Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lootus 09-12-07, 08:18 AM	Trying to Categorize Terrain Rules In my ongoing quest to learn and categorize tactical movement on various terrain, I've come across a small conundrum. There seem to be two sets of rules going on here - one of them makes difficult terrains cost more than 1 square of movement to enter, and the other set of rules deals with the Balance skill. To start things off, I need to verify if the following assumption is true: A Balance check is only required in the following situations: Any movement over a narrow surface (less than 13 in. wide) Running or charging over a difficult surface (specifically, uneven flagstone, hewn stone, steep slope [downhill*], severely slippery surface, steep stairs*) Move on angled roof without changing altitude Move up and down across peak of angled roof Grease spell *from DMG, where they further elaborated on movement on slopes and stairs. Is this correct? If so, does “Accelerated movment” in the Balance skill description only apply to “a” “c”, and "e"? (because in "b", you're already charging, and "d" is just an oddball) In the case of "b" (4 of which are exceptions to the normal "you can't charge/run over difficult surface" rule), are you considered "Balancing" while charging across those surfaces? (Flat-footed [unless 5+ ranks in Balance], if you take damage, requires Balance check to remain standing) How does this interact with the movement from the charge and squares that cost 2 to enter (severely slippery, steep stairs, or combinations such as hewn stone with dense rubble, etc.) Severely slippery (ice sheet), and steep slopes both have a DC 10 Balance check to charge into them as well as a modifier to Balance checks (+5, +2). Therefore, their DCs to charge are actually 15 and 12, correct? Grease spell - this spell makes you use a DC 10 Balance check to move at half speed (like you're on a 12 in. narrow surface). Erm... So what happens if you grease a narrow surface, is it still DC 10 or do you move at 1/4 speed instead of half speed? (By all rights, I believe this spell should make greased squares that cost 4 squares of movement to enter, and have a +10 modifier to Balance checks.) Finally, am I correct that the cost of 2 squares of movement to enter a square with difficult terrain should never be considered to be the same as the move at half speed penalty while balancing - otherwise you’d have to make balance checks every round walking through light undergrowth or a dungeon with uneven flagstones. Right? The interaction going on here seems very confusing and contradictory at times. Any help is much apprecated, thanks. From SRD Hampered Movement http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#hamperedMovement Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move. If more than one condition applies, multiply together all additional costs that apply. (This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling) In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.) You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement. Balance skill http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm Balance DCs Narrow Surface Balance DC* ----------------------------------- 7-12 inches wide 10 2-6 inches wide 15 Less than 2 inches wide 20 Difficult Surface Balance DC* ----------------------------------- Uneven flagstone 10** Hewn stone floor 10** Sloped or angled floor 10** *Add modifiers from Narrow Surface Modifiers, below, as appropriate. **Only if running or charging. Failure by 4 or less means the character can’t run or charge, but may otherwise act normally. Surface DC Modifier* ---------------------------- Lightly obstructed +2 Severely obstructed +5 Lightly slippery +2 Severely slippery +5 Sloped or angled +2 *Add the appropriate modifier to the Balance DC of a narrow surface. These modifiers stack. Check You can walk on a precarious surface. A successful check lets you move at half your speed along the surface for 1 round. A failure by 4 or less means you can’t move for 1 round. A failure by 5 or more means you fall. The difficulty varies with the surface, as follows: Being Attacked while Balancing You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing. Accelerated Movement You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a -5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge. Charge Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move. Movement During a Charge You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent. You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge. If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. Grease http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm Grease Conjuration (Creation) Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target or Area: One object or a 10-ft. square Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: No A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. This save is repeated on your turn each round that the creature remains within the area. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin. Material Component A bit of pork rind or butter. Reference - Various terrain and surfaces: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/wildernessWeatherEnvironment.htm
perdera 09-12-07, 11:33 AM	That's a lot of stuff. Let's see. If you made a Balance check to move quicker across difficult terrain, then yes you're considered Balancing as long as you're on that terrain. If there is difficult terrain you can make a Balance check (with a -5 penalty) to move through it at normal speed. I think the 'you can make a Balance check to move at half-normal speed' and the 'you can move through this difficult terrain at half-normal speed' is redundant. So, everyone can walk through difficult terrain at half-normal speed (not flat-footed), or, you can make a Balance check (with a -5 penalty) to move through it at your normal speed (flat-footed without 5+ ranks in Balance). In the example of Grease, everyone has to make a DC 10 Balance check to move through it at half-speed, or they can make a DC 15 Balance check to move through it at normal speed. Basically there are four options that exist for pretty much any time a Balance check is required: make the required Balance check and you can move at half-speed, make the Balance check with a -5 penalty added on and you can move at normal speed, fail the Balance check and wobble unsteadily in place, or fail the Balance check (by 5 or more) and fall. Also, I don't think Balance should be omnipotent. I don't think I would ever allow a Charge or Run up a steep incline without Epic ranks in Balance...but Grease, Spike Stones, etc, sure. For using Grease in extreme circumstances I'd definitely accumulate penalties in some fashion. If someone is Balancing across a 12in wide bridge with Grease on it I'd stack things in a somewhat conservative fashion: DC 15 Balance check to move at 1/4 speed, DC 20 Balance check to move at 1/2 speed as per Accelerated Movement. I realize they don't seem that high, your Rogue will probably dance across that...but your Wizard, Clerics and Fighters in Heavy Armor...that's a complete roadblock.
