Post/Author/DateTime	Post
goldjas 07-03-07, 09:29 PM	I was thinking of having the PCs of my current game face off against 4 bard NPCs at once (not necessarily in a battle, but it could come to that), the reason being that well, for one, it fits the story, and for another, I heard that each bard can be completely different from one another. Heres my problem...I have no idea how to build anything other then a vanilla bard. What are some feats and such that each individual bard could take that would make them stand out from eachother? (I plan on having the bards to be around level 10-12 or so).
Anathema 07-03-07, 09:36 PM	Off the top of my head: Battle-Bard. Maybe a dwarf so he can wield (or TWF) dwarven waraxes. Support-Bard. He uses a whip for ranged disarm and trip attacks while singing. Caster-Bard. A few meta-magic feats and a high UMD. Rogue-Bard. Pumping most of his skill points in to sneaking, open lock, and disable. The thing is that no matter what you do there's going to be some significant overlap. All bards can cast, for example. The thing I would advise is to create one character with a specialty and build the next one to fill in the gaps. When there are no gaps left to fill, overlap in the most useful areas, like healing. There are also bard variants in Unearthed Arcana, the PHB 2, Races of Stone, and Races of Destiny. The last two are a gnome bard specialty and half-elf bard specialty, respectively. Good luck!
Kaurus 07-03-07, 09:42 PM	Charming Bard, Melee Bard, Ranged Bard and Unarmed Bard ? There are some PrC for Bards. But even more interesting: You could also use different races or cultures to develop different bards and do not forget, that there are several very different ways to tell stories, different instruments / singers. What about a mime, a (war) drummer, some violin virtuoso and a professional singer or even a poet or just actor ?
Kaurus 07-03-07, 09:46 PM	. . . All bards can cast, for example. Good luck! But even the selection of spells makes a very big difference ! Yes, good luck and I would be interested in your different bard designs, so maybe drop me a few lines :)
Anathema 07-03-07, 09:48 PM	Or they could all be the most evil thing in the universe .. :evillaugh INTERPRETIVE DANCERS!! :evillaugh
Kaurus 07-03-07, 09:57 PM	Or they could all be the most evil thing in the universe .. :evillaugh INTERPRETIVE DANCERS!! :evillaugh "Please dance the colour blue" :D "Dance little bastard" *throwing Shuriken at the bards feet* :surrender
runestar 07-03-07, 11:00 PM	Maybe crank up their perform checks as high as you can and try to turn the PCs into your fanatic followers? You will need a +150 perform check though.:P
theplaidknight 07-04-07, 01:22 AM	Best thread I've seen in a while. How about that dude from the recent The Punisher movie? He was pretty kickass. Also instead of just a shotgun to fall back on, he'd have three buddies.
Nom 07-04-07, 08:28 PM	The secondary "problem" with multiple bards is that their songs won't stack, though you can get them off a long faster: one inspires courage, while others inspire greatness or cast spells. The main problem with multiple bards is that they are great at buffing. Unfortunately, they are only moderately useful in defense and relatively poor in attack. Offensively, their best option is to completely shut down the opponents without ever entering combat, through the use of mind control magic and defensive illusions.
Marcus Majarra 07-04-07, 09:05 PM	I see a team of bards as workable. There are already a few tricks out there that allow your inspire courage to be as high as +3 at low levels, plus they get easy access to tasha's hideous laughter. They can also use a whip (tactical trip + 2-handed disarm at 15-feet). While a single bard is not a very dangerous challenge, a team of bards can be something to be reckoned with.
