Can a ranger select their own race as a favored enemy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a ranger select their own race as a favored enemy? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RainerNader
11-12-07, 03:36 AM Hey guys,

Getting a new D&D game off the ground with a lot of players that never migrated from 3.0 to 3.5, and there's some confusion about the ranger's favored enemy. In the 3.0 Player's Handbook, it said:

Favored Enemy: At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature as a favored enemy. (A ranger can only select his own race as a favored enemy if he is evil.)

However, the sentence about a ranger selecting his own race as a favored enemy is omitted from the 3.5 Player's Handbook.

Does this officially mean that rangers can select their own race as a favored enemy even if they're non-evil? I've been looking for any sort of rule or example that proves this explicitly, but none can be found. Could you guys share your thoughts or point me in the right direction?

Thanks!
Garonak
11-12-07, 04:42 AM As far as I can see, it's allowed.
Sakaki22
11-12-07, 05:55 AM They realized that a Elf Ranger can't have a favored enemy of Drow and make any sense in 3.0, so they corrected it for 3.5.

At least, that's the logic I went through.

(In before "Or that way Drizzt clones can have favored enemies of their family, retaining their CG tendencies")
kuonji
11-12-07, 06:33 AM I figured they lifted the restriction because favored enemy human was so useful.
yrogerg
11-12-07, 06:55 AM Not just Drizz't clones, but normal elves that hated Drow, as well.

For that matter, there are also Angel clones, Blade clones, Vampire Hunter D. Clonse, Dante (from Devil May Cry) clones, and numerous others that became impossible under that rule.

Yes, "I'm a mostly evil race, but I'm one of the good guys, and I fight my evil bretherin" is a bit cliched, but there's a fine line between cliche and archetype, and frankly, if I wanted to play a good-aligned lycanthrope who's devoted himself to protecting innocent villagers from evil lycanthropes, or a Metallic half-dragon who's put himself in the middle of the metallic/chromatic wars, or even a simple bounty hunter living in a racially homogenous area, then this rule was kinda annoying.
Salla
11-12-07, 01:23 PM Even beyond the 'good guy, evil race' bit, it never made sense anyway because favored enemy just means 'I'm good at fighting and tracking this kind of creature', not 'I want all of them to die'. A policeman or detective would likely have Ranger levels with FE on his own race if he patrols his hometown (assuming he's the most populous species).
DMParadox
11-12-07, 03:01 PM I'm with Salla on this. A Favored Enemy is just that... Favored. It means that the Ranger has taken some time to study the creature and gets bonuses because of it (paraphrased from PHB, pg 47). Those bonuses aren't all melee related, so there's no real reason to keep the Evil section from v3.0. Even if the bonuses WERE all melee related, there still isn't any real reason to keep the Evil part from v3.0 in my opinion.
goawayugh
11-12-07, 03:01 PM Yeah, they committed that ridiculous rule in 3.5. It just makes no sense. Favored enemy means that you are really good at tracking/fighting that type. So now the human bounty hunter idea works fine.
KillerGM
11-12-07, 03:45 PM Even beyond the 'good guy, evil race' bit, it never made sense anyway because favored enemy just means 'I'm good at fighting and tracking this kind of creature', not 'I want all of them to die'. A policeman or detective would likely have Ranger levels with FE on his own race if he patrols his hometown (assuming he's the most populous species).

Agreed. This is how I play most of my Rangers, actually - the favored enemy comes from knowing how to deal with X race/creature, not from the burning desire to slaughter them all.
StevenO
11-12-07, 07:42 PM Favored Enemy does NOT equal Hated Enemy. With the 3.5 change any ranger can final get the bonus against the species they are likely most familiar with, their own.
yrogerg
11-12-07, 08:12 PM Even beyond the 'good guy, evil race' bit, it never made sense anyway because favored enemy just means 'I'm good at fighting and tracking this kind of creature', not 'I want all of them to die'. A policeman or detective would likely have Ranger levels with FE on his own race if he patrols his hometown (assuming he's the most populous species).