Lootus 09-12-07, 08:08 PM	That's a lot of stuff. Let's see. If you made a Balance check to move quicker across difficult terrain, then yes you're considered Balancing as long as you're on that terrain. Let me give an example of what I mean, just to make sure that I am explaining it correctly. Let's say a combat is taking place in a dungeon room with a floor made of flagstones (no penalty to movement), and there's also some uneven flagstones (again, no penalty to movement). A PC (30 ft. speed) is 12 squares away from his target across the room (clear path). The PC would like to make a charge action to attack his target. Unfortunately, there's a square of uneven flagstones in the way. If the PC charges, he'll hit the uneven flagstone square and have to make a DC 10 Balance check. If he succeeds, he moves into the uneven flagstone square at half speed, effectively costing him an extra square of movement to charge across. At this point, he doesn't have enough movement left to make it to his target. He could have walked over there with a double move, however. Another example would be as above, however the PC can reach his target with the charge, even considering the extra movement costs. In this case, while on the uneven flagstones, the PC is flat-footed, and any damage requires another Balance check to avoid falling. This makes targets charging through squares with difficult terrain* extremely vulnerable to AoO's. *since you can't normally charge through difficult terrain, this refers only to the four exceptions that have rules listed for charging through them I am questioning the parts about half speed applying to movement for this type of balance check to run or charge, and the part about being flat-footed and needing a Balance check to remain standing if damage is taken. If there is difficult terrain you can make a Balance check (with a -5 penalty) to move through it at normal speed. I think the 'you can make a Balance check to move at half-normal speed' and the 'you can move through this difficult terrain at half-normal speed' is redundant. So, everyone can walk through difficult terrain at half-normal speed (not flat-footed), or, you can make a Balance check (with a -5 penalty) to move through it at your normal speed (flat-footed without 5+ ranks in Balance). Actually, you've illustrated my problem quite well. There is no Balance DC to move through difficult terrain at normal speed, only to move over a narrow surface at normal speed. It seems when they wrote the rules they were thinking the same thing, that the DC 10 Balance check to move half speed and costing 2 squares of movement to enter were redundant. I think that in the end, the "extra square" designers must have won out, because extra movement cost is all over the place in the rules, whereas I think there are only 10 places in the rules where an actual Balance DC is listed (not counting spells). If you want to move through light undergrowth at normal speed (by taking -5 on a Balance check), there is no Balance DC in the first place to roll against. Finally, if all extra movement required to enter a square with difficult terrain carried an implicit DC 10 Balance check, there are plenty of characters that would get below 10 when taking 10 on a Balance check (due to armor check penalties), and second, during combat rounds you wouldn't be able to take 10 on this terrain (the implication there being that everyone in combat needs to make Balance checks whenever they move). Also, I don't think Balance should be omnipotent. I don't think I would ever allow a Charge or Run up a steep incline without Epic ranks in Balance...but Grease, Spike Stones, etc, sure. As noted, the charge and run actions only apply to downhill movement on a steep slope.
