Bullseye lantern and concealment in combat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bullseye lantern and concealment in combat [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Coldkilla
05-14-07, 02:58 PM Bullseye lantern puts out a 60ft cone of bright light, and shadowy light to a 120ft cone. Cones are defined in the game as being as wide across at their far terminus (base of the cone) as they are in length, so the bullseye cone is 60ft across at the bright light margin, 120ft across at the shadowy light margin. Using trig functions, the angle at the cone's source is approx 53 degrees, i.e. you can only illuminate 53 degrees at once of the 360 degrees around you.

Most of the time this doesn't matter very much, but now let's say you're in combat with creatures who have light- or darkness-based abilities, e.g. Dark Creepers who use Shadow Cloak (Su) to increase their concealment and resulting miss chances.

How do you play a light source that depends on facing in a combat system that explicitly does not have the concept of facing?
mvincent
05-14-07, 03:29 PM Cones are defined in the game as being as wide across at their far terminus (base of the cone) as they are in lengthWhere?

the angle at the cone's source is approx 53 degrees, i.e. you can only illuminate 53 degrees at once of the 360 degrees around you.Cones are 90 degree templates (see here (http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/1344/prismaticcone60ftfh7.jpg))

How do you play a light source that depends on facing in a combat system that explicitly does not have the concept of facing?1) Specify the angle each round (a steel sqwire template would make this easier), or
2) Treat it as a regular lantern while the wielder is moving around in combat.
Coldkilla
05-14-07, 03:42 PM My mistake -- I don't know where I got the idea about cones being as wide at the base as they are long. Anyone know if that is in 3E or some other ruleset?

So even with a quarter-circle 90 degree arc, if you're standing in the middle of the room, you can only light up one quarter of the room at a time.

The combat rules abstract facing, and combatants are treated as if they can see around them in a full 360 degree circle just about all the time. So it seems odd to fix the direction of the lantern each round. Any support out there for free, immediate or swift actions to change facing of the bullseye lantern during the round?
Xykon
05-14-07, 10:09 PM The combat rules abstract facing, and combatants are treated as if they can see around them in a full 360 degree circle just about all the time. So it seems odd to fix the direction of the lantern each round. Any support out there for free, immediate or swift actions to change facing of the bullseye lantern during the round?Um, no i think its perfectly normal. As a matter of fact i have had many encounters which are make or break just because of light source.

Basically each round i ask the PC holding the bullseye lantern on what facing does he want the bullseye lantern to be, then i have him mark it on the battle board. Depending on what area i illuminated, only targets within those area can be seen -- which will be really bad if they missed out the rogue.

So they have to be really careful on deciding where to point the lantern as it will be that angle for the rest of the round. Also, if they (the PC's) change their facing, they also change the angle.
Coldkilla
05-14-07, 11:14 PM Um, no i think its perfectly normal.

Really? If a PC with multiple attacks is flanked by two opponents, you think it is perfectly normal that he can divide up his attacks for the round between the two targets, flipping back and forth if he wants, but the lantern is fixed to only point at one of them for the entire round?

Or if a PC needs to move so he initially fixes the direction of the lantern in front of him, but ends his movement up against a wall. You're saying the lantern can't be readjusted to point back into the room/hallway this round -- he has to wait til the next round?

Is this a question for the Sage? Did WotC make a huge mistake in allowing a continual cone effect that depends on facing into a game that explicitly eliminates facing from its combat rules? In the absence of RAW that addresses this, everyone seems to have come up with their own houserule.

FYI, the circumstance that brought up this question came up in our last session. We were fighting two Dark Creepers underground in a 30x30ft room with only a bullseye lantern for a light source. I made the assumption that my PC could dynamically adjust the lantern to point at whatever he was attacking with his longsword. The DM seemed to assume...well, I'm not sure what the hell he was thinking. Either that the lantern was pointed anywhere but at the Creepers, or that the lantern could only give off shadowy light and not bright light. Either way, the Creepers both got total concealment miss chances from their Shadow Cloak ability, and our DM never asked or mentioned anything about our lantern.
Phrennzy
05-15-07, 10:07 AM I would simply allow the PC holding the lantern to point it wherever he wanted to on his action. He would not be able to change it's cone at any time other than his action.

This allows the monster to run out of the light and, with enough movement, close in and hack.

Then on the PCs turn, he can rotate the light and hack. If he was smart, he'd back into the corner and flood the whole room with light.

And if the monster was smart, he'd sunder the lantern.
fukifino
05-15-07, 07:10 PM As a possibly overly complicated solution I would probably do the following:

-Changing the direction of the lantern is a free action. You can do this any number of times on your turn. At the end of your turn, the direction of the lantern is fixed until your next turn.

-Objects/Creatures that were not illuminated by your lantern at the beginning of your turn have 20% concealment until they begin a turn in an illuminated square.

The latter rule could possibly cause some points of contention and might be a hassle to track, depending on how complicated the battle was, but I would argue that it would best simulate the chaotic feel of a wildly spinning cone of light careening around a room while swords clashed, spells are slung, and unnamed horrors of the dark skitter about trying to bite your ankles off.

