Bullrushed into occupied square [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bullrushed into occupied square [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DMDaddy
11-28-07, 12:58 PM Player keeps trying this maneuver; bullrushing an opponent into an occupied square; either occupied with a wall, pillar, or another creature.

The PHB doesn't say too much about this. I have several options:
1. You can't do it because you will auto fail and fall back prone into your starting square.
2. You can't do it if a wall is the occupied square.
3. If another creature is in the occupied square then they get reflex saves or fall prone.

I just don't know and am tired of debating with the player in question who attempts the same maneuver often.
Merestil Haye
11-28-07, 02:17 PM Player keeps trying this maneuver; bullrushing an opponent into an occupied square; either occupied with a wall, pillar, or another creature.

The PHB doesn't say too much about this. I have several options:
1. You can't do it because you will auto fail and fall back prone into your starting square.
2. You can't do it if a wall is the occupied square.
3. If another creature is in the occupied square then they get reflex saves or fall prone.

I just don't know and am tired of debating with the player in question who attempts the same maneuver often.The principle I suspect you are missing is that movement is movement, whether it is voluntary or not. The rules for a creature ending its movement in an illegal square are the same whether the creature is moving under its own power or being bullrushed.

Determine whether the bullrushed creature could legally occupy the space if it moved there under its own steam. If it cannot, then it cannot be bullrushed into that space.

Creatures that cannot naturally pass through walls cannot be bullrushed into them with enough force to take damage. The resistance they are putting up to the movement is enough to prevent damaging force being applied. Creatures that can move through the walls can't be bullrushed anyway.

A creature cannot end its move in an occupied square. It must end its movement in the last legal space it was bullrushed through. The bullrushing creature must end the movement of the bullrush in the space it was in when it moved the subject out of the space it occupied.

If the bullrushing creature ends its movement in an illegal space because of the premature termination of the bullrush, then the bullrusher must end his turn in that space and fall prone.

Whatever you decide on, adopt a set of principles for resolving such situations and apply them whenever the issue comes up. Short discussions of the specific situation are reasonable, but don't get mired down in long discussions.
magicchupacabra
11-28-07, 06:29 PM Player keeps trying this maneuver; bullrushing an opponent into an occupied square; either occupied with a wall, pillar, or another creature.

The PHB doesn't say too much about this. I have several options:
1. You can't do it because you will auto fail and fall back prone into your starting square.
2. You can't do it if a wall is the occupied square.
3. If another creature is in the occupied square then they get reflex saves or fall prone.

I just don't know and am tired of debating with the player in question who attempts the same maneuver often.

What your player sounds like he wants to do is pick up the shock trooper tact feat and look into the fighter sub levels that give you all kinds of fun benefits when bullrushing. I forget which book its in though and too lazy to go check.

Those two items expand what can happen when you have the right class abilities and feats to do those things that he wants to do. If you're fine with those things being done as long as he's willing to burn the levels and feats for it. It can prove to offer a lot of bullrushing fun for him and gives you set rules to resolve things.
Voran
11-28-07, 08:15 PM Bullrushing someone into an occupied square is basically a Hockey Player's version of trip. You body check them into the plexiglass.

Id also be fine with bullrushing someone into the square of their buddy and potentially knocking both of them down.
VulcanStormwrath
11-28-07, 08:36 PM There's actually a Fighter alternative in Dungeonscape for exactly that. You give up a feat in exchange for doing ridiculously heavy damage with a body check. At higher levels you can give up another bonus feat to double the bonuses and damage.

The Dwarven fighter in my campaign has been using this to devastating effect.

Also the Shock Trooper feat allow for directed bullrushes and bullrushing people into other people to leave them all prone.
Phrennzy
11-28-07, 09:26 PM Can't bullrush someone into a wall, because it's a wall. It blocks movement.