perdera 09-13-07, 09:54 AM	Actually, you've illustrated my problem quite well. There is no Balance DC to move through difficult terrain at normal speed, only to move over a narrow surface at normal speed. Maybe you didn't see the entire chart in the SRD? It's formatted poorly (side-by-side), but it lists the following for Balance DCs: Narrow Surface Balance DC 7-12 inches wide 10 2-6 inches wide 15 Less than 2 inches wide 20 Difficult Surface Uneven flagstone 10 Hewn stone floor 10 Sloped or angled floor 10 The Accelerated Movement maneuver from Balance allows you to make these Balance checks with a -5 penalty to move through/across these surfaces at normal speed. Yeah, I know it's weird that they have DCs when usually no Balance check is called for, but they're just there as a base so that you can apply them to any situation, I think. In your first example, anyone could move through that uneven flagstone square at half-speed, but your character wants to charge through it. Once he hits it he needs to execute the Accelerated Movement maneuver of Balance. If he succeeds on a DC 15 Balance check he can proceed with his charge as normal, that square would only cost one square of movement. If he fails his charge is broken, and that square costs two squares of movement, but I'd say he could continue to double-move if he wanted. If he fails by five or more he falls on his face. For your second example, I don't think it's so bad as you think. Most people will choose to move across a difficult surface at half-speed and not be flat-footed. If you're attempting the Balance check to charge or move more quickly across a difficult surface you probably have the 5 ranks in Balance that makes it so you're not flat-footed. Likewise, you'll probably make the recurring Balance checks due to any damage you take (usually DC 10, DC 15 if it was an AoO during an Accelerated Movement maneuver)...and if not, well, that's the point of the skill isn't it? Don't try to wobble through things if you're no good at it. Light Undergrowth isn't a valid situation to use Balance. As noted on the table in the SRD, Balance is used to deal with actual problems/flaws in the surface you are walking across...not to somehow make you able to dance through a sea of four-foot high ferns. Balance won't cure every movement penalty in every situation, just when the penalty is caused by the floor surface, and even then I'm sure there are situations where it wouldn't apply--could I Balance through caltrops? (I'd say no) I think an important distinction to make is Difficult Terrain versus Difficult Surface...and actually, given that, I don't think I'd allow you to Accelerated Movement through Spike Stones...it's more of an impediment like Light Undergrowth than an unstable/wobbly surface. Also note that I think the charts in the SRD can be combined to come up with good DCs for most situations, I'd apply the 'Narrow Surface Modifiers' to the 'Difficult Surface' DCs too. Uneven Flagstone = DC 10. Severely Slippery Uneven Flagstone = DC 10 + 5. I hope I'm helping some, hehe.
Lootus 09-13-07, 11:05 PM	This is definitely great input. What I’d like to do is put everything in one reference sheet, but the rules as they are presented are making it difficult for me to do that. I see a couple of things that may be causing some of my problems. First, under Balance we have uneven flagstone, hewn stone, and slope listed as our 3 difficult surfaces. But in the DMG, only one of these is described as costing 2 squares of movement to move into: Steep Slope (even then, only going uphill). Maybe uneven flagstone and hewn stone are also supposed to cost 2 squares to move into? Second, it could be that the rules for running or charging through terrain are somehow part of the same mechanic as the "Accelerated Movement" section of the Balance skill. However, if this is the case, I could use a lot of clarification about how it's worded. It looks pretty specific to moving across narrow surfaces, since that's at half speed. Difficult terrain can cost 2 squares to move into, 4 squares, or more...so surely taking -5 on your Balance check doesn't mean you can move normal speed across extremely difficult terrain... ...or does it... See, here's what I'm interpreting from the rules on this: Charging or running on difficult surface: Rule #1 – You can’t do it. Rule #2 – Ok, if you simply must try this, you have to get up to your normal speed by making a DC 10 Balance check. You take -5 to your check for each multiplier you have to use to get up to normal movement: Half move (2 sq.) to normal: DC 10 (-5 to check) 1/4 move (4 sq.) to normal: DC 10 (-10 to check) 1/8 move (8 sq.) to normal: DC 10 (-15 to check) 1/16 move (16 sq.) to normal: DC 10 (-20 to check) Then stack all modifiers from surface conditions and add to check DCs. A normal charge requires 2 checks, a restricted charge requires 1 check. The same applies for running, but it requires a different number of Balance checks depending on how fast you’re running. edit: A normal move takes 1 check, a double move takes 2 checks. If it's a narrow surface, use the appropriate narrow surface DC in place of the DC 10. So before you can run or charge over a difficult surface you've got some work to do: Step 1: Calculate movement cost to enter a square. Calculate total Balance DC modifiers. This is where some surfaces cause some confusion because they are not described as costing 2 squares of movement: Uneven flagstone, hewn stone, moving downhill on steep slope (these are noted as requiring the DC 10 Balance to run/charge, but no extra move cost to enter) Light rubble, scree, lightly slippery (these eavh have a modifier to Balance checks but no extra move cost to enter, therefore, a normal surface (no extra move cost) with these conditions does not require any Balance check to run/charge or add any move cost to enter) Step 2: Roll Balance checks for each move (DC 10 + surface mods), applying appropriate check penalty from above. Any more help is much appreciated - I'd love to never have to research this again! :) p.s. questions on Grease spell will have to wait for further info... edit: there are some other things can cause a square to cost 2 to enter but are not usable with the Balance skill: Caltrops, Spike Stones, Blindness/Darkness, and Crowds
Lootus 09-15-07, 09:36 AM	It looks like I need to back up a bit and verify a couple of basic things before delving any further into the Balance rules. 1. Does Uneven Flagstone, Hewn Stone, and moving downhill on a Steep Slope cost 2 squares of movement to enter? 2. Does a normal surface that is covered in Light Rubble, Scree, or Lightly Slippery (including wet or a dusting of snow) cost 2 squares of movement to enter?