I did mention that, at the end. Though, you do raise a good point. Unlike 2e's hated enemy, the bonuses to damage are only one component of Favored enemy: you're also better tricking, spotting, tracking, and "reading" that particular race. It's very possible to create a Ranger, who uses only the non-combat advantages given, or to even (ironically enough) reduce it down to some guy who's just not all that accustomed to all those "weird races out there", so he doesn't get those bonuses against them.
Mr_Teapot
11-14-07, 08:14 PM but there's a fine line between cliche and archetype, and frankly, if I wanted to play a good-aligned lycanthrope who's devoted himself to protecting innocent villagers from evil lycanthropes,

All a post I support, except for the fact that you can't actually choose lycanthrope as a favored enemy. The Sage just had a ruling on it a few days ago, saying you basically had to pick the appropriate humanoid race or Giant.

Which is a dumb rule and should be housreuled away quickly, as I think lycanthrope (regardless of base type) should be an allowed Favored Enemy. Maybe allow the shapechange subtype (and possibly other subtypes) as a Favored Enemy?
Neutronium_Dragon
11-15-07, 09:28 AM There is actually one way to get lycanthropes as a favored enemy in official material: One "Foe Hunter" variation in Champions of Valor explicitly did that. In principle, "Foe Hunter" could be used similarly for other subtypes too.
yrogerg
11-15-07, 09:52 PM All a post I support, except for the fact that you can't actually choose lycanthrope as a favored enemy. The Sage just had a ruling on it a few days ago, saying you basically had to pick the appropriate humanoid race or Giant.

Which is a dumb rule and should be housreuled away quickly, as I think lycanthrope (regardless of base type) should be an allowed Favored Enemy. Maybe allow the shapechange subtype (and possibly other subtypes) as a Favored Enemy?

I think it's fairly silly as well, but as a DM, I'd probably rule a middle path, and say that you either needed to take Giant -including Giant lycanthropes-, or Humanoid (shapeshifter), following the FE trend of splitting humanoids and outsiders by subtype.

You get enough favored enemy boosts that having to split them between Humanoid (shapeshifter) and Giant as a dedicated lycanthrope-hunter seems reasonable, whereas having to split them between Human, Elf, Gnoll, Giant, Dwarf, etc. etc. isn't as much.

Also, there'd be no other way to get Changelings from FE otherwise.
DMParadox
11-16-07, 12:37 PM Lycanthropy is an applied template to a type of creature who then has the applied subtype "Shapechanger". Check out the MM... the example Lycanthropes provided are "Medium Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger)" and "Large Giant (Shapechanger)". There is no subtype of "Lycanthrope" so it can't be taken as a Ranger Favored Enemy.

I agree with the Sage here, take the correct BASE type/subtype for Favored Enemy and you'll be set. In these cases, it's "Humanoid (Human)" and "Giant".

When a Lycanthrope changes form, it's as if the Polymorph spell was used with specific conditions stated in the description of the "Alternate Form (SU)" special quality. Even when someone casts Polymorph as the spell, they still retain their base type/subtype. So, when a Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger) turns into a Wolf, Tiger, Bear, Boar, Rat form it's still a Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger) type/subtype... it's just in the FORM of that creature, it doesn't actually turn INTO that creature. Same thing happens when a non-Shapechanger casts the spell on themselves.
Mr_Teapot
11-17-07, 08:02 AM I agree with the Sage here, take the correct BASE type/subtype for Favored Enemy and you'll be set. In these cases, it's "Humanoid (Human)" and "Giant".

This character whose sole character concept is "lycanthrope hunter" would be better at hunting perfectly mundane human beings than they would be at hunting orcish wereboars, or dwarven wererats or a lot of other lycanthropes. Hence the proposed houserule of allowing humanoid (shapechanger) as a Favored Enemy.
DMParadox
11-19-07, 10:16 AM This character whose sole character concept is "lycanthrope hunter" would be better at hunting perfectly mundane human beings than they would be at hunting orcish wereboars, or dwarven wererats or a lot of other lycanthropes. Hence the proposed houserule of allowing humanoid (shapechanger) as a Favored Enemy.
n respect to overall game rules, it doesn't fit. However, if a DM wants to house rule something, that's entirely up to them.
yrogerg
11-19-07, 10:59 PM n respect to overall game rules, it doesn't fit. However, if a DM wants to house rule something, that's entirely up to them.

