Bags of Holding Type IV --> House [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bags of Holding Type IV --> House [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
05-05-07, 08:21 AM Each Bag of Holding Type IV can hold 1500 lbs and up to 250 cu. ft. of space. The bag takes the shape of whatever is placed inside. One of my players had the notion of constructing rigid borders to create "rooms". Each room would be 6.3 ft. on a side, so if .15 ft. thick metal sheets were used, it would allow for metal rooms to be created inside the bags of holding. So long as there were no sharp edges, it would not rip any of the bags (dangerous to construct, but once constructed, should last forever). Now, each wall could be built with an opening (another bag of holding).

His idea is to create a catacombs of Type IV bags of holding with six foot square rooms. For a bathroom, he was thinking of throwing a dagger into a Type I bag of holding. To avoid the issue of air, he was thinking of having Bottles of Air in each room. For water, Decanters of Endless Water.

Now, is this in any way a stretch of the rules? Should I allow the creation of a stronghold within bags of holding? What about the Bottle of Air? Is it capable of supplying air? Its description suggests it requires a standard action to draw air from it. What if the occupants were warforged? What about a warforged artificer? Should I allow him to build a forge within stacked bags of holding to create a portable crafter? What about a character with a cohort? Should I allow him to make an artificer cohort with a bag-of-holding forge? Are 6 ft. square rooms large enough for a forge?
Alcari Ambaron
05-05-07, 12:58 PM Using a bottle of air works, but only as well as wearing scuba gear all the time. You're better of using Gust of Wind seeing how it "creates a severe blast of air" suggesting that air is created, solving your problem.

Now, each wall could be built with an opening (another bag of holding).

This is all IIRC;
You cannot place a bag of holding inside another bag of holding. Both create extradimensional space and it is not possible to have an extradimensional space inside another one. Placing extra dimensional containers inside one another will result in the distruction of both (IIRC) in the specific case of BoH + Portable Hole you create a rift to the astral plane.

I would personally rule this impossible. but i'm not the DM in question.
Wopple
05-05-07, 01:50 PM This is not true. You can place Portable holes or bags of holding inside one another.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a

Although for your friend's idea I would suggest using portable holes. And the bathroom idea, while clever, would waste alot of bags of holding. (Note: I, at least, would prefer to puncture the bag from OUTSIDE with the dagger, rather than throwing it inside and running the risk it does not pierce the bag.. (shudder).

The air problem is a problem however. In the article Skip Williams does list some proposed rules for increasing air amount in different sized bags. Even so, you'll obviously need more air later. You would have to pipe the bottle of air directly to your mouth, and I believ exhale through your nose (although I am not sure about this, you may be able to breathe into a bottle of air, and still only air would ever come out)

Breathing from a bottle of air is also considered a standard action, and then you can only act while you can hold your breath. I would suggest, if you are fine with him doing this, making him somehow automate the bottle spewing out air. Maybe you could even cast permenancy of gust of wind on the bottles, I dunno. Then a suggested mechanisim for the hole or bag would just be to have someone open it every once and awhile to let out the built up carbon dioxide.

What some have done from the portable hole angle, is just make a steel cage door to it so it is safe to leave it open for air. You might even have it upside down, with a ladder you pull up, and also an alarm spell or something, to make it so people can't mess with you. You would have to rule yourself as to if you can just leave a bag of holding open indefinatly.

Hope this helps.
tos_shai_hulud
05-05-07, 02:24 PM Is there any reason that Type IV bag of holding is the largest? There is no discernable pattern that I can see for weight of the bag, weight the bag can hold, and size of the bag's inside. Is there a reason for that?
Wopple
05-05-07, 02:36 PM It is indeed pretty messed up.

4 kindof breaks alot of patterns, in fact. Weight: Goes up by 10 each time, ecept for 4. Contents weight limit, doubles every time except for 4... volume limit is double + 10 every time... but for 4. And the price *generally* goes up 2,500 each time (this works for IV too, of course). If it followed normal patterns it'd hold 500 lbs more weight, be 15 pounds lighter, and hold 60 more cubic feet of stuff. Maybe they thought it was too overpowered? Maybe there was a specific item or group of them which weighed roughly 2000 pounds they did not wan t it? I don't know. But yeah, the fact of the matter is they are weird as hell.
Bob Loblaw
05-05-07, 04:12 PM Does your player realize that the bag opening may prove ro be a hinderence? It's not all that big at 2' wide. We don't know if that's when the bag is fully open or not, the diameter will change. Nothing states that the item changes size to fit into the bag so he may not find this to be feasible.

