Can allies see each other while hiding? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can allies see each other while hiding? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arianna Greenleaf
07-20-07, 04:39 AM Two allies stealth off into a forest together looking for enemy archers they know to be somewhere in the nearby trees. They obviously want to remain unseen to these foes during recon, yet also want to use hand gestures to each other as a means of silent communication.

Strangely, despite all our years of gaming, we've never had more than one stealth/recon person in our group at any one time. So this sort of stumped us. Spot in PHB says it used to detect beings that are hiding. Seems like you might need to make a Spot check to even see your ally right next to you. That seemed odd. But the next sentence says you typically Spot vs. beings trying not to be seen. So what if your ally is not trying to be seen by the foes, but is trying to be seen by you?

Unless I missed something, all the examples of Awarness/Surprise/Hide/Spot I read seem to focus solely on awareness between enemies, not awareness from allies. One player argued that if these two stealthy types were one foot apart from one another, moving in unison with their slow sneaky approach, they should see each other no problem. As DM, I've got no problem with that. But what I imaged was a -2 circumstance penalty to their Hide checks to not be noticed by the enemy as they did that. I reasoned it was harder to move stealthfully together than it would be as an individual.

No one agreed, claiming the real world military does it all the time (oh how I dislike real-world logic in D&D). I imagine that a solo stealthy type might slip into a bush or lay prone in a quasi-ditch or some such activity to gain maximum "hide" factor. This same "ideal" hide location when solo might make it hard or impossible for ally to see you or your hand gestures. Thus, you might not slip into that bush or ditch when moving as a duo, perhaps taking the "less than ideal" positions of crouching behind adjacent trees together.

If there is a rule about this, please point me to it, as we try to follow official rules. If not, does the -2 circumstance penalty to see your ally yet not be seen by the enemy seem too harsh? Something else seem more appropriate? Maybe the volume of the combined footfalls of two allies a mere foot apart softly crunching leaves and sticks might warrant an extra Listen check?

Sorry if this is answered elsewhere here, but I could not find it. Perhaps my search-fu is bad. Thank you ahead of time for your thoughts.
Ace_of_Night
07-20-07, 04:44 AM In my opinion, it's already penalty enough that both players need to roll hide and move silently, as there's more chance of a failure if there's two rolls than when there's one.
Despana
07-20-07, 04:55 AM The way we've always interpreted it is this.

You can't hide while being observed, barring special abilities (hide in plain sight).

9 times out of 10 when the party rogue/whatever sneaks off they start near the party, in plain sight of them.

We always just said that as long as the party never lost line of sight with the sneaker they could keep track of his/her location.

Works for us, YDMMV.
Leilond
07-20-07, 05:50 AM The rules work for allies like the rules for opponents
If ANY CREATURE is observing you you cannot hide (uless a special rule let you do it).
If you turn a corner and hide, the allies won't see you if they do not win the Spot vs Hide check
If you have the hide in plain sight special ability, your allies won't see you after you hide
Cantankerous
07-20-07, 06:20 AM It does include your allies. There are even a couple of classes in the Complete series that have the ability to keep track of their allies in such a situation as a class ability.

Isshia
Sildatorak
07-20-07, 09:54 AM We always just said that as long as the party never lost line of sight with the sneaker they could keep track of his/her location.This is correct.
Despana
07-20-07, 01:31 PM This is correct.

Actually, by strict RAW, it isn't. That's why I said it is how we did it. The ruling just lets the group work together better and keeps the DM sane. :P
meabolex
07-20-07, 01:50 PM Telepathic communication is helpful here.
Arianna Greenleaf
07-20-07, 03:07 PM It does include your allies. There are even a couple of classes in the Complete series that have the ability to keep track of their allies in such a situation as a class ability.
Isshia

Would you mind letting me know which classes/books these abilities are in? I think reading them would help my group come to a conclusion. If it is in the Complete Scoundrel, that's the one we don't have (grin).

The rules work for allies like the rules for opponents
If ANY CREATURE is observing you you cannot hide (uless a special rule let you do it).
If you turn a corner and hide, the allies won't see you if they do not win the Spot vs Hide check
If you have the hide in plain sight special ability, your allies won't see you after you hide

This was my thought as DM too. However, the rule seems odd in certain situations. For example, in the forest example in the original post, the party was around 100-ft. was from the enemies when the two stealthing allies started their recon. The rest of the party (non-stealthy types) stayed put 100-ft. away trying their best to hide while still watching their two sneaky allies.