Meh, I'd say it fits fairly well with overall game rules (specifically the fact that these abilities subdivide Outsiders and Humanoids by subtype, but deal with other types in total, and furthermore, to let any subtype of creatures with multiple subtypes provide these bonuses), but occupies a hole in said rules. However, I never said it was anything other than a houserule, so I don't understand the issue. Any change to the established FE list, or Bane list, or Reincarnation list is a houserule. That doesn't mean it's unreasonable to include them, especially if there's a non-covered race that figures heavily into a character concept or setting.
DMParadox
11-20-07, 10:32 AM That doesn't mean it's unreasonable to include them, especially if there's a non-covered race that figures heavily into a character concept or setting.
Lycanthropes aren't a race. But again, houserule what you want, it's your game. :cool:
Tygriannis
11-20-07, 04:53 PM I would say it's allowable, but only if the player has a valid reason. I can absolutely see it if the character is evil, or at least the opposite general alignment of their race. (Evil high elf or good drow for example) I can also see it if there's something like a civil war going on, or a war between two nations. In that case, the favored enemy isn't always the race, but the nation or faction.
pmurray@bigpond.com
11-20-07, 09:18 PM Does this officially mean that rangers can select their own race as a favored enemy even if they're non-evil?

Sure - like Walker, Texas Ranger :D . A ranger that specialises in hunting fugitives makes perfect sense, especially an urban variant ranger working in the big city. TWF with a hooked net and nonlethal club (police nightstick?). How about a dwarf ranger that tracks down dwarfs that have betrayed the clan?
yrogerg
11-23-07, 05:48 PM Lycanthropes aren't a race. But again, houserule what you want, it's your game. :cool:

Shifters and Changelings both are, however. And both Humanoid (Shapeshifter).
Salla
11-23-07, 05:51 PM Shifters and Changelings both are, however. And both Humanoid (Shapeshifter).

I, personally, give Shifters, Changelings, and Hengeyokai (when applicable) the Human subtype. But that's just a houserule.
Baratus114
11-24-07, 09:38 PM I see nothing wrong with a ranger choosing his own race as a favored enemy, nothing wrong at all. Soldiers kill soldiers and they are not all necessarily evil. Martial artists focus on effectively fighting and neutralizing their human opponents and they are usually the last ones to kill or otherwise act immorally.

Also, I started a thread about lycans as favored enemies, so we can discuss this there and let this poor guy (OP) get his question answered.