Personally, I think he would be better served using portable holes or just getting an instant fortress.
PenderGrass
05-05-07, 04:22 PM Regardless of whether you will allow everything to happen that he wants, never tell a player they can't do it.

Let him find out any problems (if you plan on not letting him do certain things) as he constructs it.

:dragon:
****
stargate525
05-05-07, 04:29 PM The air problem is a problem however. In the article Skip Williams does list some proposed rules for increasing air amount in different sized bags. Even so, you'll obviously need more air later. You would have to pipe the bottle of air directly to your mouth, and I believ exhale through your nose (although I am not sure about this, you may be able to breathe into a bottle of air, and still only air would ever come out)

You stick the bottle underwater. The air in the bottle will rise out of the water, and the water can't actually enter it because ti's always filled with air.

And It'll look pretty too.
Wopple
05-05-07, 04:47 PM You stick the bottle underwater. The air in the bottle will rise out of the water, and the water can't actually enter it because ti's always filled with air.

And It'll look pretty too.

Clever AND it goes with the decor! I like it. Now we just need something that parcipites with carbon dioxide...

Or I suppose you could just have some friggen plants in there with a permenancy light coin stuck to the ceeling. That way you get air from bottles and get rid of excess carbon dioxide. Does anyone know if underwater plants and algae produce oxygen above the surface? Then you could have a fish tank. Fish eat some algae and plants, plants have the sun and fertalization from the fish, and they have the airation of the bottle of air. Everybody happy den.
sabrewolf
05-07-07, 01:55 AM I wonder where DnD considers about "carbon dioxide" and "oxigen".. if I remember it´s only about "air", so the underwater bottle or the gust of wind tricks would work with no problem (unless you make O2 and CO2 matter). Of course, if he intend on having any source of fire in there (a torch, a cooking fire or even a forge) he´d have to worry (a lot) about smoke...

For water, the decantler is the best choice... and for water critters it can just flood the place if wanted - a good, if last resort, defensive system as well.

For "waste disposal" some kinds of mold, jellys, oozes (like the famous G. Cube) is used in some dungeons for just that reason, so using one bag for that matter wouldnt be much of a stretch. ;) ..that is, if you can have such a being to behave to begin with... merf!

In the Arms and Equipment Guide, they have an iten called Non-Dimensional Trunk, a 10' cube bux weighting 200 pounds that can hold 10' cube of volume up to 2 tons (4000 pounds).... If he researshed a variant where he could change the outside dimensions of the box, he could build them one inside the other (or stick one inside the other some clever way) and have a whole dungeon/stronghold inside a simple 10' cube box weighting only 200 pounds (if he get two horses, phantasmal steeds or golem horses he can have it all inside a wagon). :D

Hope it helps... :)
calronmoonflower
05-07-07, 04:09 AM For "waste disposal" some kinds of mold, jellys, oozes (like the famous G. Cube) is used in some dungeons for just that reason, so using one bag for that matter wouldnt be much of a stretch. ;) ..that is, if you can have such a being to behave to begin with... merf!

Use a Bag of Devouring. They love organic material.
Tarus
05-07-07, 09:49 AM Weird player...I always went for the magnificent mansion spells made permanent or turned into an item. That one is not only bigger and nicer, I believe it comes with servants and food. lol.
tos_shai_hulud
05-07-07, 11:53 AM Weird player...I always went for the magnificent mansion spells made permanent or turned into an item. That one is not only bigger and nicer, I believe it comes with servants and food. lol.

The player really wants it for the imagery. This is why he is not asking for multiple portable holes, but whenever he goes to a town, he buys up all of the Type IV bags of holding. He even commissioned an artificer to craft him a Type V Bag of Holding.

He plans to set his bags up as an item crafting forge. He has been gathering materials. I pretty much have been going by the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook rules for building a stronghold. He really wants to start a business called Items from a Bag where you give him orders, he peers into the bag, and a few days later, out pops an item.

