Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morgul 02-28-07, 11:56 PM	Hi! I'm one of those "long time lurker, first time poster" type. I recently took over the job of DM in one of our ongoing campaign, and since it's my first time behind the screen, I obviously have a lot of questions. Don't worry, this post is only about one of those! ;) My question is : Is it possible to benefit from a buckler's AC bonus while shooting arrows with a bow? The description of the buckler in the PHB indicates that it doesn't cause any penalty while using bows, but that might only refer to the usual -1 to attack. It is also clearly stated that AC bonus from a buckler cannot be claimed while using off-hand weapons or two-handed weapons, neither of which the bow is. Finally, the FAQ states that a spellcaster benefits from a buckler's AC bonus while using the buckler's arm for casting spells with somatic or material components. So what would be your ruling on this matter? Thanks, Morgul
Lord Nedd 02-28-07, 11:58 PM	Hi! I'm one of those "long time lurker, first time poster" type. I recently took over the job of DM in one of our ongoing campaign, and since it's my first time behind the screen, I obviously have a lot of questions. Don't worry, this post is only about one of those! ;) My question is : Is it possible to benefit from a buckler's AC bonus while shooting arrows with a bow? The description of the buckler in the PHB indicates that it doesn't cause any penalty while using bows, but that might only refer to the usual -1 to attack. It is also clearly stated that AC bonus from a buckler cannot be claimed while using off-hand weapons or two-handed weapons, neither of which the bow is. Finally, the FAQ states that a spellcaster benefits from a buckler's AC bonus while using the buckler's arm for casting spells with somatic or material components. So what would be your ruling on this matter? Thanks, Morgul Sorry, mate, but a bow is a two handed weapon. One to hold the bow, the other to draw and fire the arrow. -LN
Morgul 03-01-07, 12:24 AM	Sorry, mate, but a bow is a two handed weapon. One to hold the bow, the other to draw and fire the arrow. -LN Well, technically the bow is classified as a ranged weapon, not a two-handed weapon, even if both hands are needed to use it. One hand (the one holding the bow) doesn't move so much as the other (the one holding the string and reaching for the arrows), so the former could serve as the buckler arm. IMHO. Morgul
Lord Nedd 03-01-07, 01:22 AM	Well, technically the bow is classified as a ranged weapon, not a two-handed weapon, even if both hands are needed to use it. One hand (the one holding the bow) doesn't move so much as the other (the one holding the string and reaching for the arrows), so the former could serve as the buckler arm. IMHO. Morgul It is a ranged two handed weapon then. You need both arms to aim and fire the weapon. Your bow holding arm is used to aim, the other to draw the bow. For a buckler to effectively work, you need to offer it at either an angle or perpendicular to the attacking angle. If you are moving your holding arm around in a defensive manner you can't accurately aim an arrow in the 6 seconds we use as a round. IMHO. I don't have the energy to search the FAQs or the books at this time. Perhaps I will get be able to do it tomorrow. Take care and G'Night. -LN
The_Ditto 03-01-07, 08:04 AM	No AC if you're using a weapon in the hand with the buckler: [quote=SRD] Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. The text makes the assumption that the buckler is on your "off-hand" ... but if that were true, you technically hold a bow in your "off-hand" and draw the arrow with your "primary" .. so the "default" usage still applies. I would assume if you're trying to get the buckler AC bonus, you'd actually be smart enough to strap the Buckler to the arm that is drawing the arrow ... Even then ... you are still using that arm to "wield a weapon" ... so no, no AC bonus ... the only thing a buckler is allowing is allowing you to carry the buckler with minimal penalties so you can opt to switch between using a shield or not easily - without the need to draw it, etc.
