Barbarian rage and unconsciousness... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian rage and unconsciousness... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tichrimo
05-24-07, 08:01 PM The problem:
According to our interpretation of the barbarian rage class feature (and a dash of common sense), you cannot be angry while unconscious; rage ends if you're knocked below 0 hp.

According to the FAQ, this is not the case.

Further musings:
If you consider a barbarian's rage an "adrenaline rush", it almost works. It doesn't require concentration to start raging; it doesn't require concentration to maintain raging; you can't concentrate while raging... These all play into the "adrenaline" analogy nicely.

But how can you "voluntarily" end said adrenaline rush, then? You can somehow suppress your bloodlust and stop raging at the drop of a hat? That's my stumbling block.

If it were fixed duration (your rage lasts x rounds, period) then I'd be fine with it persisting into unconsciousness -- the adrenaline analogy fits perfectly. However, as soon as that first tinge of grey appears, (i.e. voluntarily ending a rage), I see a slippery slope of other possibilities/theories.

Some options:

Rage is a variable-period, semi-conscious effort that can be ended voluntarily; rage ends when unconscious. (i.e. Our interpretation to date.)

As a possible extension, grant Diehard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#diehard) as a bonus feat to barbarians at 5th level?

Rage is a fixed-period unconscious effort that cannot be ended voluntarily; rage persists when unconscious.

Allow a concentration check to end a rage early? DC[15+number of rounds of rage remaining] or something like that...
Or, expend a standard action to suppress your rage for a round (like you can do with SR)?

Rage is a variable-period, semi-conscious effort that can be ended voluntarily; rage (somehow) persists when unconscious. (i.e. Accept the FAQ's ruling.)
Don't use barbarians. Ever. :)

Your thoughts?
bobothechimp
05-24-07, 08:13 PM My thoughts? You're thinking too hard and overcomplicating things.
Morwen
05-24-07, 08:14 PM The problem with ruling that a rage ends when you drop to 0 or less hit points is that every Barbarian above level 5 or so will instantly die at that point (since they lose the Con-bonus, which is always at least 10-hit-points worth at those levels). That ruling would cause me to never play a Barbarian. Ever.

Use the FAQ ruling, as it is the most correct one and doesn't insta-kill characters that drop to 0 ;)
allenchan
05-24-07, 08:17 PM 3. Definitely 3.
Tichrimo
05-24-07, 10:15 PM My thoughts? You're thinking too hard and overcomplicating things.

Should've prefaced my post -- my game (DM and players alike) is comprised of 50% min/maxing and 50% rules-lawyering... Thought exercises like this are half the fun for us. :)

The problem with ruling that a rage ends when you drop to 0 or less hit points is that every Barbarian above level 5 or so will instantly die at that point (since they lose the Con-bonus, which is always at least 10-hit-points worth at those levels). That ruling would cause me to never play a Barbarian. Ever.

Use the FAQ ruling, as it is the most correct one and doesn't insta-kill characters that drop to 0

This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill.
Bob Loblaw
05-24-07, 11:28 PM This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill.

This won't actually solve your problem. What happens when someone decides to use nonlethal damage on your barbarian? He'll die since he'll go unconscious. If all barbarians got this ability, it would probably be well known just like their rage. There would be no reason not to knock 'em out. It would be funny to watch a bunch of barbarians running from merciless weapons.
Tichrimo
05-24-07, 11:39 PM True, true... Or heck, the sleep/deeper slumber spells suddenly become deadly.
PenderGrass
05-25-07, 04:24 AM This won't actually solve your problem. What happens when someone decides to use nonlethal damage on your barbarian? He'll die since he'll go unconscious. If all barbarians got this ability, it would probably be well known just like their rage. There would be no reason not to knock 'em out. It would be funny to watch a bunch of barbarians running from merciless weapons.
I don't think you have non-lethal damage properly defined here.

In other words, a barbarian knocked-out by only non-lethal damage is not going to be in danger of dying.

:dragon:
****
Bob Loblaw
05-25-07, 08:21 AM I don't think you have non-lethal damage properly defined here.

