BAB and number of attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

BAB and number of attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkNick
03-05-07, 06:41 PM If a 5th level fighter then took a level in barbarian (i.e. 5th fighter/1st barb), what would his BAB be?

Would it be +6 or +6/+1? :confused:
valcarde
03-05-07, 06:42 PM +6/+1.

Basically, whenever a character's BAB total can have 5 removed from it and still leave something left over, they get an extra attack (up to 3 extra attacks at most, I believe).
DarkNick
03-05-07, 06:52 PM Cheers. I thought that was the case.
IllyannaFarseer
03-05-07, 08:17 PM FYI they aren't limited to 3 attacks. It just keeps going. A 20th level fighter gets 4 per round 20/15/10/5 So a 21st level fighter should get 5.... and so on.
primemover003
03-05-07, 08:39 PM Sorry Farseer but the total number of attacks derived from BAB will always top out at 4. When you hit Epic levels your BAB doesn't go up anymore, you get an epic bonus to hit at every odd level.

You get a 2nd attack at +6, 3rd at +11, 4th at +16. Each attack beyond the primary will have a -5 penalty. So at 20th level a Barbarian will have 4 iterative attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5. Only Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins and other warrior classes will get 4 attacks. The others will top out at 2 or 3.
ciryx2k
03-06-07, 02:38 AM On that note, here's a puzzle that's always bothered me, but never come up so I didn't worry about it. Let's say you've got a straight 20 wizard who all of the sudden decides he wants to be a fighter. I know when epic characters multiclass, they still do not gain the BAB from the new class, but does the epic attack bonus allow them to get more attacks per turn so long as they don't go over 4?

Basically, would a Wizard 20/Fighter 10 get 2 attacks per turn, because his BAB is +10/+5 or would he get 3 attacks because his BAB is +10/+5 but he gets a +5 EAB that increases the totals to +15/+10/+5?
Merestil Haye
03-06-07, 06:33 AM On that note, here's a puzzle that's always bothered me, but never come up so I didn't worry about it. Let's say you've got a straight 20 wizard who all of the sudden decides he wants to be a fighter. I know when epic characters multiclass, they still do not gain the BAB from the new class, but does the epic attack bonus allow them to get more attacks per turn so long as they don't go over 4?

Basically, would a Wizard 20/Fighter 10 get 2 attacks per turn, because his BAB is +10/+5 or would he get 3 attacks because his BAB is +10/+5 but he gets a +5 EAB that increases the totals to +15/+10/+5?The wizard gains no more attacks.

An epic character's number of attacks is determined by the BAB he possesses at 20th character level. Yes this means that a character who took 20 levels as wizard and then 20 as fighter has only 2 attacks per round at a bonus of +20/+15, while a character who took 20 levels of fighter then 20 of wizard has 4 attacks per round at a bonus of +30/+25/+20/+15. They will also have different Fort and Will save bonuses.

This may seem strange, but in fact it's an example of how varying initial conditions for the developing creature results in different outcomes.

(Of course you can always design an epic feat to grant extra attacks to those with a high enough attack bonus.)
ciryx2k
03-06-07, 11:13 AM The wizard gains no more attacks.

An epic character's number of attacks is determined by the BAB he possesses at 20th character level. Yes this means that a character who took 20 levels as wizard and then 20 as fighter has only 2 attacks per round at a bonus of +20/+15, while a character who took 20 levels of fighter then 20 of wizard has 4 attacks per round at a bonus of +30/+25/+20/+15. They will also have different Fort and Will save bonuses.

This may seem strange, but in fact it's an example of how varying initial conditions for the developing creature results in different outcomes.

(Of course you can always design an epic feat to grant extra attacks to those with a high enough attack bonus.)

Very interesting. This is exactly what I was wondering about. It seems funny that, in your example, you have two characters who can basically do the same things, yet have such different stats.
KingMarl
03-06-07, 05:36 PM Are there any items out there that can give a bonus to BAB?

This would be important for, say, high-level fighter who has maxed out at a BAB of +20. If he could eke out another +1, giving him a BAB of +21, then he'd get 5 attacks at +21/+16/+11/+6/+1.

Then imagine this guy hasted. Suddenly, 6 attacks. Eek!

I suppose I can always define that it exists, it's my game, I'm just wondering if there's precedent out there.
Merestil Haye
03-06-07, 05:49 PM Are there any items out there that can give a bonus to BAB?