He has been searching for a Warforged Scout Artificer (Warforged Scout is from Monster Manual III, and we are using the Eberron Campaign Setting) to be his cohort. It is a creative idea, so I was going to allow it. The warforged doesn't need air, but I figured that if he had a forge to make magic weapons and such, he would need air for the fires, hence the bottle of air questions.
mvincent
05-07-07, 12:20 PM You can place Portable holes or bags of holding inside one another.From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a):
"Extradimensional spaces are notorious for creating spectacular and dangerous effects when placed inside each other; however, the dangers can be somewhat overrated. One bag of holding can be placed safely inside another (of course, the first bag's weight counts against what the second bag can hold)."

From the 3.0 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a):
“It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole."

Note that these rulings conflict, even though they were written by the same person. The RotG is more recent, but the FAQ is generally more official. The 3.0 FAQ is even still valid until contradicted by a more recent rule or change (which the RotG would probably constitute, but I wouldn't bet my bag on it.)

For reference: the 2ed guide to High-level campaigns, section on magic items, said:
"Extradimensional Spaces: These items tend to produce spectacular effects when one is placed within another. The following items contain extradimensional spaces: bag of holding, bag of transmuting, flatbox†, girdle of many pouches, Heward’s handy haversack, portable hole, and pouch of accessibility. The following spells produce extradimensional spaces: extradimensional pocket†, Mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion, and rope trick.

In most instances, placing one extradimensional space inside another opens a rift to the Astral Plane, casting both the items and their contents through the rift. The items and anything contained within them are scattered randomly in the infinite depths of the Astral Plane."
Dachannien
05-07-07, 12:32 PM It would be entertaining if he was inside his bag of holding working on his house, when someone came along and stole the bag. Who knows where he'd end up when he finally got out ;)
NightBreeze
05-11-07, 12:40 AM IIRC rules of the game is canon unless it contradicts some other 3.5 source

Still I don't like the idea of putting bags of holding into bags of holding....
Kuronue
05-11-07, 09:47 PM From the
Note that these rulings conflict, even though they were written by the same person. The RotG is more recent, but the FAQ is generally more official. The 3.0 FAQ is even still valid until contradicted by a more recent rule or change (which the RotG would probably constitute, but I wouldn't bet my bag on it.)