Bullrushing someone into a creature would have no effect, because you can't end movement in an occupied space

Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space

Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

So the creature bullrushed would either remain in it's previous position or move to the next closest area. If it remains in its previous position, the bullrusher would be unable to move forward, and would become prone in his own space.

All of that is pretty lame, IMO. How do you bullrush someone out of a door if they have someone behind them?
DMDaddy
11-29-07, 08:43 AM There's actually a Fighter alternative in Dungeonscape for exactly that. You give up a feat in exchange for doing ridiculously heavy damage with a body check. At higher levels you can give up another bonus feat to double the bonuses and damage.

This will make him happy. He already has Greater Powerful charge from ECS and Improved Bullrush. Since he's already high level, I could take away 2 feats as per Dungeonscape. So, his bullrush into a wall would be:
2d8+5(Gr. Powerful charge) + 8d6+10. Wow. Almost game breaking.

When doing such an attack (bullrush into a wall with Dungeonscape option) I am to assume that both PC and opponent go back to their original spaces, but do not fall prone. For example player is facing an opponent 5' away who is next to a wall. Player bullrushes, moving into opponents square, then pushes opponent into an illegal space (wall). Opponent moves back into last space which is now occupied by PC. Does the PC also move back to his starting space? Or does there have to be a 5' space between the opponent and the wall?

Can you see the confussion?

What book has Shocktrooper?
Merestil Haye
11-29-07, 10:04 AM This will make him happy. He already has Greater Powerful charge from ECS and Improved Bullrush. Since he's already high level, I could take away 2 feats as per Dungeonscape. So, his bullrush into a wall would be:
2d8+5(Gr. Powerful charge) + 8d6+10. Wow. Almost game breaking.

When doing such an attack (bullrush into a wall with Dungeonscape option) I am to assume that both PC and opponent go back to their original spaces, but do not fall prone. For example player is facing an opponent 5' away who is next to a wall. Player bullrushes, moving into opponents square, then pushes opponent into an illegal space (wall). Opponent moves back into last space which is now occupied by PC. Does the PC also move back to his starting space? Or does there have to be a 5' space between the opponent and the wall?

Can you see the confussion?Frankly, no.

The bullrushing creature cannot move the subject out of his space because he is next to a wall. Therfore the subject's movement ends next to the wall - ie he stays where he is.

The creature doing the bullrushing must end his movement in the space he occupied before entering the subject's space. If that is occupied, he must drop prone in that space unless the occupying creature is already prone or the two can peacefully coexist.

What book has Shocktrooper?Complete Warrior.
DMDaddy
11-29-07, 07:34 PM The player is ecstatic. Shocktrooper in CW and Dungeonscape fighter class atlernatives.

Ok, I'm strait on the illegal space issue. I checked out the rules and see it. But,

Dungeonscape fighter class alternatives is throwing me a loop. It states on pg 10; "...you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing...damage..."

This sounds like an exception to the rules of ending movement in an illegal space. Please clarify.
Myers
11-30-07, 09:34 AM The player is ecstatic. Shocktrooper in CW and Dungeonscape fighter class atlernatives.

Ok, I'm strait on the illegal space issue. I checked out the rules and see it. But,

Dungeonscape fighter class alternatives is throwing me a loop. It states on pg 10; "...you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing...damage..."

This sounds like an exception to the rules of ending movement in an illegal space. Please clarify.

You don't end movement inside the wall, he stops before the wall and takes damage, you stop before the wall. Thus you both are in legal squares at the end of the turn
Jutter
12-04-07, 08:04 AM I'm untrained, but if I want to bodycheck my opponent against a wall in a fistfight I'm perfectly capable of trying. So if the rules say this can't be done, I believe it's up to the DM to improvise. If I had to make a ruling on the spot, it would have been something like this:

Resolve the bull rush as normal, but the defender gets 1d6 damage per 5 feet he would have moved. The attacker should succeed on a reflex save (DC 15) or take the same amount of damage. In the end, he IS throwing himself against a wall (or against the guy in full plate standing in front of it). That hurts.
Sosthenes
12-04-07, 09:06 AM Increasing damage per square assumes you're accelerating. I don't think this would be the case with most bull rushes, which end up simply pushing the enemy. This is more a rugby push than a slam where the distance is used to measure force.
DMDaddy
12-04-07, 11:09 AM Dungeonscape fighter class alternatives is throwing me a loop. It states on pg 10; "...you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing...damage..."