At this point, given the thickness of the forest, I ruled there was no chance of either side seeing each other yet. It was only when the two stealthy types got within 70-ft. of the enemy that all awareness checks were made. At this point, the allies in the back were still watching their sneaky buds (now only 30-ft. from them, yet still enough of LOS to see them through trees), the two sneaky buds were watching each other (1-ft. apart), but it was also the first chance the opposing sides had to see each other.

Despite the fact essentially all the allies could see one another, it seems to me that it should not flat out prevent them from making a Hide check against enemies that had no chance to see them until just now.

So if the rule is, "If people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide," then perhaps I am adding words to end of that... "If people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide from them (those observing you)."
Arrowstorm
07-20-07, 04:50 PM I like your idea to make it a little harder to hide and work in tandem. Your players and there real world examples need to think again about what they are saying. You put a lone sniper in an area you will never find him. But when people start working in unison, you are right. They can't always use the best cover or other factors because they do need to maintain contact. Technically if they want to protest, penalize THEM on their spot and listen checks because their attention is partly focused on each other and not whats ahead.

Arrowstorm
Sildatorak
07-20-07, 05:56 PM Actually, by strict RAW, it isn't. That's why I said it is how we did it. The ruling just lets the group work together better and keeps the DM sane. :PBy a strict RAW hiding doesn't work unless you close your eyes when you do it. I think the only sensible interpretation of the "you cannot hide while being observed" bit is that you cannot hide from an individual while she is observing you.
Salla
07-20-07, 08:52 PM Would you mind letting me know which classes/books these abilities are in? I think reading them would help my group come to a conclusion. If it is in the Complete Scoundrel, that's the one we don't have (grin).

Those classes would be the Nightsong Enforcer and Nightsong Infiltrator, Complete Adventurer.
John Paul Stoddard
07-20-07, 09:37 PM Actually, by strict RAW, it isn't. That's why I said it is how we did it. The ruling just lets the group work together better and keeps the DM sane. :P

From THE SRD

" If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. "

Sure sounds like RAW does state clearly rules governing this type of situation.
Obviously Allies would be observing you.
Arianna Greenleaf
07-20-07, 09:59 PM From THE SRD

" If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. "

Sure sounds like RAW does state clearly rules governing this type of situation.
Obviously Allies would be observing you.

But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation.
Salla
07-20-07, 10:01 PM But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation.

... huh?

Hide isn't all or nothing. There's nothing stopping some people from seeing you and others not being able to.
Sildatorak
07-21-07, 12:04 AM But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation.

The sensible interpretation of the rules says yes, otherwise no one could ever hide going by the rules in the SRD. Considering the range of sensing available to gods with high divine ranks, it is a reasonable assumption that every character in a campaign world is being observed, at least casually, by at least one NPC at all times.
John Paul Stoddard
07-21-07, 10:29 AM Its not that hard to understand.

First off if characters were only 1' (12 inches) apart, how could they even worry about losing each other..or were you meaning 10' apart (120 inches)

The Rules are not that complicated...Once a character that is hiding is spotted either actively (Patrols, Guards on Towers, Sentry...etc.) or passively (passerbyer...half-asleep Sentry) out of the corner of the eye, happen stance, they can not hide from the person that observed them.

Example
Guard Tower A
Guard Tower B
Guard Tower C
Guard Tower D

Rogue...Scout...Ranger...whoever is using hide to sneak up to camp..As they sneak along using Hide (vs...spot checks modified by what ever modifiers you want) and using the terrain for cover. Guard Tower C spots the person, from that point on, the "sneaker" is not considered Hidden to Guard Tower C only.. Guard Towers A, B, and D are still unaware and will need to make spot checks to see the "sneaker".

"QUOTE"
"Sildatorak

"The sensible interpretation of the rules says yes, otherwise no one could ever hide going by the rules in the SRD. Considering the range of sensing available to gods with high divine ranks, it is a reasonable assumption that every character in a campaign world is being observed, at least casually, by at least one NPC at all times.""

True but not everyone is actively or passively seeking out the person moving. A person hiding is only attempting to hide from certain people. And a person attempting to hide from someone in particular can do it in plain sight.

Example
Character B is attempting to Follow Character A in a crowded Market Place. Character B begins to follow Character A..After Awhile a Check is Made by Character A (to Notice by pure chance) that someone is following him...Funny I could have sworn that person has stopped every time I have and shopped in the same stalls) and Character B makes a hide Check ( Dang, Must have spotted Me, they keep looking My way everytime they stop or turn a different dirrection)...Sure there are people around you, your not attempting to hide from them, they have no reason to believe you attempting to hide....Merchant A has no reason to think your up to something, unless you have gave them reason to suspect you....otherwise they won't notice you face to the right every time you stop to keep your face hidden, you happen to step into the Shadows often, You bend over to look closely at alot of stuff, You stop often to look into windows.