Morgul 03-01-07, 08:15 AM	It is a ranged two handed weapon then. You need both arms to aim and fire the weapon. Your bow holding arm is used to aim, the other to draw the bow. For a buckler to effectively work, you need to offer it at either an angle or perpendicular to the attacking angle. If you are moving your holding arm around in a defensive manner you can't accurately aim an arrow in the 6 seconds we use as a round. IMHO. I don't have the energy to search the FAQs or the books at this time. Perhaps I will get be able to do it tomorrow. Take care and G'Night. -LN I understand your reasoning and would agree with you fully if not for this (from the FAQ, emphasis mine) : "A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon. Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand." Now the way I see it, casting a spell with somatic component requires elaborate gestuals which should prevent the caster from holding his arm in a defensive matter, and vice versa. I couldn't find any such ruling for bows in the FAQ or Errata, but if you retain AC bonus from buckler while casting, I would have no problem allowing it with a bow. I just want other's opinion on the matter. Morgul
Epicweaver 03-01-07, 10:42 AM	My group has always allowed a buckler wielder to keep the AC on a bow shot as well as keep it while swinging with a two-handed weapon (albeit at a -1 penalty to attack). The only circumstance that they didn't get to use it was when two-weapon fighting. As I re-read your thoughts and quotes, perhaps we have been handling it wrong.. I don't know, doesn't seem like it's really imbalanced the process too much.
The_Ditto 03-01-07, 01:36 PM	Now the way I see it, casting a spell with somatic component requires elaborate gestuals which should prevent the caster from holding his arm in a defensive matter, and vice versa. I couldn't find any such ruling for bows in the FAQ or Errata, but if you retain AC bonus from buckler while casting, I would have no problem allowing it with a bow. I just want other's opinion on the matter. Morgul Neither would I ... the buckler is "easier" to handle ... so it should be able to be brought to bear easier. Think of the rulings on 2-handed weapons and casting. The character has enough time to: a) drop the sword with 1 hand .. (free action) b) cast a spell (standard action) c) re-grip the sword with the free hand (free action) d) sword is available for AoOs ... I see the similar logic applying to bucklers ... in most situations ... - such as spell casting .. (ie frees the hand for casting ... then the AC bonus is back on) - archery - use the bow/crossbow ... then the AC bonus is back on ... - but not for 2-h weapons ... unless you "let go" of the sword with 1 hand. In that case, you'd get either the weapon ready for an AoO OR the buckler's AC ... but not both ... I'm just not sure how much the actual rules support all that ... :tiphat:
Warric 03-01-07, 04:11 PM	I thought I saw somewhere in one of the supplements a feat that would allow you to retain your bonus to AC with a buckler while also fighting. Not sure though. We've always played that if you wear a buckler, you do not get the AC bonus it provides while you are attacking. The rules seem to support this regardless of the type of weapon used. Just my 2 cents
StevenO 03-01-07, 07:23 PM	I believe the RAW is that you would lose the AC bonus although for a bow or crossbow I'd allow the character to retain that AC. With either weapon you'd generally have the buckler arm out in front were it could be used to deflect incoming attacks.
primemover003 03-01-07, 09:02 PM	Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm sure the intent is to allow no penalty to either AC or attack when using the buckler with a Bow or Crossbow. It's only when you're using melee weapons or throwing a weapon with the off hand (which would be rare overall) that you take the -1 to attack and lose the Shield Bonus afterwards. Just because you're using the off hand to hold a bow or crossbow doesn't mean you're attack with the off hand or using a two handed weapon. Longbows and crossbows are Martial and Simple Ranged weapons respectively. Light, One-Handed, Two-Handed, and Ranged are all game terms, not merely description.
Marcus Majarra 03-02-07, 02:38 PM	Per RAW, bows require two hands to use. This means that attacking with a bow while you have a buckler ready will involve a -1 penalty to attack and the sacrifice of the buckler's bonus to AC for one round. Improved Buckler Defense (Complete Warrior) will help avoid the 2nd drawback.