Again, I point to the wording in Dungeonscape. How do others interpret this?
Merestil Haye
12-04-07, 12:11 PM Again, I point to the wording in Dungeonscape. How do others interpret this?The general rules on bullrushing apply, except where explicitly changed by the text of the ability.

The only thing this changes is that the victim takes damage. Nothing else.
Sosthenes
12-04-07, 01:12 PM I'll have to agree. The "he stops as normal" indicates what he does, i.e. the highlighted part doesn't equal actual, but projected movement.
VulcanStormwrath
12-04-07, 01:32 PM If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object Again, I point to the wording in Dungeonscape. How do others interpret this?

Tree, Pillar, Creature 2 size categories bigger,Gate, Railing etc.

I'd rule that when combined with Shock Trooper, if the second person makes the strength check and doesn't move, the first person is crushed between the two of you.

In this case into means up against. Although with the bonus to strength checks to break down doors you could definitely, with a high enough result apply the crushing damage, check the results against the door's break DC and if it exceeds, take the poor bastard through the splintered door, with Shock Trooper, probably taking out the guy guarding it on the other side with a bullrush as well.

Ouch!
Marcus Majarra
12-04-07, 04:22 PM Creature 2 size categories bigger
Careful there. The ability explicitly states that it has to be a solid object, which invalidates bullrushing against another creature.

My ruling is simpler. The bullrush has to push the creature against some kind of object solid barrier that would prevent the bull rush from continuing. This includes walls, low walls, boulders/trees that occupy full squares, columns, etc.
Voran
12-05-07, 04:04 AM My thought is tho, that it seems a bit off that by simply standing by a wall, you are now completely immune to bull rushing if that would push you in direction of said wall.

I mean, if bull rushing failure results in me having to move back where I was when I started, and if that original spot is now occupied, I fall prone, it seems fair to me that if you bullrush someone into a space that is occupied, he falls prone.
Marcus Majarra
12-05-07, 01:01 PM My thought is tho, that it seems a bit off that by simply standing by a wall, you are now completely immune to bull rushing if that would push you in direction of said wall.

I mean, if bull rushing failure results in me having to move back where I was when I started, and if that original spot is now occupied, I fall prone, it seems fair to me that if you bullrush someone into a space that is occupied, he falls prone.
Have you considered how much easier it would be to simply trip the character to get him prone? Instead of costing you both your movement and your standard action, you merely need an attack, and rather than beat the opposed Str check by at least 5, you just need to beat it.
Voran
12-06-07, 01:56 AM Have you considered how much easier it would be to simply trip the character to get him prone? Instead of costing you both your movement and your standard action, you merely need an attack, and rather than beat the opposed Str check by at least 5, you just need to beat it.

Depends on build I suppose, if you've got imp bull rush, but not imp trip, you'd be better off bullrushing than tripping, since you won't draw an AoO, and you're more likely to have it work, with the +4. Likewise, if you have Imp Trip, there's really no reason to try bullrushing at all. Bullrushing is good versus nimble types, since unlike tripping, they can't sub their dex score into the check to resist.
DMDaddy
12-06-07, 07:10 AM Depends on build

The build in question; the reason I started this thread:
A Warforged Ftr8/wiz1/Artificer1/Warforged Juggernaut5
Improved Bullrush; Expert Bullrush; Superiour Bullrush;
Powerful charge; greater powerful charge;
Dungeonscape alternative class feature: Dungeon Crashing I and II

The player wants to know why he can't smash someone into a wall. The rules really don't allow such an action. An example is an opponent in a corner can't be bullrushed; player sees this as rules problem.