Isn't RotG 3.5? Maybe it's a change from 3.0 to 3.5?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 05-05-07, 08:21 AM	Each Bag of Holding Type IV can hold 1500 lbs and up to 250 cu. ft. of space. The bag takes the shape of whatever is placed inside. One of my players had the notion of constructing rigid borders to create "rooms". Each room would be 6.3 ft. on a side, so if .15 ft. thick metal sheets were used, it would allow for metal rooms to be created inside the bags of holding. So long as there were no sharp edges, it would not rip any of the bags (dangerous to construct, but once constructed, should last forever). Now, each wall could be built with an opening (another bag of holding). His idea is to create a catacombs of Type IV bags of holding with six foot square rooms. For a bathroom, he was thinking of throwing a dagger into a Type I bag of holding. To avoid the issue of air, he was thinking of having Bottles of Air in each room. For water, Decanters of Endless Water. Now, is this in any way a stretch of the rules? Should I allow the creation of a stronghold within bags of holding? What about the Bottle of Air? Is it capable of supplying air? Its description suggests it requires a standard action to draw air from it. What if the occupants were warforged? What about a warforged artificer? Should I allow him to build a forge within stacked bags of holding to create a portable crafter? What about a character with a cohort? Should I allow him to make an artificer cohort with a bag-of-holding forge? Are 6 ft. square rooms large enough for a forge?
Alcari Ambaron 05-05-07, 12:58 PM	Using a bottle of air works, but only as well as wearing scuba gear all the time. You're better of using Gust of Wind seeing how it "creates a severe blast of air" suggesting that air is created, solving your problem. Now, each wall could be built with an opening (another bag of holding). This is all IIRC; You cannot place a bag of holding inside another bag of holding. Both create extradimensional space and it is not possible to have an extradimensional space inside another one. Placing extra dimensional containers inside one another will result in the distruction of both (IIRC) in the specific case of BoH + Portable Hole you create a rift to the astral plane. I would personally rule this impossible. but i'm not the DM in question.
Wopple 05-05-07, 01:50 PM	This is not true. You can place Portable holes or bags of holding inside one another. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a Although for your friend's idea I would suggest using portable holes. And the bathroom idea, while clever, would waste alot of bags of holding. (Note: I, at least, would prefer to puncture the bag from OUTSIDE with the dagger, rather than throwing it inside and running the risk it does not pierce the bag.. (shudder). The air problem is a problem however. In the article Skip Williams does list some proposed rules for increasing air amount in different sized bags. Even so, you'll obviously need more air later. You would have to pipe the bottle of air directly to your mouth, and I believ exhale through your nose (although I am not sure about this, you may be able to breathe into a bottle of air, and still only air would ever come out) Breathing from a bottle of air is also considered a standard action, and then you can only act while you can hold your breath. I would suggest, if you are fine with him doing this, making him somehow automate the bottle spewing out air. Maybe you could even cast permenancy of gust of wind on the bottles, I dunno. Then a suggested mechanisim for the hole or bag would just be to have someone open it every once and awhile to let out the built up carbon dioxide. What some have done from the portable hole angle, is just make a steel cage door to it so it is safe to leave it open for air. You might even have it upside down, with a ladder you pull up, and also an alarm spell or something, to make it so people can't mess with you. You would have to rule yourself as to if you can just leave a bag of holding open indefinatly. Hope this helps.
tos_shai_hulud 05-05-07, 02:24 PM	Is there any reason that Type IV bag of holding is the largest? There is no discernable pattern that I can see for weight of the bag, weight the bag can hold, and size of the bag's inside. Is there a reason for that?
Wopple 05-05-07, 02:36 PM	It is indeed pretty messed up. 4 kindof breaks alot of patterns, in fact. Weight: Goes up by 10 each time, ecept for 4. Contents weight limit, doubles every time except for 4... volume limit is double + 10 every time... but for 4. And the price generally goes up 2,500 each time (this works for IV too, of course). If it followed normal patterns it'd hold 500 lbs more weight, be 15 pounds lighter, and hold 60 more cubic feet of stuff. Maybe they thought it was too overpowered? Maybe there was a specific item or group of them which weighed roughly 2000 pounds they did not wan t it? I don't know. But yeah, the fact of the matter is they are weird as hell.
Bob Loblaw 05-05-07, 04:12 PM	Does your player realize that the bag opening may prove ro be a hinderence? It's not all that big at 2' wide. We don't know if that's when the bag is fully open or not, the diameter will change. Nothing states that the item changes size to fit into the bag so he may not find this to be feasible. Personally, I think he would be better served using portable holes or just getting an instant fortress.
PenderGrass 05-05-07, 04:22 PM	Regardless of whether you will allow everything to happen that he wants, never tell a player they can't do it. Let him find out any problems (if you plan on not letting him do certain things) as he constructs it. :dragon: ****
stargate525 05-05-07, 04:29 PM	The air problem is a problem however. In the article Skip Williams does list some proposed rules for increasing air amount in different sized bags. Even so, you'll obviously need more air later. You would have to pipe the bottle of air directly to your mouth, and I believ exhale through your nose (although I am not sure about this, you may be able to breathe into a bottle of air, and still only air would ever come out) You stick the bottle underwater. The air in the bottle will rise out of the water, and the water can't actually enter it because ti's always filled with air. And It'll look pretty too.