Kaurus 07-05-07, 07:48 AM	Maybe crank up their perform checks as high as you can and try to turn the PCs into your fanatic followers? You will need a +150 perform check though.:P Don´t forget the "aid another rule" (DC 10 to give an ally +2 to their check) if you want them to perform as a band instead of competing against each other in a contest ! The secondary "problem" with multiple bards is that their songs won't stack, though you can get them off a long faster: one inspires courage, while others inspire greatness or cast spells. The main problem with multiple bards is that they are great at buffing. Unfortunately, they are only moderately useful in defense and relatively poor in attack. Offensively, their best option is to completely shut down the opponents without ever entering combat, through the use of mind control magic and defensive illusions. Poor at attack / defense / killing people ? At Level 10 ??? If they want to "attack" they should use fascinate on their target, then suggest people to split up or get some drinks or buy thier new albums. They can use the advantage that fascinate gives them to buff themself (while getting some other instrument where nobody can see that they are casting). If they are attacked they can use spells to fascinate their attackers and leave or take cover while prepairing for the fight before the spells effect wears off (or they cast haste or expedious retreat to get some distance). Well lets say these bard all have a Charisma of 18 (natural or enhanced by equipment): At character lvl 10 that´s 4 1st + 4 2nd + 3 3rd lvl spells (4 known) 1 4th lvl spells (2 known). Level 1 spells: Expeditious Retreat, speed increases by 30 ft. Hideous Laughter, fall prone while laughing, unable to take action for 1 round/ level (Will neg) Level 2 spells: Blur (20 miss chance, one creature) 1 min./level (D) Cats Grace (+2 to ranged / weapon finesse attacks, Reflex saves, AC [depending on Max Dex to AC]) Darkness (20 miss chance in 20 ft radius) Glitterdust (Brd 2) blinds target (Will neg) 1 round/level Heroism (+2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, 10 min / lvl) doesn´t stack with Inspire courage, but lasts longer (alltough only creature) Level 3 spells: Haste (+1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves, 1 extra attack during full attack, all modes of movement increased up to 30 ft. [good for getting in position for the CDG explained later]) 1 round/level, 1 creature/level, no 2 more than 30 ft. apart Displacement (50 % miss chance) 1 round/level (D) And the worst thing: Hold Person lvl 2, 1 round/level (D); Will negates (1 chance each round). or Deep Slumber lvl 3 (10 HD, Will neg, 1 min / lvl) but target will wake up if slapped or wounded (but I would think Use rope has a chance not to wake him) HELPLESS DEFENDERS A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him). Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). (because CDG is a fullround-action) you need 2 rounds, one to reach the held person and one to CDG, but good teamwork cancels this (imagine being held at initiative count 12 and CDGed at 11 . . . not funny) If you don´t have the time (or are close enough to reach your helpless victim with one move) let the meele bard just powerattack with his 2 handed Harp of fire, using the - 9 AC (-4 helpless, - 5 Dex to AC) to deal 18 points of extra damage. If the bards enemies are in a very tight formation in order to prevent them from being held and attacked without AoO from resisting allies -> Shout (lvl 4) ; ) 30 ft cone 5D6 dam (Fort half) 2D6 rounds deafness (Fort neg) and energy resistance won´t help. Deafened: A deafened character cannot hear. She takes a –4 penalty on initiative checks, automatically fails Listen checks, and has a 20% chance of spell failure when casting spells with verbal components. Characters who remain deafened for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. Altough the deafness could also help against some of the charms (but you could still make gesture commands to dominated persons), this spell is quite usefull. And finally: Dominate Person is a lvl 4 spell for Bards !!! Casting Time: 1 round, Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid, Duration: One day/level, Saving Throw: Will negates, Spell Resistance: Yes The problem with most of the nasty spell is that Will negates quite often, but shout should make spellcasters quite ineffective. I would think, all this possibilities taken together should teach anybody who picked a fight with a band of bards a lesson. (Not to mention that everybody likes bards and they will probably get help form the locals)
Kaurus 07-05-07, 09:06 AM	P.s.: If that is not enough offensive power for your taste: Use Magic Divices of Massive Destruction :evillaugh Use wand DC 20. or Use scroll DC 20 + caster level Decipher a written spell 25 + spell level (not important if you know what spell is written ?) maybe caster level check DC CL of the scrolls spell + 1 (if spell is higher than you could cast) Emulate an Ability Score Check result - 15 is the Score your able to emulate (if yours is not high enough) If the band does not want to buy other spells from wizards / clerics / sorcerers the caster bard could take the write scroll / craft wand feat and provide the others with important scrolls (or equip the rouge roadie who is taking care of the special effects section with Glitterdust / Rainbow Pattern / Shadow Conjuration [when he is not training his sneak attacks to kill those enemies affected by hold person ;)])
Kaurus 07-05-07, 09:53 AM	Maybe this is interesting for you too: MarkB in Charm questions: It's worth noting that Charm Person is a close-range spell with both verbal and somatic components, so unless the caster somehow manages to remain concealed from the target, it's a fairly simple matter for the target to notice that the caster was spellcasting just before his sudden attitude adjustment. There are ways around this - you could make the spell Still and Silent, and I seem to recall there's a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel that lets you use Bluff and/or Sleight of Hand to disguise your spellcasting as innocuous words and gestures.