From SRD:
If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result.

This rule is poorly written for several reasons.
1. You have to enter into the opponents square
2. To move the opponent further than 5 feet requires that you move with him.
3. Nothing is said about bullrushing into objects, ledges, holes, etc...
4. Only two situations are given for opponent and attacker falling prone, nothing else.

Some of you have offered good advice, and yes, I'm most likely going to have to house rule this. Others, however, have given answers just as vague as the rules themselves on Bullrush. I've checked the FAQs and Erratta and find nothing.
Merestil Haye
12-06-07, 07:46 AM It's a mistake to apply real-world physics to a situation where the rules actually tell you what to do. The "game physics" - the rules - are often simplified for ease of play, and to save games from grinding to a halt while people untrained in the area of collision analysis (or even 'O' level physics) try and work out what would happen.

You use real-world physics only where the rules are utterly silent on what would happen. The game rules do tell you what is happening here, so real-world experience does not apply.

There's no way the rules can model what happens accurately, and neither do they want to. They're written with the philosophy that it's better to be easy to use than accurately describe the behaviour of objects in the real world.

If you want more "realism" in this area, fine. There are consequences for playability, in that everything will bog down while you and the bullrusher hash out the fine points of what will happen this time while everyone else sits and waits.
DMDaddy
12-06-07, 09:42 AM You use real-world physics only where the rules are utterly silent on what would happen. The game rules do tell you what is happening here, so real-world experience does not apply.

There are consequences for playability, in that everything will bog down while you and the bullrusher hash out the fine points of what will happen this time while everyone else sits and waits.

No, I'm not trying to apply real-world physics. I'm trying to find rules on pushing; more specificaly, pushing an opponent into a wall, object, or another creature. The rules do seem silent on these issues, unless you are willing to show me were they are not.

Bullrush seems to address this only partialy, while players, who are allowed to try anything they can think of (part of the game), are trying to push opponents into walls, objects, and creatures; or over rails (partialy obstructed terrain).

As far as play bogging down; that works both ways. When rules aren't explicit about various situations that can come up, then play can bog down while everyone trys to find a rule
or create a new rule.

As DM, my job is to abjudicate this situation. Sure, I can just say, sorry, there are no rules so you can't do it. But, this player is playing a specific build/type of charger/bullrusher. All those feats and abilities in the rules, but no way for the player to do what he thinks should be an easy fix. Gee, that sort of makes me look like a bad DM who won't fix the problem.

So you tell me, what should I do?
1. Find rules for the situation
2. Or make rules to fix it.

Apparently, there are no rules for such situations (which seems odd seeing all the rules and feats for pushing and charging). Therefore I guess I must create my own houserules.

Sure, everything so far that has been pointed out is good. But, what has not been addressed is:
1. Bullrushing an opponent who is against a wall
2. Bullrushing an opponent into another opponent who is against a wall
3. Bullrushing an opponent over a rail
4. Bullrushing an opponent into a pillar or tree or table or couch, etc...
5. Bullrushing an opponent into another opponent
Marcus Majarra
12-06-07, 05:48 PM No, I'm not trying to apply real-world physics. I'm trying to find rules on pushing; more specificaly, pushing an opponent into a wall, object, or another creature. The rules do seem silent on these issues, unless you are willing to show me were they are not.
Rules for pushing a creature against a wall or object are covered by the Dungeoncrasher alternate feature. You need to have this ability to push a creature against a solid object to any effect.

Rules for pushing a creature against another creature are covered by the Shock Trooper feat. You need this feat to have the ability to push a creature against another creature.