Morgul 03-02-07, 02:43 PM	Thank you all for your answers, that really helps! The way I understand it, there is no general consensus as to what the rules really mean on the buckler-and-bow combo. Which, as usual, leaves only one option : house ruling! For my part, unless another argument comes up and makes me change my mind, I will go with the "no penalty and no loss of AC" house rule. The archer in my group will be pleased! :) Morgul
Morgul 03-02-07, 02:52 PM	Per RAW, bows require two hands to use. This means that attacking with a bow while you have a buckler ready will involve a -1 penalty to attack and the sacrifice of the buckler's bonus to AC for one round. Improved Buckler Defense (Complete Warrior) will help avoid the 2nd drawback. Oops! I was writing my (supposedly) final answer when MM posted this! First of all, the description of the buckler specifically states that the -1 to attack penalty with buckler does not apply to bows. This discussion was about applying or not the "no AC bonus from buckler while using an off-hand weapon" to bows. While as someone mentionned earlier, bows are not really off-hand weapons, MM brings a good idea for 2-weapon fighters : Improved buckler defense. Morgul
Zherog 03-02-07, 02:56 PM	I rule exactly as Primemover.
crowclub 03-05-07, 01:50 PM	Thank you all for your answers, that really helps! The way I understand it, there is no general consensus as to what the rules really mean on the buckler-and-bow combo. Which, as usual, leaves only one option : house ruling! For my part, unless another argument comes up and makes me change my mind, I will go with the "no penalty and no loss of AC" house rule. The archer in my group will be pleased! :) Morgul NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I disagree! If you want to use a weapon that has the amazing ability of being able to kill things at great distances, ie, NOT in melee combat then you absolutely do have to lose any possible shield bonus to AC. Furthermore, I would not allow (and I know I'll take flak for this) the stupid Close Combat Shot ability granted by the Prestige Class, Order of the Bow Initiate. Seems to me that Archer PC's conveniently forget the amazing ability a ranged weapon has over a dude with a sword, and then they want all the melee combatants perks on top. I say NO While your arm (the straight one holding the bow) is straight and pointing towards a target, just how are you going to use that arm with a buckler strapped to it to deflect an incoming blow and still keep it straight to fire the bow???
primemover003 03-05-07, 03:55 PM	NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! While your arm (the straight one holding the bow) is straight and pointing towards a target, just how are you going to use that arm with a buckler strapped to it to deflect an incoming blow and still keep it straight to fire the bow??? Um... by the time they're swinging at you, you've already shot them or have yet to act (meaning draw, aim, and shoot) and thus can duck and weave and interpose your buckler quite easily. It's the joy of the turn based system.
Warric 03-05-07, 05:20 PM	I see it more as simple game mechanics. I think the fact that if you fire a ranged weapon you don't incure a -1 penalty to hit, makes the buckler more appealing to a ranged combatant. That is a good bonus by itself. Giving a ranged combatant the additional benefit of the AC benefit of the shield while attacking with a crossbow or bow seems just too good when comparing it to other combat builds like the 2-handed fighter and the 2-weapon fighter. It also diminishes the effectiveness of the weapon and shield fighter as now the archer can have a near identical AC in comparison and have range. We also have a PC in my group that is a ranger that fights with a longbow and buckler strapped to his arm. After having this same debate and consulting the rules we came to a concensus that when firing his bow he does not recieve the AC bonus of his +2 buckler. I have found this system to be the best at resolving rules issues. Of course it's also really nice to see what everyone else out there thinks... hence posting questions on these boards:D
The_Ditto 03-06-07, 08:41 AM	You probably do not want to strap the buckler to the arm that is holding the bow .. reason is, the buckler will tend to rotate a bit around the forearm (and/or the arm itself will cause the rotation - even if strapped tight)... and if it does, it will interfere with the bow string. You would want to strap the buckler to the arm that's actually drawing the bow ... (ie the one "behind you" when you draw ..) ... that also means it's difficult to utilize it at the same time you are firing ... It makes it difficult, no matter how you look at it ... but I still don't see a big problem, however, I might rule that using a full attack action means no buckler bonus to AC, however, a single attack would allow the buckler bonus to AC for the remainder of the round .. *shrug*
Morgul 03-06-07, 09:25 AM	If you want to use a weapon that has the amazing ability of being able to kill things at great distances, ie, NOT in melee combat then you absolutely do have to lose any possible shield bonus to AC. While your arm (the straight one holding the bow) is straight and pointing towards a target, just how are you going to use that arm with a buckler strapped to it to deflect an incoming blow and still keep it straight to fire the bow??? Is'nt a wizard casting a Fireball someone with the amazing ability to kill things at great distances? How is the wizard capable of casting his fireball using somatic components while having a buckler strapped to his arm to deflect an incoming blow? And why is the wizard still protected by the buckler AC bonus while the archer isn't? Morgul
Warric 03-06-07, 12:21 PM	Is'nt a wizard casting a Fireball someone with the amazing ability to kill things at great distances? How is the wizard capable of casting his fireball using somatic components while having a buckler strapped to his arm to deflect an incoming blow? And why is the wizard still protected by the buckler AC bonus while the archer isn't? Morgul Keep in mind that nowhere does it say that casting a spell requires 2 hands. This is how a cleric for instance with a one handed weapon, and light shield can switch his weapon to his shield hand, cast a spell, and then switch back to his other hand... retaining his AC bonus. There are other rules which deal with how a shield affects a spell caster, i.e. spell failure chance.