This would be important for, say, high-level fighter who has maxed out at a BAB of +20. If he could eke out another +1, giving him a BAB of +21, then he'd get 5 attacks at +21/+16/+11/+6/+1.It doesn't matter how high your BAB goes, you still get only four iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon. (You can houserule that away too, of course). From the SRD :Epic Attack Bonus

Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
primemover003
03-06-07, 05:50 PM Nope nothing in the game does that. If you want more attacks take the TWF tree, become a Dervish, or get a Speed weapon. Other than that 4 is the limit by design.
Marcus Majarra
03-07-07, 01:36 AM The Tome of Battle also carries a lot of martial maneuvers and abilities that grant additional attacks. To name a few, you have Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still, Island in Time, etc.
KingMarl
03-07-07, 11:39 AM It doesn't matter how high your BAB goes, you still get only four iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon. (You can houserule that away too, of course). From the SRD (quote omitted)

I don't recall there being anywhere where the number of iterative attacks is specifically limited. The example you've given talks about the epic attack bonus, not BAB. The whole reason there's an epic attack bonus instead of just increasing the BAB is so that the number of iterative attacks is limited, since they're based solely on BAB.
Merestil Haye
03-07-07, 01:50 PM I don't recall there being anywhere where the number of iterative attacks is specifically limited. The example you've given talks about the epic attack bonus, not BAB. The whole reason there's an epic attack bonus instead of just increasing the BAB is so that the number of iterative attacks is limited, since they're based solely on BAB.Creatures with types such as Dragons and Outsiders can acquire BAB of higher than 20 from their racial HD. However, they still get no more than four iterative attacks per round with manufactured weapons.

An example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar).

Note the base attack bonus (not epic attack bonus) of +22 and the attack routine with only four attacks.

Edit : Found the reference. It's in the sidebar on page 7 the Epic Level Handbook.
Nom
03-08-07, 05:25 PM And in a "side"bar (actually at the bottom) in the Epic section of the DMG
CharlieRock
03-10-07, 02:28 PM Are there any items out there that can give a bonus to BAB?
Well, after it is modified by an item, that would no longer be the BAB. ;)
(base=/=modified ... get it? :rofl:)
KingMarl
03-13-07, 08:59 AM Well, after it is modified by an item, that would no longer be the BAB. ;)
(base=/=modified ... get it? :rofl:)

Yep. Which is why I specifically asked about the BAB, as opposed to say a +1 Enhancement bonus or a +1 Insight bonus to the attack, which is what items usually are.

I'll point out that if you have an item that gives a +2 to Dexterity, you act in all ways as if you had a 2 higher Dexterity. So if something somewhere gave a +1 to BAB (specifically), it would act in all ways as if you had a BAB one higher.

But as they've pointed out, the system limits attacks to 4 with a manufactured weapon, meaning that a fighter or other high BAB class couldn't get more than 4 attacks.