Essentially, the maneuvers you're looking for aren't accessible to anyone. Just like training to use your Dex mod on attack rolls with certain weapons requires special training (i.e. Weapon Finesse feat), so too do these improvements on bull rush.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DMDaddy 11-28-07, 12:58 PM	Player keeps trying this maneuver; bullrushing an opponent into an occupied square; either occupied with a wall, pillar, or another creature. The PHB doesn't say too much about this. I have several options: 1. You can't do it because you will auto fail and fall back prone into your starting square. 2. You can't do it if a wall is the occupied square. 3. If another creature is in the occupied square then they get reflex saves or fall prone. I just don't know and am tired of debating with the player in question who attempts the same maneuver often.
Merestil Haye 11-28-07, 02:17 PM	Player keeps trying this maneuver; bullrushing an opponent into an occupied square; either occupied with a wall, pillar, or another creature. The PHB doesn't say too much about this. I have several options: 1. You can't do it because you will auto fail and fall back prone into your starting square. 2. You can't do it if a wall is the occupied square. 3. If another creature is in the occupied square then they get reflex saves or fall prone. I just don't know and am tired of debating with the player in question who attempts the same maneuver often.The principle I suspect you are missing is that movement is movement, whether it is voluntary or not. The rules for a creature ending its movement in an illegal square are the same whether the creature is moving under its own power or being bullrushed. Determine whether the bullrushed creature could legally occupy the space if it moved there under its own steam. If it cannot, then it cannot be bullrushed into that space. Creatures that cannot naturally pass through walls cannot be bullrushed into them with enough force to take damage. The resistance they are putting up to the movement is enough to prevent damaging force being applied. Creatures that can move through the walls can't be bullrushed anyway. A creature cannot end its move in an occupied square. It must end its movement in the last legal space it was bullrushed through. The bullrushing creature must end the movement of the bullrush in the space it was in when it moved the subject out of the space it occupied. If the bullrushing creature ends its movement in an illegal space because of the premature termination of the bullrush, then the bullrusher must end his turn in that space and fall prone. Whatever you decide on, adopt a set of principles for resolving such situations and apply them whenever the issue comes up. Short discussions of the specific situation are reasonable, but don't get mired down in long discussions.
magicchupacabra 11-28-07, 06:29 PM	Player keeps trying this maneuver; bullrushing an opponent into an occupied square; either occupied with a wall, pillar, or another creature. The PHB doesn't say too much about this. I have several options: 1. You can't do it because you will auto fail and fall back prone into your starting square. 2. You can't do it if a wall is the occupied square. 3. If another creature is in the occupied square then they get reflex saves or fall prone. I just don't know and am tired of debating with the player in question who attempts the same maneuver often. What your player sounds like he wants to do is pick up the shock trooper tact feat and look into the fighter sub levels that give you all kinds of fun benefits when bullrushing. I forget which book its in though and too lazy to go check. Those two items expand what can happen when you have the right class abilities and feats to do those things that he wants to do. If you're fine with those things being done as long as he's willing to burn the levels and feats for it. It can prove to offer a lot of bullrushing fun for him and gives you set rules to resolve things.
Voran 11-28-07, 08:15 PM	Bullrushing someone into an occupied square is basically a Hockey Player's version of trip. You body check them into the plexiglass. Id also be fine with bullrushing someone into the square of their buddy and potentially knocking both of them down.
VulcanStormwrath 11-28-07, 08:36 PM	There's actually a Fighter alternative in Dungeonscape for exactly that. You give up a feat in exchange for doing ridiculously heavy damage with a body check. At higher levels you can give up another bonus feat to double the bonuses and damage. The Dwarven fighter in my campaign has been using this to devastating effect. Also the Shock Trooper feat allow for directed bullrushes and bullrushing people into other people to leave them all prone.