In other words, a barbarian knocked-out by only non-lethal damage is not going to be in danger of dying.

:dragon:
****

If he's at negative hit points and comes out of his rage he would die.
PenderGrass
05-25-07, 01:16 PM If he's at negative hit points and comes out of his rage he would die.
For the sake of your players, I highly suggest you read how non-lethal damage works. It is in the PHB.

But here are a couple clues:

1. Non-lethal
2. "Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not 'real' damage." - from the SRD/PHB

:dragon:
****
olshanski_home
05-25-07, 02:46 PM 3. Accept the FAQ.

If you really want to ask how a barbarian can rage while unconscious, you might also ask how a gargantuan creature can support its own weight, how plants can walk around, how dragons can breathe fire, or how a person can turn bat-turds into fireballs.
PenderGrass
05-25-07, 02:54 PM ...or how a person can turn bat-turds into fireballs.
"Shikaka... Shikaka! Shikasha! Ohhh! Shishkabab. Shawshank Redemption. ShicaaaaGO! You're outta there! Go on, I gotcha, you're out."

:dragon:
****
Bob Loblaw
05-25-07, 11:34 PM For the sake of your players, I highly suggest you read how non-lethal damage works. It is in the PHB.

But here are a couple clues:

1. Non-lethal
2. "Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not 'real' damage." - from the SRD/PHB

:dragon:
****
So when his nonlethal damage is greater than his current hit points, he wouldn't fall unconscious? If the barbarian is at -1 hit point (he has Diehard so he's still up and fighting) and he takes 9 nonlethal, what happens? If I'm reading the rules correctly, he falls unconscious.
runestar
05-25-07, 11:46 PM This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill.
Which really just solves the wrong problem.:P
Nathreet
05-26-07, 12:29 AM I'd say it's a subconcious effect, like adrenaline, that gets turned on/off by concious thought. Not only does rage continue when a barbarian goes unconcious, the barbarian is unable to end it while unconcious. Done.

Think of it as like salivating. You can trigger it with the right thoughts, but it's not a concious action. I have another example that's more clear, but less clean: erections.
MarkB
05-26-07, 06:08 AM This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill.
Diehard won't prevent you dying from lack of hitpoints when your CON score drops as rage ends. The feats even points out specifically that you still die at -10 hitpoints.

Furthermore, a barbarian who's raging and has diehard is unlikely to voluntarily fall unconscious once he's in negative hitpoints. That means he's still up and fighting, and a valid target, which means he'll most likely get hit again, and that hit will kill him stone dead.

If you really want a viable alternative to rage continuing whilst unconscious, grant barbarians an ability similar to the Healing Factor shifter feat from Eberron, allowing their strong metabolism to heal them a number of hitpoints equal to twice their level when their rage ends.
PenderGrass
05-26-07, 04:58 PM So when his nonlethal damage is greater than his current hit points, he wouldn't fall unconscious? If the barbarian is at -1 hit point (he has Diehard so he's still up and fighting) and he takes 9 nonlethal, what happens? If I'm reading the rules correctly, he falls unconscious.
Let me put it this way.

A barbarian is raging. He has gained 10 hit points from his rage. His total hit points are now 40.

He takes a massive non-lethal beating for 40 points.

This equals his current hit point total.

His non-lethal total is zero.

He falls to the ground unconscious.

Eventually, his rage ends - he loses the 10 hit points he had from raging.

His new hit point total is 30 (down from the previous 40 total).

His non-lethal total is now negative 10.

Notice that the barbarian's hit points haven't been touched (except by adjusting for the rage and non-rage calculations). Non-lethal damage is not hit point damage.

A person could take 5 billion points of non-lethal damage and he will never die from it.

That is why it is called non-lethal.

:dragon:
****
MarkB
05-26-07, 05:08 PM Let me put it this way.

A barbarian is raging. He has gained 10 hit points from his rage. His total hit points are now 40.

He takes a massive non-lethal beating for 40 points.

This equals his current hit point total.

His non-lethal total is zero.

He falls to the ground unconscious.

Eventually, his rage ends - he loses the 10 hit points he had from raging.