Unless Character A is overly paranoid (or trained to be aware) They might not worry about the hunch about being watched...or they could actively begin making Checks Often to see if they are being watched...If they do spot you, they will be able to observe you without making checks....
jaspercrey
07-22-07, 12:42 PM But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation.

Absolutely!

I look at it like this:

Ranger and Rogue are trying to prowl up on a Orc camp in the woods.

Both the forest shadows (concealment) and the tree-trunks (cover) provide the two with the "opportunity" to hide.

But because the two can observe eachother as they move, they can't hide from eachother.

Sure, the ranger may be buried in underbrush and hidden from the Orcs, his rogue buddy can see him because he has been observing him all along.

Note, however, that being buried in underbrush would grant the Ranger concealment - even from his ally.

Now, if at any point the two become separated by either total concealment or total cover - things could change.

If Ranger ducks behind a extremely large tree-trunk or boulder, Rogue would lose sight of him - although he would still know where Ranger is.

Now here's where it gets fun.

Rogue knows that Ranger ducked around the boulder and is hidden due to total cover.

Ranger could attempt to move away from the boulder, using it to keep total cover between himself and Rogue, preventing the Rogue from further observing him by negating the Rogue's line of sight.

If he could move to another area that provides either cover or concealment and I would afford him a new hide opportunity - one which would count against both the Orcs and the Rogue.

Of course should the Rogue advance on same the boulder swiftly, before the Ranger could move, he would maintain visual contact with Ranger.
Malchius
07-22-07, 12:53 PM Using Heroes of Battle there is the cmaouflage netting and a teamwork benefit for infiltration where the people sneakiing can see each other like working as a team.
Sildatorak
07-22-07, 08:49 PM True but not everyone is actively or passively seeking out the person moving. A person hiding is only attempting to hide from certain people. And a person attempting to hide from someone in particular can do it in plain sight.I was just pointing out that a very strict reading of the rules results in a ludicrous conclusion. Interpreting the rules this way produces a conclusion so absurd that something is wrong with the argument. The logic is solid, so it has to be the assumption that the "observed" clause applies universally rather than to just those observing you.
Mock26
07-22-07, 11:22 PM In my game, if two comrades were trying to hide at the same time they would automatically be able to see each otehr. For starters, you cannot hide from someone who is already observing you. And, they are trying to work in unison, and to me this would be a combination of small signals to the other person and the act of actively keeping an eye on where your comrade is moving to or hiding at. If there was a lot going on and if I felt that they might have lost sight of each other, the person trying to spot the other would have a +10 bonus to spot his comrade because he already knows for a fact that he is hiding and, in this situation, knew there the person was hiding. The other person, if visual contact was lost, could attempt to signal his friend, but I would rule a -2 penalty to his hide roll for any "enemies" who may spot him.

