Binders [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Binders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cranewings
03-25-08, 11:48 AM Do binders get to pick what vestiges they have like wizards, or can they use all avalable like a cleric?
Count Arioch the 28th
03-25-08, 11:54 AM My opinion is that they pretty much have access to all of them, they just need to do the proper rituals and checks to bind the vestiges.
GuyrtheadamantineOne
03-25-08, 11:55 AM Like a cleric, but you could have some roleplaying behind vestige knowledge, such as having to make various Knowledge (Arcana) checks to discover new ones as the binder grow in power.
Cranewings
03-25-08, 12:08 PM Power gaming hooooooooo!
Nephlite
03-25-08, 12:11 PM Power gaming hooooooooo!

I wish. Binders are balanced.
Lady_of_the_Winds
03-25-08, 12:11 PM Binders do not gain access to vestiges with level, they gain the ability to summon more powerful vestiges . Which vestiges they can summon depends on which ones they know about. If the binder knows the symbol and rituel for a vestiges , than (s)he can summon them. Provided (s)he is of appropriate level.
Cranewings
03-25-08, 12:21 PM How are they balanced? At third level they get a vestige that grants sneak attack and invisibility at will. That makes them completely better than a rogue, especially sense they get bluff as a class skill.

Binders might be balance if that was all they could do, but it isn't, they can do other core powers. They just aren't weighed down with side abilities like finding traps like the rogue is.
heffroncm
03-25-08, 04:24 PM How are they balanced? At third level they get a vestige that grants sneak attack and invisibility at will. That makes them completely better than a rogue, especially sense they get bluff as a class skill.

Binders might be balance if that was all they could do, but it isn't, they can do other core powers. They just aren't weighed down with side abilities like finding traps like the rogue is.

Not quite. At third level they get access to a vestige that grants Invisibility as a full round action which breaks on the first attack AND has a 5 round gap between use, and Sudden Strike, which cannot be used while Flanking. If said 3rd level Binder uses this Vestige, the only other thing they can do FOR 24 HOURS is use poisons and summon a Raven to scout with. It does not grant them any utility in Hide or Move Silently.

To use this ability, the Binder has a very real risk attached. Being level 3 with a likely best of 16 Charisma, he needs an 11 or better to not be Influenced. The influence for Malphas, the vestige in question, causes a character to be madly smitten with love at the least kindness from the opposite sex. This also lasts the full 24 hours that the character is bound with Malphas. This means the BBEG sorceress that uses her Charisma to try and seduce the Binder automatically succedes, and the he would literally die for her if she asked nicely. Additionally, he is forced to use poison at every opportunity. For 24 hours.

So yeah, they get at 3rd a 1d6 Sudden Strike that they have to use 2 rounds to apply, once a combat. Totally unbalanced.

To answer your original question, knowledge of various vestiges is generally considered a gimme with the class. You could certainly assing a Knowledge: The Planes (the appropriate skill for Vestiges) check to determine wether a Binder knows the proper seal and special recquirements. I would recomend the DC be set to the Binding DC of each vestige, and that the Binder be allowed to recheck whenever they come accross a new bit of planar lore (new library, leveling up, etc.).
TazendrasGhost
03-25-08, 04:30 PM Binders can do some anice things, but not all at once. They are a great support class, but they certainly aren't anywhere near the top of the power curve.
Count Arioch the 28th
03-25-08, 11:22 PM Odd, I've found binders to be almost worthless.
heffroncm
03-25-08, 11:25 PM Odd, I've found binders to be almost worthless.

Binder is an excellent class, but it takes a lot of work to make it shine, and even then it can never compete with a pure caster from the PHB. Sadly, one of the best things you can do with a Binder is mix it with a pure caster with Anima Mage or Tenebrous Apostate.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cranewings 03-25-08, 11:48 AM	Do binders get to pick what vestiges they have like wizards, or can they use all avalable like a cleric?
Count Arioch the 28th 03-25-08, 11:54 AM	My opinion is that they pretty much have access to all of them, they just need to do the proper rituals and checks to bind the vestiges.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 03-25-08, 11:55 AM	Like a cleric, but you could have some roleplaying behind vestige knowledge, such as having to make various Knowledge (Arcana) checks to discover new ones as the binder grow in power.
Cranewings 03-25-08, 12:08 PM	Power gaming hooooooooo!
Nephlite 03-25-08, 12:11 PM	Power gaming hooooooooo! I wish. Binders are balanced.
Lady_of_the_Winds 03-25-08, 12:11 PM	Binders do not gain access to vestiges with level, they gain the ability to summon more powerful vestiges . Which vestiges they can summon depends on which ones they know about. If the binder knows the symbol and rituel for a vestiges , than (s)he can summon them. Provided (s)he is of appropriate level.
Cranewings 03-25-08, 12:21 PM	How are they balanced? At third level they get a vestige that grants sneak attack and invisibility at will. That makes them completely better than a rogue, especially sense they get bluff as a class skill. Binders might be balance if that was all they could do, but it isn't, they can do other core powers. They just aren't weighed down with side abilities like finding traps like the rogue is.
heffroncm 03-25-08, 04:24 PM	How are they balanced? At third level they get a vestige that grants sneak attack and invisibility at will. That makes them completely better than a rogue, especially sense they get bluff as a class skill. Binders might be balance if that was all they could do, but it isn't, they can do other core powers. They just aren't weighed down with side abilities like finding traps like the rogue is. Not quite. At third level they get access to a vestige that grants Invisibility as a full round action which breaks on the first attack AND has a 5 round gap between use, and Sudden Strike, which cannot be used while Flanking. If said 3rd level Binder uses this Vestige, the only other thing they can do FOR 24 HOURS is use poisons and summon a Raven to scout with. It does not grant them any utility in Hide or Move Silently. To use this ability, the Binder has a very real risk attached. Being level 3 with a likely best of 16 Charisma, he needs an 11 or better to not be Influenced. The influence for Malphas, the vestige in question, causes a character to be madly smitten with love at the least kindness from the opposite sex. This also lasts the full 24 hours that the character is bound with Malphas. This means the BBEG sorceress that uses her Charisma to try and seduce the Binder automatically succedes, and the he would literally die for her if she asked nicely. Additionally, he is forced to use poison at every opportunity. For 24 hours. So yeah, they get at 3rd a 1d6 Sudden Strike that they have to use 2 rounds to apply, once a combat. Totally unbalanced. To answer your original question, knowledge of various vestiges is generally considered a gimme with the class. You could certainly assing a Knowledge: The Planes (the appropriate skill for Vestiges) check to determine wether a Binder knows the proper seal and special recquirements. I would recomend the DC be set to the Binding DC of each vestige, and that the Binder be allowed to recheck whenever they come accross a new bit of planar lore (new library, leveling up, etc.).
TazendrasGhost 03-25-08, 04:30 PM	Binders can do some anice things, but not all at once. They are a great support class, but they certainly aren't anywhere near the top of the power curve.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-25-08, 11:22 PM	Odd, I've found binders to be almost worthless.
heffroncm 03-25-08, 11:25 PM	Odd, I've found binders to be almost worthless. Binder is an excellent class, but it takes a lot of work to make it shine, and even then it can never compete with a pure caster from the PHB. Sadly, one of the best things you can do with a Binder is mix it with a pure caster with Anima Mage or Tenebrous Apostate.