Can a zombie use a Monk's belt? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a zombie use a Monk's belt? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElyasRavenwood
02-02-08, 10:54 AM Players come up with the strangest and most ingenious things. I just recently ran into an interesting problem. My group is around 3-4 level. As they were adventuring in a dungeon they came across a large zombie Ogre. I thought that this would give them pause. One Command Undead later, and the wizard had combination body guard/ trap rock. They decided to name their new rotting meat shield Mungo. The monk in the party had a monk’s belt. I had previously randomly rolled it up, and since the player had not gotten a single monk like magic item in 3 levels, I let him have it. Just as we were ending the session, much to my surprise, The monk took off his monks belt, his character’s only magic item, and he put it on the Zombie Ogre. He thought it would improve the combat effectiveness of Mungo the zombie. I told him I would rule on this next weekend.

So what happenes? Does the monk’s belt work on the zombie or not? I am planning to rule that it does not, and the monk’s belt will only work on a living creature. I feel they can have Mungo the zombie to do what they wish with it, but I think the monk’s belt is a little too much. What do you think? Should the belt work on Mungo? Any thoughts or opinions? any help would be appreciated, Thanks.
Pudge_is_cute
02-02-08, 11:11 AM I really have no idea if it will work or not but I would really like to see what are the results when it is done.
Merestil Haye
02-02-08, 11:29 AM If something confers a benefit, then that benefit is gained in all circumstances that the source of the benefit does not explicitly exclude.

The belt confers a benefit. It does not restrict that benefit to a subset of creatures.

How useful the idea is depends on the zombie's Wisdom modifier, which is zero. Thus effectively the party is using this item to give the zombie +1 to armour class, and an unarmed strike dealing 2d6 nonlethal damage; nonlethal because the Monk's Belt says nothing about granting the wearer Improved Unarmed Strike.
Someone
02-03-08, 12:46 AM Somehow, I formed the mental image in my head of a zombie bruce lee...

But yeah, as said the non-monk zombie would get the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th level monk.
Ayzain
02-03-08, 06:42 AM It's a medium sized belt, isn't it? Or is the monk also large... or does it change size? It seems like the zombie wouldn't be able to wear it, as it it's designed as a belt. I don't know if wearing a magical item in a location that it wasn't meant for still confers the bonus.

If that was the case, a belt could replace bracers, necklaces, boots... just about anywhere.
Merestil Haye
02-03-08, 08:00 AM It's a medium sized belt, isn't it? Or is the monk also large... or does it change size? It seems like the zombie wouldn't be able to wear it, as it it's designed as a belt. I don't know if wearing a magical item in a location that it wasn't meant for still confers the bonus.

If that was the case, a belt could replace bracers, necklaces, boots... just about anywhere.Magic items, with the exception of weapons, armour and shields, resize to fit the wearer.
mvincent
02-03-08, 05:55 PM So what happenes?Mung-fu
Sinis
02-03-08, 07:23 PM The letter of the rules (as far as I can tell) state that the belt resizes to fit on the zombie, and it would get +1 AC and be able to do 1d8 with an unarmed slam attack. In other words, it's just not that effective, and they really just ought to keep it.
sorites
02-03-08, 08:48 PM The letter of the rules (as far as I can tell) state that the belt resizes to fit on the zombie, and it would get +1 AC and be able to do 1d8 with an unarmed slam attack. In other words, it's just not that effective, and they really just ought to keep it.

Since this is an ogre zombie, the damage would actually be for that of a large creature (2d6) which is better than his slam attack (1d8), but not as good as his greatclub (2d8).

To the OP, the item definitely works on undead -- heck, liches and vampires use magic items all the time. I agree that the belt is better on the monk than the zombie. But hey, if the party wants to use their resources that way, why stop them?
Andrew
02-04-08, 12:53 AM Also, despite the improved unarmed damage, actual unarmed strikes will also still provoke attacks of opportunity.
Tedronai
02-04-08, 01:38 PM Also, despite the improved unarmed damage, actual unarmed strikes will also still provoke attacks of opportunity.

