Burrowing creatures and attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Burrowing creatures and attacks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
04-04-08, 11:34 PM It is a Xorn's turn, and he decides to charge his enemy. The line of the charge takes a slight downward tilt such that he is "swimming" through the stone floor, but can reach his enemy from underneath. Now, his attack is a bite attack. Will the enemy have total concealment against the Xorn? Or can the xorn keep enough of himself above the surface to see the location of his enemy? What about attacks of opportunity? Does cover apply from the stone floor?
wrecan
04-05-08, 08:46 AM Xorns have tremorsense. So as long as the character is touching the ground, the xorn knows precisely where he is. The description of the xorn indicates it cannot attack while in the earth, so it would have to emerge before attacking. Unless the victim is flatfooted, this generally means proviking an attack of opportunity.
tos_shai_hulud
04-05-08, 06:43 PM Xorns have tremorsense. So as long as the character is touching the ground, the xorn knows precisely where he is. The description of the xorn indicates it cannot attack while in the earth, so it would have to emerge before attacking. Unless the victim is flatfooted, this generally means proviking an attack of opportunity.

I am reading the description of the Xorn, and I'm not seeing the reference indicating their inability to attack while in the earth. The closest that I have seen is their tactic:

A xorn’s favorite mode of attack is to wait just beneath a stone surface until a foe comes within reach, then emerge suddenly. Groups of xorns often send one of their number to the surface to negotiate for food while the remainder position themselves for a surprise attack.

But that just describes their proclivity to emerging. The entry itself says nothing about their inability to attack while submerged. Is there another source indicating that this is so?

Edit: The one caveat that I missed is that burrowing creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. I am not sure if the Xorn description that:
A xorn can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water.
allows them to charge or not, though. A fish can charge through water, so it may be that Xorn can charge through earth.
wrecan
04-05-08, 06:49 PM No, that's why I said it was an indication, not a dictate. Xorn are not stupid though. If they could attack while gliding, one would think they would attack while gliding.
tos_shai_hulud
04-05-08, 06:59 PM True. Of course, the nature of their emergence is not explicitly explained. Emerging directly beneath a foe would be a bull rush attempt that the defender may not be capable of taking an attack of opportunity against. The rules for this seem non-existent to me. Further, if the xorn has its mouth open as it emerges, it may be able to bite and bull rush at the same time. Since no dirt or stone is being displaced, the unsuspecting victim likely would not know that anything was amiss until he was within the xorn's powerful jaws. Again, the rules surrounding the xorn are sadly lacking.
tos_shai_hulud
04-05-08, 07:04 PM Specifically, the issue that I am running into, a cleric of the Earth domain went out of his way to track down a xorn that he could command. So, this 6th level cleric has a pair of minor xorn at his disposal. We are looking into attack options for those xorn.
wrecan
04-05-08, 10:35 PM It's a good question. I don't think it's explicitly covered by the rules.
Someone
04-06-08, 01:24 AM Just to throw another wrench in the works, under the description of the burrow movement mode, it says the creature cannot run or charge while burrowing. Also, tremorsense doesn't say anything about negating the miss chances for not being able to actually see the target.

Anyway, I think one way to handle this is to treat it as a 3-dimensional combat, with the half-buried xorn attacking from under the target.
tos_shai_hulud
04-06-08, 05:59 AM Just to throw another wrench in the works, under the description of the burrow movement mode, it says the creature cannot run or charge while burrowing. Also, tremorsense doesn't say anything about negating the miss chances for not being able to actually see the target.

Anyway, I think one way to handle this is to treat it as a 3-dimensional combat, with the half-buried xorn attacking from under the target.

Yes, the issue with no charge or run while burrowing was mentioned, however, the xorn entry says that they travel through earth and stone "as a fish through water". Since fish can charge and run through water, it seems that the xorn special ability overrides this part of burrow, although the figurative language may be interpreted in many ways.
wrecan
04-06-08, 08:17 AM The "fish through water" message seems more a descriptive way to describe why it leaves no tunnel. Generally, rules trump description. That said, although a xorn cannot run or charge while burrowing, it doesn't say it cann't attack from the earth.

But here's another way to look at it. Burrowing says: "Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing)"

A xorn is not incorporeal. So I would rule that when burrowing through rock and earth, it still occupies the space, momentarily displacing the earth that had been their before it entered the square, and when it leaves, the person above does not fall because the earth is instantaneously replaced with no tunnel left behind. So when it is under a person and attacking it, it is both visible and attackable.

Now, a xorn with spring attack would be a devastating opponent.
Lilinthra
04-06-08, 11:23 AM The Xorn's normal movement speed and burrow speed are identical. Between that and the Earth Glide text, I'd be willing to allow charging, even if it looks like technically not RAW by what others are saying.

However, the charge example you gave in the OP would not be possible by the rules of charging. When charging, you must move directly towards the enemy, so a downward tilt to end up underneath an enemy would not be a valid charge.

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.)
tos_shai_hulud
04-06-08, 04:21 PM That line of text about charging is open to interpretation. Taken in context with the rest of the rules, it leads to the question is that the closest square along the chosen line? For instance, in 2d combat with A = attacker and D = defender (x = empty square), which square is the closest?

Axxx
xxxD

It could be either the x directly in front of the D or the x two spaces in front of the A. Either would appear to be a valid charge to me, although by the strictest interpretation, it would be the square two spaces in front of the A.

So now, if you have a similar situation, only 3d combat,

Axx1D
xxx23

From A --> 1 is technically the same distance (same number of squares) as A --> 2. A could not attack from 3, because an attack was available at 2, but only the strictest interpretation of the rules would say that A could not attack from 2.

Regardless, here is what I found out from WotC customer support:

Questions about Xorn:
1) Can a Xorn attack a creature on the ground while the Xorn itself is burrowing?
2) Ordinarily, burrowing creatures cannot charge or run. But, the Xorn entry says that they can "glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water." A fish can charge or run through water. Does this entry give the xorn the ability to charge or run through earth?
3) If a subterranean Xorn feels an enemy through Tremorsense, does his defendee have any concealment versus an attack if, say, the xorn emerges directly beneath them?
4) In the previous example, would this be treated as a bull rush attempt, or could a normal natural attack be used instead?

Good questions.
1. Yes, it could. It would have concealment from its target.

2. Yes, it does.

3. The target would not have concealment. Tremorsense allows the Xorn to pinpoint its target. The Xorn can also any small minerals and precious metals on a target within 20 feet.

4. An attack is not a Bull Rush unless specifically intended to be so using the Bull Rush action.
wrecan
04-06-08, 04:56 PM Well, although we are generally skeptical of responses from CS, this one seems pretty on-target. It's probably the closest thing to an answer we are likely to see.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 04-04-08, 11:34 PM	It is a Xorn's turn, and he decides to charge his enemy. The line of the charge takes a slight downward tilt such that he is "swimming" through the stone floor, but can reach his enemy from underneath. Now, his attack is a bite attack. Will the enemy have total concealment against the Xorn? Or can the xorn keep enough of himself above the surface to see the location of his enemy? What about attacks of opportunity? Does cover apply from the stone floor?
wrecan 04-05-08, 08:46 AM	Xorns have tremorsense. So as long as the character is touching the ground, the xorn knows precisely where he is. The description of the xorn indicates it cannot attack while in the earth, so it would have to emerge before attacking. Unless the victim is flatfooted, this generally means proviking an attack of opportunity.
tos_shai_hulud 04-05-08, 06:43 PM	Xorns have tremorsense. So as long as the character is touching the ground, the xorn knows precisely where he is. The description of the xorn indicates it cannot attack while in the earth, so it would have to emerge before attacking. Unless the victim is flatfooted, this generally means proviking an attack of opportunity. I am reading the description of the Xorn, and I'm not seeing the reference indicating their inability to attack while in the earth. The closest that I have seen is their tactic: A xorn’s favorite mode of attack is to wait just beneath a stone surface until a foe comes within reach, then emerge suddenly. Groups of xorns often send one of their number to the surface to negotiate for food while the remainder position themselves for a surprise attack. But that just describes their proclivity to emerging. The entry itself says nothing about their inability to attack while submerged. Is there another source indicating that this is so? Edit: The one caveat that I missed is that burrowing creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. I am not sure if the Xorn description that: A xorn can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. allows them to charge or not, though. A fish can charge through water, so it may be that Xorn can charge through earth.
wrecan 04-05-08, 06:49 PM	No, that's why I said it was an indication, not a dictate. Xorn are not stupid though. If they could attack while gliding, one would think they would attack while gliding.
tos_shai_hulud 04-05-08, 06:59 PM	True. Of course, the nature of their emergence is not explicitly explained. Emerging directly beneath a foe would be a bull rush attempt that the defender may not be capable of taking an attack of opportunity against. The rules for this seem non-existent to me. Further, if the xorn has its mouth open as it emerges, it may be able to bite and bull rush at the same time. Since no dirt or stone is being displaced, the unsuspecting victim likely would not know that anything was amiss until he was within the xorn's powerful jaws. Again, the rules surrounding the xorn are sadly lacking.
tos_shai_hulud 04-05-08, 07:04 PM	Specifically, the issue that I am running into, a cleric of the Earth domain went out of his way to track down a xorn that he could command. So, this 6th level cleric has a pair of minor xorn at his disposal. We are looking into attack options for those xorn.
wrecan 04-05-08, 10:35 PM	It's a good question. I don't think it's explicitly covered by the rules.
Someone 04-06-08, 01:24 AM	Just to throw another wrench in the works, under the description of the burrow movement mode, it says the creature cannot run or charge while burrowing. Also, tremorsense doesn't say anything about negating the miss chances for not being able to actually see the target. Anyway, I think one way to handle this is to treat it as a 3-dimensional combat, with the half-buried xorn attacking from under the target.
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-08, 05:59 AM	Just to throw another wrench in the works, under the description of the burrow movement mode, it says the creature cannot run or charge while burrowing. Also, tremorsense doesn't say anything about negating the miss chances for not being able to actually see the target. Anyway, I think one way to handle this is to treat it as a 3-dimensional combat, with the half-buried xorn attacking from under the target. Yes, the issue with no charge or run while burrowing was mentioned, however, the xorn entry says that they travel through earth and stone "as a fish through water". Since fish can charge and run through water, it seems that the xorn special ability overrides this part of burrow, although the figurative language may be interpreted in many ways.
wrecan 04-06-08, 08:17 AM	The "fish through water" message seems more a descriptive way to describe why it leaves no tunnel. Generally, rules trump description. That said, although a xorn cannot run or charge while burrowing, it doesn't say it cann't attack from the earth. But here's another way to look at it. Burrowing says: "Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing)" A xorn is not incorporeal. So I would rule that when burrowing through rock and earth, it still occupies the space, momentarily displacing the earth that had been their before it entered the square, and when it leaves, the person above does not fall because the earth is instantaneously replaced with no tunnel left behind. So when it is under a person and attacking it, it is both visible and attackable. Now, a xorn with spring attack would be a devastating opponent.
Lilinthra 04-06-08, 11:23 AM	The Xorn's normal movement speed and burrow speed are identical. Between that and the Earth Glide text, I'd be willing to allow charging, even if it looks like technically not RAW by what others are saying. However, the charge example you gave in the OP would not be possible by the rules of charging. When charging, you must move directly towards the enemy, so a downward tilt to end up underneath an enemy would not be a valid charge. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.)
tos_shai_hulud 04-06-08, 04:21 PM	That line of text about charging is open to interpretation. Taken in context with the rest of the rules, it leads to the question is that the closest square along the chosen line? For instance, in 2d combat with A = attacker and D = defender (x = empty square), which square is the closest? Axxx xxxD It could be either the x directly in front of the D or the x two spaces in front of the A. Either would appear to be a valid charge to me, although by the strictest interpretation, it would be the square two spaces in front of the A. So now, if you have a similar situation, only 3d combat, Axx1D xxx23 From A --> 1 is technically the same distance (same number of squares) as A --> 2. A could not attack from 3, because an attack was available at 2, but only the strictest interpretation of the rules would say that A could not attack from 2. Regardless, here is what I found out from WotC customer support: Questions about Xorn: 1) Can a Xorn attack a creature on the ground while the Xorn itself is burrowing? 2) Ordinarily, burrowing creatures cannot charge or run. But, the Xorn entry says that they can "glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water." A fish can charge or run through water. Does this entry give the xorn the ability to charge or run through earth? 3) If a subterranean Xorn feels an enemy through Tremorsense, does his defendee have any concealment versus an attack if, say, the xorn emerges directly beneath them? 4) In the previous example, would this be treated as a bull rush attempt, or could a normal natural attack be used instead? Good questions. 1. Yes, it could. It would have concealment from its target. 2. Yes, it does. 3. The target would not have concealment. Tremorsense allows the Xorn to pinpoint its target. The Xorn can also any small minerals and precious metals on a target within 20 feet. 4. An attack is not a Bull Rush unless specifically intended to be so using the Bull Rush action.
wrecan 04-06-08, 04:56 PM	Well, although we are generally skeptical of responses from CS, this one seems pretty on-target. It's probably the closest thing to an answer we are likely to see.