Your mileage may vary.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Coldkilla 05-14-07, 02:58 PM	Bullseye lantern puts out a 60ft cone of bright light, and shadowy light to a 120ft cone. Cones are defined in the game as being as wide across at their far terminus (base of the cone) as they are in length, so the bullseye cone is 60ft across at the bright light margin, 120ft across at the shadowy light margin. Using trig functions, the angle at the cone's source is approx 53 degrees, i.e. you can only illuminate 53 degrees at once of the 360 degrees around you. Most of the time this doesn't matter very much, but now let's say you're in combat with creatures who have light- or darkness-based abilities, e.g. Dark Creepers who use Shadow Cloak (Su) to increase their concealment and resulting miss chances. How do you play a light source that depends on facing in a combat system that explicitly does not have the concept of facing?
mvincent 05-14-07, 03:29 PM	Cones are defined in the game as being as wide across at their far terminus (base of the cone) as they are in lengthWhere? the angle at the cone's source is approx 53 degrees, i.e. you can only illuminate 53 degrees at once of the 360 degrees around you.Cones are 90 degree templates (see here (http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/1344/prismaticcone60ftfh7.jpg)) How do you play a light source that depends on facing in a combat system that explicitly does not have the concept of facing?1) Specify the angle each round (a steel sqwire template would make this easier), or 2) Treat it as a regular lantern while the wielder is moving around in combat.
Coldkilla 05-14-07, 03:42 PM	My mistake -- I don't know where I got the idea about cones being as wide at the base as they are long. Anyone know if that is in 3E or some other ruleset? So even with a quarter-circle 90 degree arc, if you're standing in the middle of the room, you can only light up one quarter of the room at a time. The combat rules abstract facing, and combatants are treated as if they can see around them in a full 360 degree circle just about all the time. So it seems odd to fix the direction of the lantern each round. Any support out there for free, immediate or swift actions to change facing of the bullseye lantern during the round?
Xykon 05-14-07, 10:09 PM	The combat rules abstract facing, and combatants are treated as if they can see around them in a full 360 degree circle just about all the time. So it seems odd to fix the direction of the lantern each round. Any support out there for free, immediate or swift actions to change facing of the bullseye lantern during the round?Um, no i think its perfectly normal. As a matter of fact i have had many encounters which are make or break just because of light source. Basically each round i ask the PC holding the bullseye lantern on what facing does he want the bullseye lantern to be, then i have him mark it on the battle board. Depending on what area i illuminated, only targets within those area can be seen -- which will be really bad if they missed out the rogue. So they have to be really careful on deciding where to point the lantern as it will be that angle for the rest of the round. Also, if they (the PC's) change their facing, they also change the angle.
Coldkilla 05-14-07, 11:14 PM	Um, no i think its perfectly normal. Really? If a PC with multiple attacks is flanked by two opponents, you think it is perfectly normal that he can divide up his attacks for the round between the two targets, flipping back and forth if he wants, but the lantern is fixed to only point at one of them for the entire round? Or if a PC needs to move so he initially fixes the direction of the lantern in front of him, but ends his movement up against a wall. You're saying the lantern can't be readjusted to point back into the room/hallway this round -- he has to wait til the next round? Is this a question for the Sage? Did WotC make a huge mistake in allowing a continual cone effect that depends on facing into a game that explicitly eliminates facing from its combat rules? In the absence of RAW that addresses this, everyone seems to have come up with their own houserule. FYI, the circumstance that brought up this question came up in our last session. We were fighting two Dark Creepers underground in a 30x30ft room with only a bullseye lantern for a light source. I made the assumption that my PC could dynamically adjust the lantern to point at whatever he was attacking with his longsword. The DM seemed to assume...well, I'm not sure what the hell he was thinking. Either that the lantern was pointed anywhere but at the Creepers, or that the lantern could only give off shadowy light and not bright light. Either way, the Creepers both got total concealment miss chances from their Shadow Cloak ability, and our DM never asked or mentioned anything about our lantern.
Phrennzy 05-15-07, 10:07 AM	I would simply allow the PC holding the lantern to point it wherever he wanted to on his action. He would not be able to change it's cone at any time other than his action. This allows the monster to run out of the light and, with enough movement, close in and hack. Then on the PCs turn, he can rotate the light and hack. If he was smart, he'd back into the corner and flood the whole room with light. And if the monster was smart, he'd sunder the lantern.
fukifino 05-15-07, 07:10 PM	As a possibly overly complicated solution I would probably do the following: -Changing the direction of the lantern is a free action. You can do this any number of times on your turn. At the end of your turn, the direction of the lantern is fixed until your next turn. -Objects/Creatures that were not illuminated by your lantern at the beginning of your turn have 20% concealment until they begin a turn in an illuminated square. The latter rule could possibly cause some points of contention and might be a hassle to track, depending on how complicated the battle was, but I would argue that it would best simulate the chaotic feel of a wildly spinning cone of light careening around a room while swords clashed, spells are slung, and unnamed horrors of the dark skitter about trying to bite your ankles off. Your mileage may vary.