Phrennzy 11-28-07, 09:26 PM	Can't bullrush someone into a wall, because it's a wall. It blocks movement. Bullrushing someone into a creature would have no effect, because you can't end movement in an occupied space Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer. So the creature bullrushed would either remain in it's previous position or move to the next closest area. If it remains in its previous position, the bullrusher would be unable to move forward, and would become prone in his own space. All of that is pretty lame, IMO. How do you bullrush someone out of a door if they have someone behind them?
DMDaddy 11-29-07, 08:43 AM	There's actually a Fighter alternative in Dungeonscape for exactly that. You give up a feat in exchange for doing ridiculously heavy damage with a body check. At higher levels you can give up another bonus feat to double the bonuses and damage. This will make him happy. He already has Greater Powerful charge from ECS and Improved Bullrush. Since he's already high level, I could take away 2 feats as per Dungeonscape. So, his bullrush into a wall would be: 2d8+5(Gr. Powerful charge) + 8d6+10. Wow. Almost game breaking. When doing such an attack (bullrush into a wall with Dungeonscape option) I am to assume that both PC and opponent go back to their original spaces, but do not fall prone. For example player is facing an opponent 5' away who is next to a wall. Player bullrushes, moving into opponents square, then pushes opponent into an illegal space (wall). Opponent moves back into last space which is now occupied by PC. Does the PC also move back to his starting space? Or does there have to be a 5' space between the opponent and the wall? Can you see the confussion? What book has Shocktrooper?
Merestil Haye 11-29-07, 10:04 AM	This will make him happy. He already has Greater Powerful charge from ECS and Improved Bullrush. Since he's already high level, I could take away 2 feats as per Dungeonscape. So, his bullrush into a wall would be: 2d8+5(Gr. Powerful charge) + 8d6+10. Wow. Almost game breaking. When doing such an attack (bullrush into a wall with Dungeonscape option) I am to assume that both PC and opponent go back to their original spaces, but do not fall prone. For example player is facing an opponent 5' away who is next to a wall. Player bullrushes, moving into opponents square, then pushes opponent into an illegal space (wall). Opponent moves back into last space which is now occupied by PC. Does the PC also move back to his starting space? Or does there have to be a 5' space between the opponent and the wall? Can you see the confussion?Frankly, no. The bullrushing creature cannot move the subject out of his space because he is next to a wall. Therfore the subject's movement ends next to the wall - ie he stays where he is. The creature doing the bullrushing must end his movement in the space he occupied before entering the subject's space. If that is occupied, he must drop prone in that space unless the occupying creature is already prone or the two can peacefully coexist. What book has Shocktrooper?Complete Warrior.
DMDaddy 11-29-07, 07:34 PM	The player is ecstatic. Shocktrooper in CW and Dungeonscape fighter class atlernatives. Ok, I'm strait on the illegal space issue. I checked out the rules and see it. But, Dungeonscape fighter class alternatives is throwing me a loop. It states on pg 10; "...you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing...damage..." This sounds like an exception to the rules of ending movement in an illegal space. Please clarify.
Myers 11-30-07, 09:34 AM	The player is ecstatic. Shocktrooper in CW and Dungeonscape fighter class atlernatives. Ok, I'm strait on the illegal space issue. I checked out the rules and see it. But, Dungeonscape fighter class alternatives is throwing me a loop. It states on pg 10; "...you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing...damage..." This sounds like an exception to the rules of ending movement in an illegal space. Please clarify. You don't end movement inside the wall, he stops before the wall and takes damage, you stop before the wall. Thus you both are in legal squares at the end of the turn
Jutter 12-04-07, 08:04 AM	I'm untrained, but if I want to bodycheck my opponent against a wall in a fistfight I'm perfectly capable of trying. So if the rules say this can't be done, I believe it's up to the DM to improvise. If I had to make a ruling on the spot, it would have been something like this: Resolve the bull rush as normal, but the defender gets 1d6 damage per 5 feet he would have moved. The attacker should succeed on a reflex save (DC 15) or take the same amount of damage. In the end, he IS throwing himself against a wall (or against the guy in full plate standing in front of it). That hurts.