The rules work for allies like the rules for opponents
If ANY CREATURE is observing you you cannot hide (uless a special rule let you do it).
If you turn a corner and hide, the allies won't see you if they do not win the Spot vs Hide check
If you have the hide in plain sight special ability, your allies won't see you after you hide I have always taken that to mean that you cannot hide from the person/creature who is actually observing you at that time. Being observed wouldn't somehow physically prevent you from hiding any place. Being observed only means that the person/craeture observing you knows where you are "hiding." You could still hide from anyone who might come into your vicinity at a future time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arianna Greenleaf 07-20-07, 04:39 AM	Two allies stealth off into a forest together looking for enemy archers they know to be somewhere in the nearby trees. They obviously want to remain unseen to these foes during recon, yet also want to use hand gestures to each other as a means of silent communication. Strangely, despite all our years of gaming, we've never had more than one stealth/recon person in our group at any one time. So this sort of stumped us. Spot in PHB says it used to detect beings that are hiding. Seems like you might need to make a Spot check to even see your ally right next to you. That seemed odd. But the next sentence says you typically Spot vs. beings trying not to be seen. So what if your ally is not trying to be seen by the foes, but is trying to be seen by you? Unless I missed something, all the examples of Awarness/Surprise/Hide/Spot I read seem to focus solely on awareness between enemies, not awareness from allies. One player argued that if these two stealthy types were one foot apart from one another, moving in unison with their slow sneaky approach, they should see each other no problem. As DM, I've got no problem with that. But what I imaged was a -2 circumstance penalty to their Hide checks to not be noticed by the enemy as they did that. I reasoned it was harder to move stealthfully together than it would be as an individual. No one agreed, claiming the real world military does it all the time (oh how I dislike real-world logic in D&D). I imagine that a solo stealthy type might slip into a bush or lay prone in a quasi-ditch or some such activity to gain maximum "hide" factor. This same "ideal" hide location when solo might make it hard or impossible for ally to see you or your hand gestures. Thus, you might not slip into that bush or ditch when moving as a duo, perhaps taking the "less than ideal" positions of crouching behind adjacent trees together. If there is a rule about this, please point me to it, as we try to follow official rules. If not, does the -2 circumstance penalty to see your ally yet not be seen by the enemy seem too harsh? Something else seem more appropriate? Maybe the volume of the combined footfalls of two allies a mere foot apart softly crunching leaves and sticks might warrant an extra Listen check? Sorry if this is answered elsewhere here, but I could not find it. Perhaps my search-fu is bad. Thank you ahead of time for your thoughts.
Ace_of_Night 07-20-07, 04:44 AM	In my opinion, it's already penalty enough that both players need to roll hide and move silently, as there's more chance of a failure if there's two rolls than when there's one.
Despana 07-20-07, 04:55 AM	The way we've always interpreted it is this. You can't hide while being observed, barring special abilities (hide in plain sight). 9 times out of 10 when the party rogue/whatever sneaks off they start near the party, in plain sight of them. We always just said that as long as the party never lost line of sight with the sneaker they could keep track of his/her location. Works for us, YDMMV.
Leilond 07-20-07, 05:50 AM	The rules work for allies like the rules for opponents If ANY CREATURE is observing you you cannot hide (uless a special rule let you do it). If you turn a corner and hide, the allies won't see you if they do not win the Spot vs Hide check If you have the hide in plain sight special ability, your allies won't see you after you hide
Cantankerous 07-20-07, 06:20 AM	It does include your allies. There are even a couple of classes in the Complete series that have the ability to keep track of their allies in such a situation as a class ability. Isshia
Sildatorak 07-20-07, 09:54 AM	We always just said that as long as the party never lost line of sight with the sneaker they could keep track of his/her location.This is correct.
Despana 07-20-07, 01:31 PM	This is correct. Actually, by strict RAW, it isn't. That's why I said it is how we did it. The ruling just lets the group work together better and keeps the DM sane. :P
meabolex 07-20-07, 01:50 PM	Telepathic communication is helpful here.
Arianna Greenleaf 07-20-07, 03:07 PM	It does include your allies. There are even a couple of classes in the Complete series that have the ability to keep track of their allies in such a situation as a class ability. Isshia Would you mind letting me know which classes/books these abilities are in? I think reading them would help my group come to a conclusion. If it is in the Complete Scoundrel, that's the one we don't have (grin). The rules work for allies like the rules for opponents If ANY CREATURE is observing you you cannot hide (uless a special rule let you do it). If you turn a corner and hide, the allies won't see you if they do not win the Spot vs Hide check If you have the hide in plain sight special ability, your allies won't see you after you hide This was my thought as DM too. However, the rule seems odd in certain situations. For example, in the forest example in the original post, the party was around 100-ft. was from the enemies when the two stealthing allies started their recon. The rest of the party (non-stealthy types) stayed put 100-ft. away trying their best to hide while still watching their two sneaky allies. At this point, given the thickness of the forest, I ruled there was no chance of either side seeing each other yet. It was only when the two stealthy types got within 70-ft. of the enemy that all awareness checks were made. At this point, the allies in the back were still watching their sneaky buds (now only 30-ft. from them, yet still enough of LOS to see them through trees), the two sneaky buds were watching each other (1-ft. apart), but it was also the first chance the opposing sides had to see each other. Despite the fact essentially all the allies could see one another, it seems to me that it should not flat out prevent them from making a Hide check against enemies that had no chance to see them until just now. So if the rule is, "If people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide," then perhaps I am adding words to end of that... "If people are observing you, even casually, you can't hide from them (those observing you)."