Here is a linky (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=957298) to the lycan thread.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RainerNader 11-12-07, 03:36 AM	Hey guys, Getting a new D&D game off the ground with a lot of players that never migrated from 3.0 to 3.5, and there's some confusion about the ranger's favored enemy. In the 3.0 Player's Handbook, it said: Favored Enemy: At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature as a favored enemy. (A ranger can only select his own race as a favored enemy if he is evil.) However, the sentence about a ranger selecting his own race as a favored enemy is omitted from the 3.5 Player's Handbook. Does this officially mean that rangers can select their own race as a favored enemy even if they're non-evil? I've been looking for any sort of rule or example that proves this explicitly, but none can be found. Could you guys share your thoughts or point me in the right direction? Thanks!
Garonak 11-12-07, 04:42 AM	As far as I can see, it's allowed.
Sakaki22 11-12-07, 05:55 AM	They realized that a Elf Ranger can't have a favored enemy of Drow and make any sense in 3.0, so they corrected it for 3.5. At least, that's the logic I went through. (In before "Or that way Drizzt clones can have favored enemies of their family, retaining their CG tendencies")
kuonji 11-12-07, 06:33 AM	I figured they lifted the restriction because favored enemy human was so useful.
yrogerg 11-12-07, 06:55 AM	Not just Drizz't clones, but normal elves that hated Drow, as well. For that matter, there are also Angel clones, Blade clones, Vampire Hunter D. Clonse, Dante (from Devil May Cry) clones, and numerous others that became impossible under that rule. Yes, "I'm a mostly evil race, but I'm one of the good guys, and I fight my evil bretherin" is a bit cliched, but there's a fine line between cliche and archetype, and frankly, if I wanted to play a good-aligned lycanthrope who's devoted himself to protecting innocent villagers from evil lycanthropes, or a Metallic half-dragon who's put himself in the middle of the metallic/chromatic wars, or even a simple bounty hunter living in a racially homogenous area, then this rule was kinda annoying.
Salla 11-12-07, 01:23 PM	Even beyond the 'good guy, evil race' bit, it never made sense anyway because favored enemy just means 'I'm good at fighting and tracking this kind of creature', not 'I want all of them to die'. A policeman or detective would likely have Ranger levels with FE on his own race if he patrols his hometown (assuming he's the most populous species).
DMParadox 11-12-07, 03:01 PM	I'm with Salla on this. A Favored Enemy is just that... Favored. It means that the Ranger has taken some time to study the creature and gets bonuses because of it (paraphrased from PHB, pg 47). Those bonuses aren't all melee related, so there's no real reason to keep the Evil section from v3.0. Even if the bonuses WERE all melee related, there still isn't any real reason to keep the Evil part from v3.0 in my opinion.
goawayugh 11-12-07, 03:01 PM	Yeah, they committed that ridiculous rule in 3.5. It just makes no sense. Favored enemy means that you are really good at tracking/fighting that type. So now the human bounty hunter idea works fine.
KillerGM 11-12-07, 03:45 PM	Even beyond the 'good guy, evil race' bit, it never made sense anyway because favored enemy just means 'I'm good at fighting and tracking this kind of creature', not 'I want all of them to die'. A policeman or detective would likely have Ranger levels with FE on his own race if he patrols his hometown (assuming he's the most populous species). Agreed. This is how I play most of my Rangers, actually - the favored enemy comes from knowing how to deal with X race/creature, not from the burning desire to slaughter them all.
StevenO 11-12-07, 07:42 PM	Favored Enemy does NOT equal Hated Enemy. With the 3.5 change any ranger can final get the bonus against the species they are likely most familiar with, their own.
yrogerg 11-12-07, 08:12 PM	Even beyond the 'good guy, evil race' bit, it never made sense anyway because favored enemy just means 'I'm good at fighting and tracking this kind of creature', not 'I want all of them to die'. A policeman or detective would likely have Ranger levels with FE on his own race if he patrols his hometown (assuming he's the most populous species). I did mention that, at the end. Though, you do raise a good point. Unlike 2e's hated enemy, the bonuses to damage are only one component of Favored enemy: you're also better tricking, spotting, tracking, and "reading" that particular race. It's very possible to create a Ranger, who uses only the non-combat advantages given, or to even (ironically enough) reduce it down to some guy who's just not all that accustomed to all those "weird races out there", so he doesn't get those bonuses against them.
Mr_Teapot 11-14-07, 08:14 PM	but there's a fine line between cliche and archetype, and frankly, if I wanted to play a good-aligned lycanthrope who's devoted himself to protecting innocent villagers from evil lycanthropes, All a post I support, except for the fact that you can't actually choose lycanthrope as a favored enemy. The Sage just had a ruling on it a few days ago, saying you basically had to pick the appropriate humanoid race or Giant. Which is a dumb rule and should be housreuled away quickly, as I think lycanthrope (regardless of base type) should be an allowed Favored Enemy. Maybe allow the shapechange subtype (and possibly other subtypes) as a Favored Enemy?
Neutronium_Dragon 11-15-07, 09:28 AM	There is actually one way to get lycanthropes as a favored enemy in official material: One "Foe Hunter" variation in Champions of Valor explicitly did that. In principle, "Foe Hunter" could be used similarly for other subtypes too.