Sosthenes 12-04-07, 09:06 AM	Increasing damage per square assumes you're accelerating. I don't think this would be the case with most bull rushes, which end up simply pushing the enemy. This is more a rugby push than a slam where the distance is used to measure force.
DMDaddy 12-04-07, 11:09 AM	Dungeonscape fighter class alternatives is throwing me a loop. It states on pg 10; "...you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing...damage..." Again, I point to the wording in Dungeonscape. How do others interpret this?
Merestil Haye 12-04-07, 12:11 PM	Again, I point to the wording in Dungeonscape. How do others interpret this?The general rules on bullrushing apply, except where explicitly changed by the text of the ability. The only thing this changes is that the victim takes damage. Nothing else.
Sosthenes 12-04-07, 01:12 PM	I'll have to agree. The "he stops as normal" indicates what he does, i.e. the highlighted part doesn't equal actual, but projected movement.
VulcanStormwrath 12-04-07, 01:32 PM	If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object Again, I point to the wording in Dungeonscape. How do others interpret this? Tree, Pillar, Creature 2 size categories bigger,Gate, Railing etc. I'd rule that when combined with Shock Trooper, if the second person makes the strength check and doesn't move, the first person is crushed between the two of you. In this case into means up against. Although with the bonus to strength checks to break down doors you could definitely, with a high enough result apply the crushing damage, check the results against the door's break DC and if it exceeds, take the poor bastard through the splintered door, with Shock Trooper, probably taking out the guy guarding it on the other side with a bullrush as well. Ouch!
Marcus Majarra 12-04-07, 04:22 PM	Creature 2 size categories bigger Careful there. The ability explicitly states that it has to be a solid object, which invalidates bullrushing against another creature. My ruling is simpler. The bullrush has to push the creature against some kind of object solid barrier that would prevent the bull rush from continuing. This includes walls, low walls, boulders/trees that occupy full squares, columns, etc.
Voran 12-05-07, 04:04 AM	My thought is tho, that it seems a bit off that by simply standing by a wall, you are now completely immune to bull rushing if that would push you in direction of said wall. I mean, if bull rushing failure results in me having to move back where I was when I started, and if that original spot is now occupied, I fall prone, it seems fair to me that if you bullrush someone into a space that is occupied, he falls prone.
Marcus Majarra 12-05-07, 01:01 PM	My thought is tho, that it seems a bit off that by simply standing by a wall, you are now completely immune to bull rushing if that would push you in direction of said wall. I mean, if bull rushing failure results in me having to move back where I was when I started, and if that original spot is now occupied, I fall prone, it seems fair to me that if you bullrush someone into a space that is occupied, he falls prone. Have you considered how much easier it would be to simply trip the character to get him prone? Instead of costing you both your movement and your standard action, you merely need an attack, and rather than beat the opposed Str check by at least 5, you just need to beat it.
Voran 12-06-07, 01:56 AM	Have you considered how much easier it would be to simply trip the character to get him prone? Instead of costing you both your movement and your standard action, you merely need an attack, and rather than beat the opposed Str check by at least 5, you just need to beat it. Depends on build I suppose, if you've got imp bull rush, but not imp trip, you'd be better off bullrushing than tripping, since you won't draw an AoO, and you're more likely to have it work, with the +4. Likewise, if you have Imp Trip, there's really no reason to try bullrushing at all. Bullrushing is good versus nimble types, since unlike tripping, they can't sub their dex score into the check to resist.