Such an item would still be useful for a non-Fighter, however, or a fighter that took a few levels in a low-BAB class. Thing is, that is essentially what a weapon with the Speed property does (more or less), so it's less relevant. And Speed lets you attack again at your highest attack bonus, far superior to getting another iterative attack at -5 relative to your worst attack.
Witch
03-13-07, 09:05 AM FYI they aren't limited to 3 attacks. It just keeps going. A 20th level fighter gets 4 per round 20/15/10/5 So a 21st level fighter should get 5.... and so on.
As the ensueing discussion probably made clear, no, he wouldn't.
Ace_of_time
03-15-07, 09:49 PM The wizard could gain more attacks if he gain a hie in a monster class. the epic level limit on bab doesn't count for monster classes thats why they had to put the 4 attacks limit.
Nom
03-15-07, 10:12 PM While it's technically correct to say that the epic level limit on BAB doesn't count for racial hit dice, characters that can advance by class never advance via racial hit dice, so it's a non-issue. The only time it could come up is if a character was using a Savage Species progression with a race that had 21+ racial HD.
Ace_of_time
03-16-07, 03:38 AM We use SS book all the time it is easy to rap my mind around "if a monster is supposed to be = to 12 level at 6 level than he has to gain 12 levels" then it is for me to add level adj. each time. Plus my Players like the feel of building the monster up from 1st rather than if they get all those abilities at once.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkNick 03-05-07, 06:41 PM	If a 5th level fighter then took a level in barbarian (i.e. 5th fighter/1st barb), what would his BAB be? Would it be +6 or +6/+1? :confused:
valcarde 03-05-07, 06:42 PM	+6/+1. Basically, whenever a character's BAB total can have 5 removed from it and still leave something left over, they get an extra attack (up to 3 extra attacks at most, I believe).
DarkNick 03-05-07, 06:52 PM	Cheers. I thought that was the case.
IllyannaFarseer 03-05-07, 08:17 PM	FYI they aren't limited to 3 attacks. It just keeps going. A 20th level fighter gets 4 per round 20/15/10/5 So a 21st level fighter should get 5.... and so on.
primemover003 03-05-07, 08:39 PM	Sorry Farseer but the total number of attacks derived from BAB will always top out at 4. When you hit Epic levels your BAB doesn't go up anymore, you get an epic bonus to hit at every odd level. You get a 2nd attack at +6, 3rd at +11, 4th at +16. Each attack beyond the primary will have a -5 penalty. So at 20th level a Barbarian will have 4 iterative attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5. Only Fighters, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins and other warrior classes will get 4 attacks. The others will top out at 2 or 3.
ciryx2k 03-06-07, 02:38 AM	On that note, here's a puzzle that's always bothered me, but never come up so I didn't worry about it. Let's say you've got a straight 20 wizard who all of the sudden decides he wants to be a fighter. I know when epic characters multiclass, they still do not gain the BAB from the new class, but does the epic attack bonus allow them to get more attacks per turn so long as they don't go over 4? Basically, would a Wizard 20/Fighter 10 get 2 attacks per turn, because his BAB is +10/+5 or would he get 3 attacks because his BAB is +10/+5 but he gets a +5 EAB that increases the totals to +15/+10/+5?
Merestil Haye 03-06-07, 06:33 AM	On that note, here's a puzzle that's always bothered me, but never come up so I didn't worry about it. Let's say you've got a straight 20 wizard who all of the sudden decides he wants to be a fighter. I know when epic characters multiclass, they still do not gain the BAB from the new class, but does the epic attack bonus allow them to get more attacks per turn so long as they don't go over 4? Basically, would a Wizard 20/Fighter 10 get 2 attacks per turn, because his BAB is +10/+5 or would he get 3 attacks because his BAB is +10/+5 but he gets a +5 EAB that increases the totals to +15/+10/+5?The wizard gains no more attacks. An epic character's number of attacks is determined by the BAB he possesses at 20th character level. Yes this means that a character who took 20 levels as wizard and then 20 as fighter has only 2 attacks per round at a bonus of +20/+15, while a character who took 20 levels of fighter then 20 of wizard has 4 attacks per round at a bonus of +30/+25/+20/+15. They will also have different Fort and Will save bonuses. This may seem strange, but in fact it's an example of how varying initial conditions for the developing creature results in different outcomes. (Of course you can always design an epic feat to grant extra attacks to those with a high enough attack bonus.)
ciryx2k 03-06-07, 11:13 AM	The wizard gains no more attacks. An epic character's number of attacks is determined by the BAB he possesses at 20th character level. Yes this means that a character who took 20 levels as wizard and then 20 as fighter has only 2 attacks per round at a bonus of +20/+15, while a character who took 20 levels of fighter then 20 of wizard has 4 attacks per round at a bonus of +30/+25/+20/+15. They will also have different Fort and Will save bonuses. This may seem strange, but in fact it's an example of how varying initial conditions for the developing creature results in different outcomes. (Of course you can always design an epic feat to grant extra attacks to those with a high enough attack bonus.) Very interesting. This is exactly what I was wondering about. It seems funny that, in your example, you have two characters who can basically do the same things, yet have such different stats.