His new hit point total is 30 (down from the previous 40 total).

His non-lethal total is now negative 10.

Notice that the barbarian's hit points haven't been touched (except by adjusting for the rage and non-rage calculations). Non-lethal damage is not hit point damage.

A person could take 5 billion points of non-lethal damage and he will never die from it.

That is why it is called non-lethal.

:dragon:
****
I believe the situation Bob Loblaw was suggesting was the fairly unlikely one of the barbarian receiving enough lethal damage that he'd be dead if he wasn't raging, and unconscious if he didn't have Diehard, and then taking enough non-lethal damage to knock him out.

In which case, if you rule that barbarians cease raging when unconscious, the barbarian would indeed die.

Not exactly a commonplace combination of factors, though.
Bob Loblaw
05-26-07, 05:53 PM Let me put it this way.

A barbarian is raging. He has gained 10 hit points from his rage. His total hit points are now 40.

He takes a massive non-lethal beating for 40 points.

This equals his current hit point total.

His non-lethal total is zero.

He falls to the ground unconscious.

Eventually, his rage ends - he loses the 10 hit points he had from raging.

His new hit point total is 30 (down from the previous 40 total).

His non-lethal total is now negative 10.

Notice that the barbarian's hit points haven't been touched (except by adjusting for the rage and non-rage calculations). Non-lethal damage is not hit point damage.

A person could take 5 billion points of non-lethal damage and he will never die from it.

That is why it is called non-lethal.

:dragon:
****

I fully understand. However I was responding to how things would work with Diehard coming into effect. If Tichrimo's goal of giving Diehard to barbarians so that they would not die if the became unconscious due to negative hit points while raged, then it wouldn't work. That is all I was commenting on. Anything else is an extrapolation that was unnecessary and wrong for the situation.

MarkB is completely right. This was all I was commenting on.
PenderGrass
05-26-07, 06:10 PM MarkB is completely right. This was all I was commenting on.
Well, so long as you aren't killing people with non-lethal damage, per se.

I guess at this point you could say that a character that is standing on a narrow ledge above lava that took enough non-lethal damage to be knocked out and fall into the lava would be "killed" by non-lethal as well.