DMDaddy 12-06-07, 07:10 AM	Depends on build The build in question; the reason I started this thread: A Warforged Ftr8/wiz1/Artificer1/Warforged Juggernaut5 Improved Bullrush; Expert Bullrush; Superiour Bullrush; Powerful charge; greater powerful charge; Dungeonscape alternative class feature: Dungeon Crashing I and II The player wants to know why he can't smash someone into a wall. The rules really don't allow such an action. An example is an opponent in a corner can't be bullrushed; player sees this as rules problem. From SRD: If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. This rule is poorly written for several reasons. 1. You have to enter into the opponents square 2. To move the opponent further than 5 feet requires that you move with him. 3. Nothing is said about bullrushing into objects, ledges, holes, etc... 4. Only two situations are given for opponent and attacker falling prone, nothing else. Some of you have offered good advice, and yes, I'm most likely going to have to house rule this. Others, however, have given answers just as vague as the rules themselves on Bullrush. I've checked the FAQs and Erratta and find nothing.
Merestil Haye 12-06-07, 07:46 AM	It's a mistake to apply real-world physics to a situation where the rules actually tell you what to do. The "game physics" - the rules - are often simplified for ease of play, and to save games from grinding to a halt while people untrained in the area of collision analysis (or even 'O' level physics) try and work out what would happen. You use real-world physics only where the rules are utterly silent on what would happen. The game rules do tell you what is happening here, so real-world experience does not apply. There's no way the rules can model what happens accurately, and neither do they want to. They're written with the philosophy that it's better to be easy to use than accurately describe the behaviour of objects in the real world. If you want more "realism" in this area, fine. There are consequences for playability, in that everything will bog down while you and the bullrusher hash out the fine points of what will happen this time while everyone else sits and waits.
DMDaddy 12-06-07, 09:42 AM	You use real-world physics only where the rules are utterly silent on what would happen. The game rules do tell you what is happening here, so real-world experience does not apply. There are consequences for playability, in that everything will bog down while you and the bullrusher hash out the fine points of what will happen this time while everyone else sits and waits. No, I'm not trying to apply real-world physics. I'm trying to find rules on pushing; more specificaly, pushing an opponent into a wall, object, or another creature. The rules do seem silent on these issues, unless you are willing to show me were they are not. Bullrush seems to address this only partialy, while players, who are allowed to try anything they can think of (part of the game), are trying to push opponents into walls, objects, and creatures; or over rails (partialy obstructed terrain). As far as play bogging down; that works both ways. When rules aren't explicit about various situations that can come up, then play can bog down while everyone trys to find a rule or create a new rule. As DM, my job is to abjudicate this situation. Sure, I can just say, sorry, there are no rules so you can't do it. But, this player is playing a specific build/type of charger/bullrusher. All those feats and abilities in the rules, but no way for the player to do what he thinks should be an easy fix. Gee, that sort of makes me look like a bad DM who won't fix the problem. So you tell me, what should I do? 1. Find rules for the situation 2. Or make rules to fix it. Apparently, there are no rules for such situations (which seems odd seeing all the rules and feats for pushing and charging). Therefore I guess I must create my own houserules. Sure, everything so far that has been pointed out is good. But, what has not been addressed is: 1. Bullrushing an opponent who is against a wall 2. Bullrushing an opponent into another opponent who is against a wall 3. Bullrushing an opponent over a rail 4. Bullrushing an opponent into a pillar or tree or table or couch, etc... 5. Bullrushing an opponent into another opponent
Marcus Majarra 12-06-07, 05:48 PM	No, I'm not trying to apply real-world physics. I'm trying to find rules on pushing; more specificaly, pushing an opponent into a wall, object, or another creature. The rules do seem silent on these issues, unless you are willing to show me were they are not. Rules for pushing a creature against a wall or object are covered by the Dungeoncrasher alternate feature. You need to have this ability to push a creature against a solid object to any effect. Rules for pushing a creature against another creature are covered by the Shock Trooper feat. You need this feat to have the ability to push a creature against another creature. Essentially, the maneuvers you're looking for aren't accessible to anyone. Just like training to use your Dex mod on attack rolls with certain weapons requires special training (i.e. Weapon Finesse feat), so too do these improvements on bull rush.