KingMarl 03-06-07, 05:36 PM	Are there any items out there that can give a bonus to BAB? This would be important for, say, high-level fighter who has maxed out at a BAB of +20. If he could eke out another +1, giving him a BAB of +21, then he'd get 5 attacks at +21/+16/+11/+6/+1. Then imagine this guy hasted. Suddenly, 6 attacks. Eek! I suppose I can always define that it exists, it's my game, I'm just wondering if there's precedent out there.
Merestil Haye 03-06-07, 05:49 PM	Are there any items out there that can give a bonus to BAB? This would be important for, say, high-level fighter who has maxed out at a BAB of +20. If he could eke out another +1, giving him a BAB of +21, then he'd get 5 attacks at +21/+16/+11/+6/+1.It doesn't matter how high your BAB goes, you still get only four iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon. (You can houserule that away too, of course). From the SRD :Epic Attack Bonus Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks), use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.
primemover003 03-06-07, 05:50 PM	Nope nothing in the game does that. If you want more attacks take the TWF tree, become a Dervish, or get a Speed weapon. Other than that 4 is the limit by design.
Marcus Majarra 03-07-07, 01:36 AM	The Tome of Battle also carries a lot of martial maneuvers and abilities that grant additional attacks. To name a few, you have Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose, Time Stands Still, Island in Time, etc.
KingMarl 03-07-07, 11:39 AM	It doesn't matter how high your BAB goes, you still get only four iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon. (You can houserule that away too, of course). From the SRD (quote omitted) I don't recall there being anywhere where the number of iterative attacks is specifically limited. The example you've given talks about the epic attack bonus, not BAB. The whole reason there's an epic attack bonus instead of just increasing the BAB is so that the number of iterative attacks is limited, since they're based solely on BAB.
Merestil Haye 03-07-07, 01:50 PM	I don't recall there being anywhere where the number of iterative attacks is specifically limited. The example you've given talks about the epic attack bonus, not BAB. The whole reason there's an epic attack bonus instead of just increasing the BAB is so that the number of iterative attacks is limited, since they're based solely on BAB.Creatures with types such as Dragons and Outsiders can acquire BAB of higher than 20 from their racial HD. However, they still get no more than four iterative attacks per round with manufactured weapons. An example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar). Note the base attack bonus (not epic attack bonus) of +22 and the attack routine with only four attacks. Edit : Found the reference. It's in the sidebar on page 7 the Epic Level Handbook.
Nom 03-08-07, 05:25 PM	And in a "side"bar (actually at the bottom) in the Epic section of the DMG
CharlieRock 03-10-07, 02:28 PM	Are there any items out there that can give a bonus to BAB? Well, after it is modified by an item, that would no longer be the BAB. ;) (base=/=modified ... get it? :rofl:)
KingMarl 03-13-07, 08:59 AM	Well, after it is modified by an item, that would no longer be the BAB. ;) (base=/=modified ... get it? :rofl:) Yep. Which is why I specifically asked about the BAB, as opposed to say a +1 Enhancement bonus or a +1 Insight bonus to the attack, which is what items usually are. I'll point out that if you have an item that gives a +2 to Dexterity, you act in all ways as if you had a 2 higher Dexterity. So if something somewhere gave a +1 to BAB (specifically), it would act in all ways as if you had a BAB one higher. But as they've pointed out, the system limits attacks to 4 with a manufactured weapon, meaning that a fighter or other high BAB class couldn't get more than 4 attacks. Such an item would still be useful for a non-Fighter, however, or a fighter that took a few levels in a low-BAB class. Thing is, that is essentially what a weapon with the Speed property does (more or less), so it's less relevant. And Speed lets you attack again at your highest attack bonus, far superior to getting another iterative attack at -5 relative to your worst attack.
Witch 03-13-07, 09:05 AM	FYI they aren't limited to 3 attacks. It just keeps going. A 20th level fighter gets 4 per round 20/15/10/5 So a 21st level fighter should get 5.... and so on. As the ensueing discussion probably made clear, no, he wouldn't.
Ace_of_time 03-15-07, 09:49 PM	The wizard could gain more attacks if he gain a hie in a monster class. the epic level limit on bab doesn't count for monster classes thats why they had to put the 4 attacks limit.
Nom 03-15-07, 10:12 PM	While it's technically correct to say that the epic level limit on BAB doesn't count for racial hit dice, characters that can advance by class never advance via racial hit dice, so it's a non-issue. The only time it could come up is if a character was using a Savage Species progression with a race that had 21+ racial HD.
Ace_of_time 03-16-07, 03:38 AM	We use SS book all the time it is easy to rap my mind around "if a monster is supposed to be = to 12 level at 6 level than he has to gain 12 levels" then it is for me to add level adj. each time. Plus my Players like the feel of building the monster up from 1st rather than if they get all those abilities at once.