yrogerg 11-15-07, 09:52 PM	All a post I support, except for the fact that you can't actually choose lycanthrope as a favored enemy. The Sage just had a ruling on it a few days ago, saying you basically had to pick the appropriate humanoid race or Giant. Which is a dumb rule and should be housreuled away quickly, as I think lycanthrope (regardless of base type) should be an allowed Favored Enemy. Maybe allow the shapechange subtype (and possibly other subtypes) as a Favored Enemy? I think it's fairly silly as well, but as a DM, I'd probably rule a middle path, and say that you either needed to take Giant -including Giant lycanthropes-, or Humanoid (shapeshifter), following the FE trend of splitting humanoids and outsiders by subtype. You get enough favored enemy boosts that having to split them between Humanoid (shapeshifter) and Giant as a dedicated lycanthrope-hunter seems reasonable, whereas having to split them between Human, Elf, Gnoll, Giant, Dwarf, etc. etc. isn't as much. Also, there'd be no other way to get Changelings from FE otherwise.
DMParadox 11-16-07, 12:37 PM	Lycanthropy is an applied template to a type of creature who then has the applied subtype "Shapechanger". Check out the MM... the example Lycanthropes provided are "Medium Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger)" and "Large Giant (Shapechanger)". There is no subtype of "Lycanthrope" so it can't be taken as a Ranger Favored Enemy. I agree with the Sage here, take the correct BASE type/subtype for Favored Enemy and you'll be set. In these cases, it's "Humanoid (Human)" and "Giant". When a Lycanthrope changes form, it's as if the Polymorph spell was used with specific conditions stated in the description of the "Alternate Form (SU)" special quality. Even when someone casts Polymorph as the spell, they still retain their base type/subtype. So, when a Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger) turns into a Wolf, Tiger, Bear, Boar, Rat form it's still a Humanoid (Human, Shapechanger) type/subtype... it's just in the FORM of that creature, it doesn't actually turn INTO that creature. Same thing happens when a non-Shapechanger casts the spell on themselves.
Mr_Teapot 11-17-07, 08:02 AM	I agree with the Sage here, take the correct BASE type/subtype for Favored Enemy and you'll be set. In these cases, it's "Humanoid (Human)" and "Giant". This character whose sole character concept is "lycanthrope hunter" would be better at hunting perfectly mundane human beings than they would be at hunting orcish wereboars, or dwarven wererats or a lot of other lycanthropes. Hence the proposed houserule of allowing humanoid (shapechanger) as a Favored Enemy.
DMParadox 11-19-07, 10:16 AM	This character whose sole character concept is "lycanthrope hunter" would be better at hunting perfectly mundane human beings than they would be at hunting orcish wereboars, or dwarven wererats or a lot of other lycanthropes. Hence the proposed houserule of allowing humanoid (shapechanger) as a Favored Enemy. n respect to overall game rules, it doesn't fit. However, if a DM wants to house rule something, that's entirely up to them.
yrogerg 11-19-07, 10:59 PM	n respect to overall game rules, it doesn't fit. However, if a DM wants to house rule something, that's entirely up to them. Meh, I'd say it fits fairly well with overall game rules (specifically the fact that these abilities subdivide Outsiders and Humanoids by subtype, but deal with other types in total, and furthermore, to let any subtype of creatures with multiple subtypes provide these bonuses), but occupies a hole in said rules. However, I never said it was anything other than a houserule, so I don't understand the issue. Any change to the established FE list, or Bane list, or Reincarnation list is a houserule. That doesn't mean it's unreasonable to include them, especially if there's a non-covered race that figures heavily into a character concept or setting.
DMParadox 11-20-07, 10:32 AM	That doesn't mean it's unreasonable to include them, especially if there's a non-covered race that figures heavily into a character concept or setting. Lycanthropes aren't a race. But again, houserule what you want, it's your game. :cool:
Tygriannis 11-20-07, 04:53 PM	I would say it's allowable, but only if the player has a valid reason. I can absolutely see it if the character is evil, or at least the opposite general alignment of their race. (Evil high elf or good drow for example) I can also see it if there's something like a civil war going on, or a war between two nations. In that case, the favored enemy isn't always the race, but the nation or faction.
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-20-07, 09:18 PM	Does this officially mean that rangers can select their own race as a favored enemy even if they're non-evil? Sure - like Walker, Texas Ranger :D . A ranger that specialises in hunting fugitives makes perfect sense, especially an urban variant ranger working in the big city. TWF with a hooked net and nonlethal club (police nightstick?). How about a dwarf ranger that tracks down dwarfs that have betrayed the clan?
yrogerg 11-23-07, 05:48 PM	Lycanthropes aren't a race. But again, houserule what you want, it's your game. :cool: Shifters and Changelings both are, however. And both Humanoid (Shapeshifter).
Salla 11-23-07, 05:51 PM	Shifters and Changelings both are, however. And both Humanoid (Shapeshifter). I, personally, give Shifters, Changelings, and Hengeyokai (when applicable) the Human subtype. But that's just a houserule.
Baratus114 11-24-07, 09:38 PM	I see nothing wrong with a ranger choosing his own race as a favored enemy, nothing wrong at all. Soldiers kill soldiers and they are not all necessarily evil. Martial artists focus on effectively fighting and neutralizing their human opponents and they are usually the last ones to kill or otherwise act immorally. Also, I started a thread about lycans as favored enemies, so we can discuss this there and let this poor guy (OP) get his question answered. Here is a linky (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=957298) to the lycan thread.