Though it can be argued that 'the unnarmed damage of a 5th level monk' includes the effects of improved unnarmed strike.
A 5th level monk is capable of dealing lethal damage with their unnarmed strike. In order for the belt to grant the damage of a 5th level monk, it must also grant the ability to deal lethal damage with an unnarmed strike. For a monk, that ability is granted by Improved Unnarmed Strike.
As such, Improved Unnarmed Strike would seem integral to a monk's damage, and would need to be granted by the belt (in whole or in part) for it to do what it says.
weasel0
02-04-08, 03:34 PM It can also be argued that damage is damage. You do the damage of a monk of a 5th lv monk is simply the die type and amount. 5 points of damage is 5 points of damage. It could be non-leathal or leathal. If it is leathal then there are many types of leathal damage. There are 4 non-magical energy types of leathal damage. There are 5 magical energy types of leathal damage. There's the 3 kinds of physical leathal damage. (also alignment based and on and on)

As the discription doesn't indicate a benefit of Imp.UnArmed, it should only improve whatever unarmed strike the creature has without the belt. One could take a -4 and make it leathal.
Sinis
02-04-08, 03:38 PM Since this is an ogre zombie, the damage would actually be for that of a large creature (2d6) which is better than his slam attack (1d8), but not as good as his greatclub (2d8).

To the OP, the item definitely works on undead -- heck, liches and vampires use magic items all the time. I agree that the belt is better on the monk than the zombie. But hey, if the party wants to use their resources that way, why stop them?

Whoops, my bad. Anyway, the gist of my argument remains: Putting the monk's belt on an ogre zombie instead of a monk player is not terribly good.
darokinblade
02-05-08, 09:23 AM ...instead of a monk player is not terribly good.

But totally awesome!!
eamon
02-06-08, 04:57 AM I'd allow it; it's not game-breaking, it's innovative, and might make for some good fun.
ElyasRavenwood
02-07-08, 12:19 AM Thank you gentlemen for your thoughts. It has been an amusing read. So If I understand the general consensus is that the Ogre Zombie, Mungo would know “Mung-fu” after putting the belt on. I suppose I could have him wonder around muttering “I know Mung fu” or something like that. Hmmm possibilities. Possibly could describe Mungo having a resemblance to Neo. Well a small rotting passing resemblance.
In terms of game mechanics the belt would work and bestow on the shambling stinking meat shield a +1 to ac and a 1d8 unarmed strike damage. But the belt would be more effective on the monk. Ok. This will be fun. Thanks.
Andrew
02-07-08, 12:26 AM In terms of game mechanics the belt would work and bestow on the shambling stinking meat shield a +1 to ac and a 1d8 unarmed strike damage. But the belt would be more effective on the monk. Ok. This will be fun. Thanks.
+1 AC and a 2d6 nonlethal unarmed strike that provokes attacks of opportunity, to be picky, due to the lack of the improved unarmed strike feat.
mvincent
02-07-08, 12:28 PM I could have him wonder around muttering “I know Mung fu” Singing "Everybody was Mung fu fighting" might be even cheesier.
weasel0
02-07-08, 02:58 PM Put 'im in a boxing ring and he'll be a dead ringer....
ElyasRavenwood
02-09-08, 11:27 PM Thanks for the thoughts gentlemen. Mungo the oger zombie ment his end this evening, well strictly speaking his second end. He was sent ahead across a room with a pit trap. The pit trap was set off by weight. Mungo fell into the pit trap. There was a pool of acid at the bottom of the pit trap. The sides of the pit trap were lined with a grease spell. Mungo could not climb out. he was too heavy to lit out. The monk was lowered in by rope so he could retreive his monks belt.
Thanks for the help guys. I let the Oger zombie use the monks belt. Unfortunatly he did not last long. Mungo served his purpose as a trap rock.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElyasRavenwood 02-02-08, 10:54 AM	Players come up with the strangest and most ingenious things. I just recently ran into an interesting problem. My group is around 3-4 level. As they were adventuring in a dungeon they came across a large zombie Ogre. I thought that this would give them pause. One Command Undead later, and the wizard had combination body guard/ trap rock. They decided to name their new rotting meat shield Mungo. The monk in the party had a monk’s belt. I had previously randomly rolled it up, and since the player had not gotten a single monk like magic item in 3 levels, I let him have it. Just as we were ending the session, much to my surprise, The monk took off his monks belt, his character’s only magic item, and he put it on the Zombie Ogre. He thought it would improve the combat effectiveness of Mungo the zombie. I told him I would rule on this next weekend. So what happenes? Does the monk’s belt work on the zombie or not? I am planning to rule that it does not, and the monk’s belt will only work on a living creature. I feel they can have Mungo the zombie to do what they wish with it, but I think the monk’s belt is a little too much. What do you think? Should the belt work on Mungo? Any thoughts or opinions? any help would be appreciated, Thanks.
Pudge_is_cute 02-02-08, 11:11 AM	I really have no idea if it will work or not but I would really like to see what are the results when it is done.
Merestil Haye 02-02-08, 11:29 AM	If something confers a benefit, then that benefit is gained in all circumstances that the source of the benefit does not explicitly exclude. The belt confers a benefit. It does not restrict that benefit to a subset of creatures. How useful the idea is depends on the zombie's Wisdom modifier, which is zero. Thus effectively the party is using this item to give the zombie +1 to armour class, and an unarmed strike dealing 2d6 nonlethal damage; nonlethal because the Monk's Belt says nothing about granting the wearer Improved Unarmed Strike.
Someone 02-03-08, 12:46 AM	Somehow, I formed the mental image in my head of a zombie bruce lee... But yeah, as said the non-monk zombie would get the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th level monk.
Ayzain 02-03-08, 06:42 AM	It's a medium sized belt, isn't it? Or is the monk also large... or does it change size? It seems like the zombie wouldn't be able to wear it, as it it's designed as a belt. I don't know if wearing a magical item in a location that it wasn't meant for still confers the bonus. If that was the case, a belt could replace bracers, necklaces, boots... just about anywhere.
Merestil Haye 02-03-08, 08:00 AM	It's a medium sized belt, isn't it? Or is the monk also large... or does it change size? It seems like the zombie wouldn't be able to wear it, as it it's designed as a belt. I don't know if wearing a magical item in a location that it wasn't meant for still confers the bonus. If that was the case, a belt could replace bracers, necklaces, boots... just about anywhere.Magic items, with the exception of weapons, armour and shields, resize to fit the wearer.
mvincent 02-03-08, 05:55 PM	So what happenes?Mung-fu
Sinis 02-03-08, 07:23 PM	The letter of the rules (as far as I can tell) state that the belt resizes to fit on the zombie, and it would get +1 AC and be able to do 1d8 with an unarmed slam attack. In other words, it's just not that effective, and they really just ought to keep it.
sorites 02-03-08, 08:48 PM	The letter of the rules (as far as I can tell) state that the belt resizes to fit on the zombie, and it would get +1 AC and be able to do 1d8 with an unarmed slam attack. In other words, it's just not that effective, and they really just ought to keep it. Since this is an ogre zombie, the damage would actually be for that of a large creature (2d6) which is better than his slam attack (1d8), but not as good as his greatclub (2d8). To the OP, the item definitely works on undead -- heck, liches and vampires use magic items all the time. I agree that the belt is better on the monk than the zombie. But hey, if the party wants to use their resources that way, why stop them?
Andrew 02-04-08, 12:53 AM	Also, despite the improved unarmed damage, actual unarmed strikes will also still provoke attacks of opportunity.
Tedronai 02-04-08, 01:38 PM	Also, despite the improved unarmed damage, actual unarmed strikes will also still provoke attacks of opportunity. Though it can be argued that 'the unnarmed damage of a 5th level monk' includes the effects of improved unnarmed strike. A 5th level monk is capable of dealing lethal damage with their unnarmed strike. In order for the belt to grant the damage of a 5th level monk, it must also grant the ability to deal lethal damage with an unnarmed strike. For a monk, that ability is granted by Improved Unnarmed Strike. As such, Improved Unnarmed Strike would seem integral to a monk's damage, and would need to be granted by the belt (in whole or in part) for it to do what it says.
weasel0 02-04-08, 03:34 PM	It can also be argued that damage is damage. You do the damage of a monk of a 5th lv monk is simply the die type and amount. 5 points of damage is 5 points of damage. It could be non-leathal or leathal. If it is leathal then there are many types of leathal damage. There are 4 non-magical energy types of leathal damage. There are 5 magical energy types of leathal damage. There's the 3 kinds of physical leathal damage. (also alignment based and on and on) As the discription doesn't indicate a benefit of Imp.UnArmed, it should only improve whatever unarmed strike the creature has without the belt. One could take a -4 and make it leathal.
Sinis 02-04-08, 03:38 PM	Since this is an ogre zombie, the damage would actually be for that of a large creature (2d6) which is better than his slam attack (1d8), but not as good as his greatclub (2d8). To the OP, the item definitely works on undead -- heck, liches and vampires use magic items all the time. I agree that the belt is better on the monk than the zombie. But hey, if the party wants to use their resources that way, why stop them? Whoops, my bad. Anyway, the gist of my argument remains: Putting the monk's belt on an ogre zombie instead of a monk player is not terribly good.
darokinblade 02-05-08, 09:23 AM	...instead of a monk player is not terribly good. But totally awesome!!
eamon 02-06-08, 04:57 AM	I'd allow it; it's not game-breaking, it's innovative, and might make for some good fun.
ElyasRavenwood 02-07-08, 12:19 AM	Thank you gentlemen for your thoughts. It has been an amusing read. So If I understand the general consensus is that the Ogre Zombie, Mungo would know “Mung-fu” after putting the belt on. I suppose I could have him wonder around muttering “I know Mung fu” or something like that. Hmmm possibilities. Possibly could describe Mungo having a resemblance to Neo. Well a small rotting passing resemblance. In terms of game mechanics the belt would work and bestow on the shambling stinking meat shield a +1 to ac and a 1d8 unarmed strike damage. But the belt would be more effective on the monk. Ok. This will be fun. Thanks.
Andrew 02-07-08, 12:26 AM	In terms of game mechanics the belt would work and bestow on the shambling stinking meat shield a +1 to ac and a 1d8 unarmed strike damage. But the belt would be more effective on the monk. Ok. This will be fun. Thanks. +1 AC and a 2d6 nonlethal unarmed strike that provokes attacks of opportunity, to be picky, due to the lack of the improved unarmed strike feat.
mvincent 02-07-08, 12:28 PM	I could have him wonder around muttering “I know Mung fu” Singing "Everybody was Mung fu fighting" might be even cheesier.
weasel0 02-07-08, 02:58 PM	Put 'im in a boxing ring and he'll be a dead ringer....
ElyasRavenwood 02-09-08, 11:27 PM	Thanks for the thoughts gentlemen. Mungo the oger zombie ment his end this evening, well strictly speaking his second end. He was sent ahead across a room with a pit trap. The pit trap was set off by weight. Mungo fell into the pit trap. There was a pool of acid at the bottom of the pit trap. The sides of the pit trap were lined with a grease spell. Mungo could not climb out. he was too heavy to lit out. The monk was lowered in by rope so he could retreive his monks belt. Thanks for the help guys. I let the Oger zombie use the monks belt. Unfortunatly he did not last long. Mungo served his purpose as a trap rock.