:D

:dragon:
****

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tichrimo 05-24-07, 08:01 PM	The problem: According to our interpretation of the barbarian rage class feature (and a dash of common sense), you cannot be angry while unconscious; rage ends if you're knocked below 0 hp. According to the FAQ, this is not the case. Further musings: If you consider a barbarian's rage an "adrenaline rush", it almost works. It doesn't require concentration to start raging; it doesn't require concentration to maintain raging; you can't concentrate while raging... These all play into the "adrenaline" analogy nicely. But how can you "voluntarily" end said adrenaline rush, then? You can somehow suppress your bloodlust and stop raging at the drop of a hat? That's my stumbling block. If it were fixed duration (your rage lasts x rounds, period) then I'd be fine with it persisting into unconsciousness -- the adrenaline analogy fits perfectly. However, as soon as that first tinge of grey appears, (i.e. voluntarily ending a rage), I see a slippery slope of other possibilities/theories. Some options: Rage is a variable-period, semi-conscious effort that can be ended voluntarily; rage ends when unconscious. (i.e. Our interpretation to date.) As a possible extension, grant Diehard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#diehard) as a bonus feat to barbarians at 5th level? Rage is a fixed-period unconscious effort that cannot be ended voluntarily; rage persists when unconscious. Allow a concentration check to end a rage early? DC[15+number of rounds of rage remaining] or something like that... Or, expend a standard action to suppress your rage for a round (like you can do with SR)? Rage is a variable-period, semi-conscious effort that can be ended voluntarily; rage (somehow) persists when unconscious. (i.e. Accept the FAQ's ruling.) Don't use barbarians. Ever. :) Your thoughts?
bobothechimp 05-24-07, 08:13 PM	My thoughts? You're thinking too hard and overcomplicating things.
Morwen 05-24-07, 08:14 PM	The problem with ruling that a rage ends when you drop to 0 or less hit points is that every Barbarian above level 5 or so will instantly die at that point (since they lose the Con-bonus, which is always at least 10-hit-points worth at those levels). That ruling would cause me to never play a Barbarian. Ever. Use the FAQ ruling, as it is the most correct one and doesn't insta-kill characters that drop to 0 ;)
allenchan 05-24-07, 08:17 PM	3. Definitely 3.
Tichrimo 05-24-07, 10:15 PM	My thoughts? You're thinking too hard and overcomplicating things. Should've prefaced my post -- my game (DM and players alike) is comprised of 50% min/maxing and 50% rules-lawyering... Thought exercises like this are half the fun for us. :) The problem with ruling that a rage ends when you drop to 0 or less hit points is that every Barbarian above level 5 or so will instantly die at that point (since they lose the Con-bonus, which is always at least 10-hit-points worth at those levels). That ruling would cause me to never play a Barbarian. Ever. Use the FAQ ruling, as it is the most correct one and doesn't insta-kill characters that drop to 0 This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill.
Bob Loblaw 05-24-07, 11:28 PM	This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill. This won't actually solve your problem. What happens when someone decides to use nonlethal damage on your barbarian? He'll die since he'll go unconscious. If all barbarians got this ability, it would probably be well known just like their rage. There would be no reason not to knock 'em out. It would be funny to watch a bunch of barbarians running from merciless weapons.
Tichrimo 05-24-07, 11:39 PM	True, true... Or heck, the sleep/deeper slumber spells suddenly become deadly.
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 04:24 AM	This won't actually solve your problem. What happens when someone decides to use nonlethal damage on your barbarian? He'll die since he'll go unconscious. If all barbarians got this ability, it would probably be well known just like their rage. There would be no reason not to knock 'em out. It would be funny to watch a bunch of barbarians running from merciless weapons. I don't think you have non-lethal damage properly defined here. In other words, a barbarian knocked-out by only non-lethal damage is not going to be in danger of dying. :dragon: ****
Bob Loblaw 05-25-07, 08:21 AM	I don't think you have non-lethal damage properly defined here. In other words, a barbarian knocked-out by only non-lethal damage is not going to be in danger of dying. :dragon: **** If he's at negative hit points and comes out of his rage he would die.
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 01:16 PM	If he's at negative hit points and comes out of his rage he would die. For the sake of your players, I highly suggest you read how non-lethal damage works. It is in the PHB. But here are a couple clues: 1. Non-lethal 2. "Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not 'real' damage." - from the SRD/PHB :dragon: ****
olshanski_home 05-25-07, 02:46 PM	3. Accept the FAQ. If you really want to ask how a barbarian can rage while unconscious, you might also ask how a gargantuan creature can support its own weight, how plants can walk around, how dragons can breathe fire, or how a person can turn bat-turds into fireballs.
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 02:54 PM	...or how a person can turn bat-turds into fireballs. "Shikaka... Shikaka! Shikasha! Ohhh! Shishkabab. Shawshank Redemption. ShicaaaaGO! You're outta there! Go on, I gotcha, you're out." :dragon: ****