perdera 09-17-07, 05:22 PM	It looks like I need to back up a bit and verify a couple of basic things before delving any further into the Balance rules. 1. Does Uneven Flagstone, Hewn Stone, and moving downhill on a Steep Slope cost 2 squares of movement to enter? 2. Does a normal surface that is covered in Light Rubble, Scree, or Lightly Slippery (including wet or a dusting of snow) cost 2 squares of movement to enter? These may help (and yes I misinformed you previously, whee!): Dungeon Terrain (includes uneven flagstone, hewn stone, rubble, etc): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm Wilderness Terrain (includes slopes): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm 1) No. 2) No.
Lootus 09-17-07, 08:11 PM	These may help (and yes I misinformed you previously, whee!): Dungeon Terrain (includes uneven flagstone, hewn stone, rubble, etc): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm Wilderness Terrain (includes slopes): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm 1) No. 2) No. Right, as far as I know that's the case, unless they've been through a revision in a book somewhere (anyone?). For example, it's not the same rules, but on pg. 151 of the Miniatures Handbook (Mass Battle Rules section), scree is listed as a difficult terrain. This is not a good example since it's a different set of rules than normal D&D combat, but if anything similar has been printed somewhere that revises these to the "Difficult/Costs 2 Squares" standard, some things would start making a lot more sense. Thanks for your ongoing help with this, Perdera. I'd love to master terrain before the current edition expires. Otherwise, I'll just leave these out of the equation for any other questions.
Lootus 09-17-07, 10:16 PM	So Accelerated Movement is exactly the same as the Running or Charging note? i.e. - when you charge across a difficult surface, it's not just a DC 10 Balance check, but a DC 10 Balance check with a -5 penalty (or two checks if you charge up to twice your speed)?? What happens if you want to charge twice your speed over Dense Rubble? (Balance modifier +2, costs 2 squares to move into) Is it two DC 12 Balance checks at -5 each? I can find only two types of terrain that state "running or charging are impossible" (Natural Stone and Heavy Undergrowth). Does this imply that accelerated movement on any other difficult surface is possible, and falls under the rules in the Balance skill? Accelerated Movement You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a -5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof) that you charge. Here's one reason I'm confused - this part is saying you are using Balance to move normal speed, which means your speed must have been less than normal. But as we've determined, speed is not reduced when traveling over uneven flagstone or hewn stone, although the Balance check still applies when charging/running over it. So, perhaps the DC starts at 10 (for squares with no extra cost to move into, but have some hinderance), and for terrain that costs more than 1 square to move into, a -5 penalty is applied to the Balance check for each multiplier you need to reduce to get down to normal speed? Charge over Hewn Stone: DC 10 Charge over Ice Sheet: DC 15 (10 +5 from modifier), -5 penalty to check (due to costing 2 squares of movement) Charge down Steep Stairs covered in Ice Sheet: DC 15 (10 +5 modifier), -10 penalty to check (due to costing a combined 4 squares of movement) Difficult Surface Balance DC ----------------------------------- Uneven flagstone 10* Hewn stone floor 10* Sloped or angled floor 10* *Only if running or charging. Failure by 4 or less means the character can’t run or charge, but may otherwise act normally. Surface DC Modifier* ---------------------------- Lightly obstructed +2 Severely obstructed +5 Lightly slippery +2 Severely slippery +5 Sloped or angled +2 *Add the appropriate modifier to the Balance DC of a narrow surface. These modifiers stack. Are any of these coming close to the correct way to handle movement on these surfaces? :confused: