By the DMG what is the % of LVL NPCs in a population? [Archive] - Wizards Community

By the DMG what is the % of LVL NPCs in a population? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElyasRavenwood
12-22-07, 08:22 PM I have a question. Based on the estimates in the DMG what would the distribution of Non-player characters given a 20 level spread? Now I need to find a reasonable population figure. Lets see if I can find what the estimated population of Europe was around the year 1,000. I’ll take that number and use it as an estimate of the population for a “ fantasy Europe”.
I have looked up an article on world population estimates in Wikipedia. The article estimates at 1750 the population of the world was 791,000 (estimation in thousands according to table) with 163,000 in Europe. On the table there is an estimate for the world population n the year 1,000 which 310,000, however there is no estimation for the population of Europe at that date.
Population growth follows a curve on a graph right? Is it Exponential growth? On the table they mention a Log. I am assuming a Log is a mathematical function and not a tree trunk, which has been felled and limbed, nor a suspiciously buoyant substance that I will let your imagination describe and define. I seem to remember that Log is an abbreviation for logarithmic or something like that. Well this is beyond my limited mathematical understanding. What little math I learned I did not learn well, nor have I remembered it.
I am going to proceed under the assumption (I know incorrect assumption) that population follows an exponential curve. This way I get to hit the square root key. Lets see If I take the population estimate of Europe which was at 163,000,000 at 1750 according to this table on Wikipedia (I looked up medieval demographics didn’t find anything, then world population) and I take the square root of it. Where is my calculator and where is that funny key that looks like a long division sign? Hmm....... this is interesting my cheapie free calculator I use for figuring out exp, only holds 7 places. I am dealing with a figure that has nine places. Crap I don’t have enough fingers and toes to deal with this. Hmm
Ok If I take 163,000 and take the square root of that I get 403.732 Now If I multiply that by 1,000 I think I get 403,732. Ok. My calculator tells me that there were a little over 400,000 people in Europe in around the year 1,000. Lets make this easy. I am going to assume that there were 500,000 people in Europe around the year 1,000
Like a dog who sniffs here and there for the right place to mark his territory, I have finally arrived at a number: 500,000.
Here is my question: Given a population of 500,000, according to the recommendations in the DMG, what would the distribution NPCs be by Class and Level?
How many 20th level, 15th level, 10th level, and 5th level NPCs would there be? How would they be distributed amongst the Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard classes?
This is a calculation beyond my mathematical skills. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Marcus Majarra
12-22-07, 11:42 PM The problem here is that the DMG guidelines are built for communities, not for continental populations. It's impossible to determine the class level distribution for the continent, as it depends on the size of the communities that constitutes it. For example, if the entire 500,000 people population is divided into 25,000 communities of 20 people, you won't have the same level distribution as if it were divided into 20 metropoli of 25,000 people.
ElyasRavenwood
12-23-07, 12:36 AM Thank you Marcus. I see your point. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to simply read the section of the DMG again and see if anything comes to mind. Thanks for answering my overland movement question as well.
Heros_Backpack
12-23-07, 08:01 AM I'm not much good at maths either, but digging through my world notes, I seem to have worked out this:

As a rough class break down, you would have:

2% PC classes (about 10,000 people)
88% Commoners (about 440,000 people)
5% Warriors (about 25,000 people)
3% Experts (about 15,000 people)
1% adepts (about 5000 people)
1% aristocrats (about 5000 people)

Almost all of these would be 5th level or lower.

Is this any help?
Sinis
12-23-07, 02:24 PM I'm not much good at maths either, but digging through my world notes, I seem to have worked out this:

As a rough class break down, you would have:

2% PC classes (about 10,000 people)
88% Commoners (about 440,000 people)
5% Warriors (about 25,000 people)
3% Experts (about 15,000 people)
1% adepts (about 5000 people)
1% aristocrats (about 5000 people)

Almost all of these would be 5th level or lower.

Is this any help?

This kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it? :)
ElyasRavenwood
12-30-07, 12:01 PM Thank you Heros Horseback. This does put things into perspective. I assume that your percentages would be out of a total population of 500,000 people? My math may be wrong.
Thank you
Man in the Funny Hat
12-30-07, 01:40 PM Demographics are whatever you want them to be. The section in the DMG on city demographics begins with a statement saying that it is a system presented for those times when a DM simply cannot or will not, for whatever reasons, determine the information on his own. It's also a random system. It isn't built with the idea that it should be applied as a comprehensive model of demographics at all, much less to be applied across an entire campaign. Whenever people try to use it as such that becomes quite evident.
Heros_Backpack
12-30-07, 05:25 PM Thank you Heros Horseback. This does put things into perspective. I assume that your percentages would be out of a total population of 500,000 people? My math may be wrong.
Thank you

The base percentages (below in purple) are the basic proportions I aim for when I'm building a world. The solid numbers (below in orange) are the same percentages applied to a population of 500,000 people.

Oh, and by the way, it's Heros Backpack not Horseback. :D

I'm not much good at maths either, but digging through my world notes, I seem to have worked out this:

As a rough class break down, you would have:

2% PC classes (about 10,000 people)
88% Commoners (about 440,000 people)
5% Warriors (about 25,000 people)
3% Experts (about 15,000 people)
1% adepts (about 5000 people)
1% aristocrats (about 5000 people)

Almost all of these would be 5th level or lower.
ElyasRavenwood
12-31-07, 01:52 AM Excuse me Heroes Backpack. I wonder where I got the idea Heroes Horseback. Ah I see the picture :embarrass
again thank you.
Another_Poet
12-31-07, 10:12 AM I would say you can still use the DMG guidelines--just estimate how "urbanised" the continent is. In the year 1000 it was pretty rural, but with a fair number of substantial cities and large towns.

Just use the size of the "average" community, apply the DMG guidelines, and call it good enough.

ap

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 12-22-07, 08:22 PM	I have a question. Based on the estimates in the DMG what would the distribution of Non-player characters given a 20 level spread? Now I need to find a reasonable population figure. Lets see if I can find what the estimated population of Europe was around the year 1,000. I’ll take that number and use it as an estimate of the population for a “ fantasy Europe”. I have looked up an article on world population estimates in Wikipedia. The article estimates at 1750 the population of the world was 791,000 (estimation in thousands according to table) with 163,000 in Europe. On the table there is an estimate for the world population n the year 1,000 which 310,000, however there is no estimation for the population of Europe at that date. Population growth follows a curve on a graph right? Is it Exponential growth? On the table they mention a Log. I am assuming a Log is a mathematical function and not a tree trunk, which has been felled and limbed, nor a suspiciously buoyant substance that I will let your imagination describe and define. I seem to remember that Log is an abbreviation for logarithmic or something like that. Well this is beyond my limited mathematical understanding. What little math I learned I did not learn well, nor have I remembered it. I am going to proceed under the assumption (I know incorrect assumption) that population follows an exponential curve. This way I get to hit the square root key. Lets see If I take the population estimate of Europe which was at 163,000,000 at 1750 according to this table on Wikipedia (I looked up medieval demographics didn’t find anything, then world population) and I take the square root of it. Where is my calculator and where is that funny key that looks like a long division sign? Hmm....... this is interesting my cheapie free calculator I use for figuring out exp, only holds 7 places. I am dealing with a figure that has nine places. Crap I don’t have enough fingers and toes to deal with this. Hmm Ok If I take 163,000 and take the square root of that I get 403.732 Now If I multiply that by 1,000 I think I get 403,732. Ok. My calculator tells me that there were a little over 400,000 people in Europe in around the year 1,000. Lets make this easy. I am going to assume that there were 500,000 people in Europe around the year 1,000 Like a dog who sniffs here and there for the right place to mark his territory, I have finally arrived at a number: 500,000. Here is my question: Given a population of 500,000, according to the recommendations in the DMG, what would the distribution NPCs be by Class and Level? How many 20th level, 15th level, 10th level, and 5th level NPCs would there be? How would they be distributed amongst the Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard classes? This is a calculation beyond my mathematical skills. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Marcus Majarra 12-22-07, 11:42 PM	The problem here is that the DMG guidelines are built for communities, not for continental populations. It's impossible to determine the class level distribution for the continent, as it depends on the size of the communities that constitutes it. For example, if the entire 500,000 people population is divided into 25,000 communities of 20 people, you won't have the same level distribution as if it were divided into 20 metropoli of 25,000 people.
ElyasRavenwood 12-23-07, 12:36 AM	Thank you Marcus. I see your point. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to simply read the section of the DMG again and see if anything comes to mind. Thanks for answering my overland movement question as well.
Heros_Backpack 12-23-07, 08:01 AM	I'm not much good at maths either, but digging through my world notes, I seem to have worked out this: As a rough class break down, you would have: 2% PC classes (about 10,000 people) 88% Commoners (about 440,000 people) 5% Warriors (about 25,000 people) 3% Experts (about 15,000 people) 1% adepts (about 5000 people) 1% aristocrats (about 5000 people) Almost all of these would be 5th level or lower. Is this any help?
Sinis 12-23-07, 02:24 PM	I'm not much good at maths either, but digging through my world notes, I seem to have worked out this: As a rough class break down, you would have: 2% PC classes (about 10,000 people) 88% Commoners (about 440,000 people) 5% Warriors (about 25,000 people) 3% Experts (about 15,000 people) 1% adepts (about 5000 people) 1% aristocrats (about 5000 people) Almost all of these would be 5th level or lower. Is this any help? This kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it? :)
ElyasRavenwood 12-30-07, 12:01 PM	Thank you Heros Horseback. This does put things into perspective. I assume that your percentages would be out of a total population of 500,000 people? My math may be wrong. Thank you
Man in the Funny Hat 12-30-07, 01:40 PM	Demographics are whatever you want them to be. The section in the DMG on city demographics begins with a statement saying that it is a system presented for those times when a DM simply cannot or will not, for whatever reasons, determine the information on his own. It's also a random system. It isn't built with the idea that it should be applied as a comprehensive model of demographics at all, much less to be applied across an entire campaign. Whenever people try to use it as such that becomes quite evident.
Heros_Backpack 12-30-07, 05:25 PM	Thank you Heros Horseback. This does put things into perspective. I assume that your percentages would be out of a total population of 500,000 people? My math may be wrong. Thank you The base percentages (below in purple) are the basic proportions I aim for when I'm building a world. The solid numbers (below in orange) are the same percentages applied to a population of 500,000 people. Oh, and by the way, it's Heros Backpack not Horseback. :D I'm not much good at maths either, but digging through my world notes, I seem to have worked out this: As a rough class break down, you would have: 2% PC classes (about 10,000 people) 88% Commoners (about 440,000 people) 5% Warriors (about 25,000 people) 3% Experts (about 15,000 people) 1% adepts (about 5000 people) 1% aristocrats (about 5000 people) Almost all of these would be 5th level or lower.
ElyasRavenwood 12-31-07, 01:52 AM	Excuse me Heroes Backpack. I wonder where I got the idea Heroes Horseback. Ah I see the picture :embarrass again thank you.
Another_Poet 12-31-07, 10:12 AM	I would say you can still use the DMG guidelines--just estimate how "urbanised" the continent is. In the year 1000 it was pretty rural, but with a fair number of substantial cities and large towns. Just use the size of the "average" community, apply the DMG guidelines, and call it good enough. ap