Bob Loblaw 05-25-07, 11:34 PM	For the sake of your players, I highly suggest you read how non-lethal damage works. It is in the PHB. But here are a couple clues: 1. Non-lethal 2. "Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not 'real' damage." - from the SRD/PHB :dragon: **** So when his nonlethal damage is greater than his current hit points, he wouldn't fall unconscious? If the barbarian is at -1 hit point (he has Diehard so he's still up and fighting) and he takes 9 nonlethal, what happens? If I'm reading the rules correctly, he falls unconscious.
runestar 05-25-07, 11:46 PM	This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill. Which really just solves the wrong problem.:P
Nathreet 05-26-07, 12:29 AM	I'd say it's a subconcious effect, like adrenaline, that gets turned on/off by concious thought. Not only does rage continue when a barbarian goes unconcious, the barbarian is unable to end it while unconcious. Done. Think of it as like salivating. You can trigger it with the right thoughts, but it's not a concious action. I have another example that's more clear, but less clean: erections.
MarkB 05-26-07, 06:08 AM	This is why I proposed the "Diehard for free at level 5" part... Avoids the insta-kill. Diehard won't prevent you dying from lack of hitpoints when your CON score drops as rage ends. The feats even points out specifically that you still die at -10 hitpoints. Furthermore, a barbarian who's raging and has diehard is unlikely to voluntarily fall unconscious once he's in negative hitpoints. That means he's still up and fighting, and a valid target, which means he'll most likely get hit again, and that hit will kill him stone dead. If you really want a viable alternative to rage continuing whilst unconscious, grant barbarians an ability similar to the Healing Factor shifter feat from Eberron, allowing their strong metabolism to heal them a number of hitpoints equal to twice their level when their rage ends.
PenderGrass 05-26-07, 04:58 PM	So when his nonlethal damage is greater than his current hit points, he wouldn't fall unconscious? If the barbarian is at -1 hit point (he has Diehard so he's still up and fighting) and he takes 9 nonlethal, what happens? If I'm reading the rules correctly, he falls unconscious. Let me put it this way. A barbarian is raging. He has gained 10 hit points from his rage. His total hit points are now 40. He takes a massive non-lethal beating for 40 points. This equals his current hit point total. His non-lethal total is zero. He falls to the ground unconscious. Eventually, his rage ends - he loses the 10 hit points he had from raging. His new hit point total is 30 (down from the previous 40 total). His non-lethal total is now negative 10. Notice that the barbarian's hit points haven't been touched (except by adjusting for the rage and non-rage calculations). Non-lethal damage is not hit point damage. A person could take 5 billion points of non-lethal damage and he will never die from it. That is why it is called non-lethal. :dragon: ****
MarkB 05-26-07, 05:08 PM	Let me put it this way. A barbarian is raging. He has gained 10 hit points from his rage. His total hit points are now 40. He takes a massive non-lethal beating for 40 points. This equals his current hit point total. His non-lethal total is zero. He falls to the ground unconscious. Eventually, his rage ends - he loses the 10 hit points he had from raging. His new hit point total is 30 (down from the previous 40 total). His non-lethal total is now negative 10. Notice that the barbarian's hit points haven't been touched (except by adjusting for the rage and non-rage calculations). Non-lethal damage is not hit point damage. A person could take 5 billion points of non-lethal damage and he will never die from it. That is why it is called non-lethal. :dragon: **** I believe the situation Bob Loblaw was suggesting was the fairly unlikely one of the barbarian receiving enough lethal damage that he'd be dead if he wasn't raging, and unconscious if he didn't have Diehard, and then taking enough non-lethal damage to knock him out. In which case, if you rule that barbarians cease raging when unconscious, the barbarian would indeed die. Not exactly a commonplace combination of factors, though.
Bob Loblaw 05-26-07, 05:53 PM	Let me put it this way. A barbarian is raging. He has gained 10 hit points from his rage. His total hit points are now 40. He takes a massive non-lethal beating for 40 points. This equals his current hit point total. His non-lethal total is zero. He falls to the ground unconscious. Eventually, his rage ends - he loses the 10 hit points he had from raging. His new hit point total is 30 (down from the previous 40 total). His non-lethal total is now negative 10. Notice that the barbarian's hit points haven't been touched (except by adjusting for the rage and non-rage calculations). Non-lethal damage is not hit point damage. A person could take 5 billion points of non-lethal damage and he will never die from it. That is why it is called non-lethal. :dragon: **** I fully understand. However I was responding to how things would work with Diehard coming into effect. If Tichrimo's goal of giving Diehard to barbarians so that they would not die if the became unconscious due to negative hit points while raged, then it wouldn't work. That is all I was commenting on. Anything else is an extrapolation that was unnecessary and wrong for the situation. MarkB is completely right. This was all I was commenting on.
PenderGrass 05-26-07, 06:10 PM	MarkB is completely right. This was all I was commenting on. Well, so long as you aren't killing people with non-lethal damage, per se. I guess at this point you could say that a character that is standing on a narrow ledge above lava that took enough non-lethal damage to be knocked out and fall into the lava would be "killed" by non-lethal as well. :D :dragon: ****