Nom 07-05-07, 07:01 PM	Poor at attack / defense / killing people ? At Level 10 ???Yes. Pure bards (LA +0, single classed) have crummy attack bonuses, deal crummy damage, and have very little in the way of direct injury spells. Which you proved: you listed a whole lot of buffing / debuffing / defensive spells. The single spell listed dealing direct damage is sound burst, which does the princely value of 1d8 sonic. Instead, you provided a bunch of examples using defensive and mental spells to disrupt or suppress opponents. Which is exactly what I said:Offensively, their best option is to completely shut down the opponents without ever entering combat, through the use of mind control magic and defensive illusions. A bard who resorts to using a bow or sword is either completely on top of the situation or has run out of good options. The true weapons of a skilled bard are his allies and even his opponents.
Kaurus 07-06-07, 10:11 AM	I would say that making someone helpless in the midst of combat and giving him a Coup de Grace (with DC 10 + 1d6 x3 [shortbow] or DC 10 + 1d8 x2 Fort save or die) is good enough (and should be counted as offensive). Shout: ok I have to admitt that I was wrong, Protection from Energy does have Sonic as an option, so my "there´s no protection against shout" argument is invalid . . . Offensive magic ? Wand or scroll as I wrote, that is one of their main "class abilities" (well it´s a skill, but they should be better at Use Magic Device than thieves, because of their very good charisma). But sure your right, he is even better at being liked all over the place and maybe being the local lords favourite musican and thus being protected by him, but the question was 1 on 1, PCs against NPC Bards, maybe in a battle.
the_real_orcus 07-06-07, 04:22 PM	Let's not forget one of the DM's best friends: templates! A half-dragon or half-fiend bard would be quite formidable. The Bonesinger template from the Ghostwalk setting also creates a bardic foe your PCs aren't likely to simply plow through. There's also a plethora of Prestige Classes and multiclassing options available to truly customize your bards. A bard/fighter or bard/rogue would be perfect for throwing at players heading into what they think is going to be an altercation with a group of "vanilla bards," and the thought of a bardic assassin or blackguard is downright scary.
Mystic Lemur 07-07-07, 12:28 PM	I totally agree. It is much easier to slap a template on an NPC caster. Who cares what the ECL is when the CR is only 1-2 higher. Make them a vampire. OR OR... A Lich! A Bard Lich! "This is the song that never ends! Yes, it goes on and on my friends! You thought you killed me, but you didn't get my phylactery. So I'll continue singing it forever, just because..."
mlund 07-09-07, 08:18 PM	Bards can do quite well for themselves. They have access to a great selection of spells that work wonders in combat. They have a lot of battlefield control spells, and they can also enhance their offensive potential. Denial: Silence, Dispel Magic, Slow, Countersong Control: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Fascinate, Suggestion Healing: Cure Light, Cure Moderate, Cure Serious, and Cure Critical Wounds Offense: Shout, Whirling Blade, Sonic Weapon, Inspire Courage (w/ Inspiration Boost), Haste, Arcane Strike That's just pulling highlights. They've got proficiency with Composite Shortbows, Longswords, and Whips as well - giving them a worthy selection of weapons for almost any combat tactic. They cast freely in light armor too. They have some very impressive Prestige Class options at higher levels as well, allowing them to specialize a bit more. One of their biggest vulnerabilities is Silence, since they have no real way to cast spells or use Bardic Music under such a condition. - Marty Lund
Anathema 07-10-07, 02:59 PM	A Lich! A Bard Lich! "This is the song that never ends! Yes, it goes on and on my friends! You thought you killed me, but you didn't get my phylactery. So I'll continue singing it forever, just because..." :surrender :hides: :surrender