Morgul 03-06-07, 12:40 PM	Keep in mind that nowhere does it say that casting a spell requires 2 hands. This is how a cleric for instance with a one handed weapon, and light shield can switch his weapon to his shield hand, cast a spell, and then switch back to his other hand... retaining his AC bonus. There are other rules which deal with how a shield affects a spell caster, i.e. spell failure chance. Like I quoted earlier, from the FAQ: "A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon. Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand." This specifically says that the caster uses his buckler hand for casting. There is no need to switch hands or anything : the same hand can cast and protect the caster at the same time. I agree with the ASF, but any masterwork buckler has none. Morgul
crowclub 03-06-07, 01:24 PM	Like I quoted earlier, from the FAQ: "A cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component (which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell, the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon. Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand." This specifically says that the caster uses his buckler hand for casting. There is no need to switch hands or anything : the same hand can cast and protect the caster at the same time. I agree with the ASF, but any masterwork buckler has none. Morgul ....Yes and therefore you only need ONE hand to cast,.... nothing like using a bow then?
Morgul 03-06-07, 03:50 PM	....Yes and therefore you only need ONE hand to cast,.... nothing like using a bow then? My point was that a caster could use his buckler arm to make the intricate motions of casting AND move the same arm simultaneously to block incoming attacks with his buckler. This could be interpreted as complete nonsense... but it is RAW. I just cannot see why an archer could not do the same with a bow. Morgul
Shatteredtower 03-06-07, 08:26 PM	I just cannot see why an archer could not do the same with a bow.Because the archer must have the bow in one hand while using the other to manipulate both the arrow and the bowstring? Granted, the spellcaster is drawing something from a spell component pouch, but that's the equivalent of drawing one or more arrows, in the sense that both are free actions. Keep in mind that the hand motions for spellcasting could be performed with your hands at your sides or with your arms held out straight in front of you, allowing for you to hustle that buckler around a lot. The archer's hands have to be held in a fairly specific position, meanwhile, to fire at a specific target.
primemover003 03-06-07, 08:37 PM	Again we're not talking realism... it's turn based combat! A Bow or Crossbow user can use the Buckler with no penalty to hit and no loss of AC. Buckler This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it.STOP. The next sentance refers to melee and thrown weapons, not a bow or crossbow. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.
Thamius 03-06-07, 09:00 PM	I have a related but not identical question: Does a magical buckler's special ability, such as Arrow Deflection or Reflecting, still apply even when the wearer doesn't gain the shield's AC bonus? Let's say that a DM rules that an archer does not gain a buckler's AC bonus when shooting his longbow. He's aware of a crossbowman attacking him and he's not flatfooted, and he's involved in a ranged duel with the crossbowman. Even if he doesn't get the AC bonus, could the Arrow Deflection kick in on a possible hit? The way I'm reading the RAW there's nothing to prevent it, in which case an archer character could get a +1 buckler and pile on all sorts of special abilities instead of additional magic bonuses. Save the magic bonuses for the armor, where it'll increase his AC regardless of the buckler/no buckler issue. What about an Animated buckler?