Wopple 05-05-07, 04:47 PM	You stick the bottle underwater. The air in the bottle will rise out of the water, and the water can't actually enter it because ti's always filled with air. And It'll look pretty too. Clever AND it goes with the decor! I like it. Now we just need something that parcipites with carbon dioxide... Or I suppose you could just have some friggen plants in there with a permenancy light coin stuck to the ceeling. That way you get air from bottles and get rid of excess carbon dioxide. Does anyone know if underwater plants and algae produce oxygen above the surface? Then you could have a fish tank. Fish eat some algae and plants, plants have the sun and fertalization from the fish, and they have the airation of the bottle of air. Everybody happy den.
sabrewolf 05-07-07, 01:55 AM	I wonder where DnD considers about "carbon dioxide" and "oxigen".. if I remember it´s only about "air", so the underwater bottle or the gust of wind tricks would work with no problem (unless you make O2 and CO2 matter). Of course, if he intend on having any source of fire in there (a torch, a cooking fire or even a forge) he´d have to worry (a lot) about smoke... For water, the decantler is the best choice... and for water critters it can just flood the place if wanted - a good, if last resort, defensive system as well. For "waste disposal" some kinds of mold, jellys, oozes (like the famous G. Cube) is used in some dungeons for just that reason, so using one bag for that matter wouldnt be much of a stretch. ;) ..that is, if you can have such a being to behave to begin with... merf! In the Arms and Equipment Guide, they have an iten called Non-Dimensional Trunk, a 10' cube bux weighting 200 pounds that can hold 10' cube of volume up to 2 tons (4000 pounds).... If he researshed a variant where he could change the outside dimensions of the box, he could build them one inside the other (or stick one inside the other some clever way) and have a whole dungeon/stronghold inside a simple 10' cube box weighting only 200 pounds (if he get two horses, phantasmal steeds or golem horses he can have it all inside a wagon). :D Hope it helps... :)
calronmoonflower 05-07-07, 04:09 AM	For "waste disposal" some kinds of mold, jellys, oozes (like the famous G. Cube) is used in some dungeons for just that reason, so using one bag for that matter wouldnt be much of a stretch. ;) ..that is, if you can have such a being to behave to begin with... merf! Use a Bag of Devouring. They love organic material.
Tarus 05-07-07, 09:49 AM	Weird player...I always went for the magnificent mansion spells made permanent or turned into an item. That one is not only bigger and nicer, I believe it comes with servants and food. lol.
tos_shai_hulud 05-07-07, 11:53 AM	Weird player...I always went for the magnificent mansion spells made permanent or turned into an item. That one is not only bigger and nicer, I believe it comes with servants and food. lol. The player really wants it for the imagery. This is why he is not asking for multiple portable holes, but whenever he goes to a town, he buys up all of the Type IV bags of holding. He even commissioned an artificer to craft him a Type V Bag of Holding. He plans to set his bags up as an item crafting forge. He has been gathering materials. I pretty much have been going by the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook rules for building a stronghold. He really wants to start a business called Items from a Bag where you give him orders, he peers into the bag, and a few days later, out pops an item. He has been searching for a Warforged Scout Artificer (Warforged Scout is from Monster Manual III, and we are using the Eberron Campaign Setting) to be his cohort. It is a creative idea, so I was going to allow it. The warforged doesn't need air, but I figured that if he had a forge to make magic weapons and such, he would need air for the fires, hence the bottle of air questions.
mvincent 05-07-07, 12:20 PM	You can place Portable holes or bags of holding inside one another.From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a): "Extradimensional spaces are notorious for creating spectacular and dangerous effects when placed inside each other; however, the dangers can be somewhat overrated. One bag of holding can be placed safely inside another (of course, the first bag's weight counts against what the second bag can hold)." From the 3.0 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a): “It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole." Note that these rulings conflict, even though they were written by the same person. The RotG is more recent, but the FAQ is generally more official. The 3.0 FAQ is even still valid until contradicted by a more recent rule or change (which the RotG would probably constitute, but I wouldn't bet my bag on it.) For reference: the 2ed guide to High-level campaigns, section on magic items, said: "Extradimensional Spaces: These items tend to produce spectacular effects when one is placed within another. The following items contain extradimensional spaces: bag of holding, bag of transmuting, flatbox†, girdle of many pouches, Heward’s handy haversack, portable hole, and pouch of accessibility. The following spells produce extradimensional spaces: extradimensional pocket†, Mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion, and rope trick. In most instances, placing one extradimensional space inside another opens a rift to the Astral Plane, casting both the items and their contents through the rift. The items and anything contained within them are scattered randomly in the infinite depths of the Astral Plane."
Dachannien 05-07-07, 12:32 PM	It would be entertaining if he was inside his bag of holding working on his house, when someone came along and stole the bag. Who knows where he'd end up when he finally got out ;)
NightBreeze 05-11-07, 12:40 AM	IIRC rules of the game is canon unless it contradicts some other 3.5 source Still I don't like the idea of putting bags of holding into bags of holding....
Kuronue 05-11-07, 09:47 PM	From the Note that these rulings conflict, even though they were written by the same person. The RotG is more recent, but the FAQ is generally more official. The 3.0 FAQ is even still valid until contradicted by a more recent rule or change (which the RotG would probably constitute, but I wouldn't bet my bag on it.) Isn't RotG 3.5? Maybe it's a change from 3.0 to 3.5?