Morgul 03-06-07, 11:56 PM	Because the archer must have the bow in one hand while using the other to manipulate both the arrow and the bowstring? Granted, the spellcaster is drawing something from a spell component pouch, but that's the equivalent of drawing one or more arrows, in the sense that both are free actions. Your exemple refers to Material components, not Somatic components. Keep in mind that the hand motions for spellcasting could be performed with your hands at your sides or with your arms held out straight in front of you, allowing for you to hustle that buckler around a lot. The archer's hands have to be held in a fairly specific position, meanwhile, to fire at a specific target. Somatic components : you are moving your hand in a very, very precise manner for 6 seconds. Not with your hands at your side. Not with your arm held out straight in front of you. I don't think there is anything more intricate and precise in D&D then spellcasting. Certainly not aiming an arrow. Once the arrow flies and you let go of the bowstring, you can do pretty much anything with your hand...like maybe stop that blow with your buckler? ;) Morgul
Nom 03-07-07, 02:05 AM	Again we're not talking realism... it's turn based combat! A Bow or Crossbow user can use the Buckler with no penalty to hit and no loss of AC.Not quite. You're reading the wrong part of the sentence. The next sentance refers to melee and thrown weapons, not a bow or crossbow.Agreed. And the final sentence of the paragraph begins "in any case", which is usually taken to apply to the entire preceeding paragraph. Whether this is a good rule is an independent discussion.
crowclub 03-09-07, 06:37 PM	IMO its still a big fat NO
Eikre 03-09-07, 07:11 PM	IMO its still a big fat NO Yes. Right. We know. You have a fetish for pidgin-holing. Your point is well made. I'm going to chime in with a call I'm reasonably sure- from a cursory examination of the thread- hasn't been said: While you're using the bow, you gain no use of a buckler. That means on a full-round attack routine, an archer would be devoting his attention to his shots. Lest he has a special ability (Improved Buckler defense would do it, if I recall), he looses the so-called buckler's defense bonus and whatnot. Now, if he's going to take a standard action to do his Multishot or Precise Shot or just make a single attack, he gets his buckler back once the standard action is taken to completion. If he provokes an Attack of Opportunity in the midst of this shot, he would incur the penalties. Is this RAW? That's debatable. I think it plays to the RAW, although DnD often likes to do strange things in regards to the order of parts of a turn. By the way, an interesting reflection I had on part of the Buckler listing: In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. We look at this, and most of us, I think, presume that "Off-hand" refers to one's non-dominant hand, where a shield is likely to be allocated. I wonder, though. DnD doesn't make us keep track of which of our hands is dominant. I don't think an off-hand is actually described as the non-dominant hand anywhere... So, what could it mean? I think, it's the hand you decide to choose as an off-hand for the purpose of TWF. Think about that; if your off-hand only ever counts as such for purposes of TWF, then off-hands will really only ever come into play when you do a TWF attack scheme. In core DnD, that's only on a full-round action... This interpretation interacts well with my ruling. Then again? Right above that line, it says: This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. Which directly resuggests that offhands are matters of dominance. Ugh. Such a tangle of rules. You know that the Small Shield stats actually represents what a buckler really is, better than the Buckler stats do? The Buckler stats, though, I think would be suitable for.... Oh, perhaps a smallish shield. <3 this game, don't we?
Nom 03-13-07, 10:56 PM	DnD doesn't make us keep track of which of our hands is dominant. I don't think an off-hand is actually described as the non-dominant hand anywhere... So, what could it mean?(1) Check out "off-hand" in the glossary. Also check out the "description" chapter of the PH, which states that a PC may be right- or left-handed. "Change handedness at will" is notably absent. (2) Some things go without saying. The PH also doesn't state that you cannot change sex whenever you desire, nor even that you can't change race whenever you like. Which obviously means that PCs should be able to do both these things, right?