Arrowstorm 07-20-07, 04:50 PM	I like your idea to make it a little harder to hide and work in tandem. Your players and there real world examples need to think again about what they are saying. You put a lone sniper in an area you will never find him. But when people start working in unison, you are right. They can't always use the best cover or other factors because they do need to maintain contact. Technically if they want to protest, penalize THEM on their spot and listen checks because their attention is partly focused on each other and not whats ahead. Arrowstorm
Sildatorak 07-20-07, 05:56 PM	Actually, by strict RAW, it isn't. That's why I said it is how we did it. The ruling just lets the group work together better and keeps the DM sane. :PBy a strict RAW hiding doesn't work unless you close your eyes when you do it. I think the only sensible interpretation of the "you cannot hide while being observed" bit is that you cannot hide from an individual while she is observing you.
Salla 07-20-07, 08:52 PM	Would you mind letting me know which classes/books these abilities are in? I think reading them would help my group come to a conclusion. If it is in the Complete Scoundrel, that's the one we don't have (grin). Those classes would be the Nightsong Enforcer and Nightsong Infiltrator, Complete Adventurer.
John Paul Stoddard 07-20-07, 09:37 PM	Actually, by strict RAW, it isn't. That's why I said it is how we did it. The ruling just lets the group work together better and keeps the DM sane. :P From THE SRD " If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. " Sure sounds like RAW does state clearly rules governing this type of situation. Obviously Allies would be observing you.
Arianna Greenleaf 07-20-07, 09:59 PM	From THE SRD " If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. " Sure sounds like RAW does state clearly rules governing this type of situation. Obviously Allies would be observing you. But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation.
Salla 07-20-07, 10:01 PM	But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation. ... huh? Hide isn't all or nothing. There's nothing stopping some people from seeing you and others not being able to.
Sildatorak 07-21-07, 12:04 AM	But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation. The sensible interpretation of the rules says yes, otherwise no one could ever hide going by the rules in the SRD. Considering the range of sensing available to gods with high divine ranks, it is a reasonable assumption that every character in a campaign world is being observed, at least casually, by at least one NPC at all times.
John Paul Stoddard 07-21-07, 10:29 AM	Its not that hard to understand. First off if characters were only 1' (12 inches) apart, how could they even worry about losing each other..or were you meaning 10' apart (120 inches) The Rules are not that complicated...Once a character that is hiding is spotted either actively (Patrols, Guards on Towers, Sentry...etc.) or passively (passerbyer...half-asleep Sentry) out of the corner of the eye, happen stance, they can not hide from the person that observed them. Example Guard Tower A Guard Tower B Guard Tower C Guard Tower D Rogue...Scout...Ranger...whoever is using hide to sneak up to camp..As they sneak along using Hide (vs...spot checks modified by what ever modifiers you want) and using the terrain for cover. Guard Tower C spots the person, from that point on, the "sneaker" is not considered Hidden to Guard Tower C only.. Guard Towers A, B, and D are still unaware and will need to make spot checks to see the "sneaker". "QUOTE" "Sildatorak "The sensible interpretation of the rules says yes, otherwise no one could ever hide going by the rules in the SRD. Considering the range of sensing available to gods with high divine ranks, it is a reasonable assumption that every character in a campaign world is being observed, at least casually, by at least one NPC at all times."" True but not everyone is actively or passively seeking out the person moving. A person hiding is only attempting to hide from certain people. And a person attempting to hide from someone in particular can do it in plain sight. Example Character B is attempting to Follow Character A in a crowded Market Place. Character B begins to follow Character A..After Awhile a Check is Made by Character A (to Notice by pure chance) that someone is following him...Funny I could have sworn that person has stopped every time I have and shopped in the same stalls) and Character B makes a hide Check ( Dang, Must have spotted Me, they keep looking My way everytime they stop or turn a different dirrection)...Sure there are people around you, your not attempting to hide from them, they have no reason to believe you attempting to hide....Merchant A has no reason to think your up to something, unless you have gave them reason to suspect you....otherwise they won't notice you face to the right every time you stop to keep your face hidden, you happen to step into the Shadows often, You bend over to look closely at alot of stuff, You stop often to look into windows. Unless Character A is overly paranoid (or trained to be aware) They might not worry about the hunch about being watched...or they could actively begin making Checks Often to see if they are being watched...If they do spot you, they will be able to observe you without making checks....
jaspercrey 07-22-07, 12:42 PM	But the question I have is if you can hide from OTHER people that are NOT observing you even if you cannot hide from those that are observing you? See my post above (the followup one, not the original post) for details on the situation. Absolutely! I look at it like this: Ranger and Rogue are trying to prowl up on a Orc camp in the woods. Both the forest shadows (concealment) and the tree-trunks (cover) provide the two with the "opportunity" to hide. But because the two can observe eachother as they move, they can't hide from eachother. Sure, the ranger may be buried in underbrush and hidden from the Orcs, his rogue buddy can see him because he has been observing him all along. Note, however, that being buried in underbrush would grant the Ranger concealment - even from his ally. Now, if at any point the two become separated by either total concealment or total cover - things could change. If Ranger ducks behind a extremely large tree-trunk or boulder, Rogue would lose sight of him - although he would still know where Ranger is. Now here's where it gets fun. Rogue knows that Ranger ducked around the boulder and is hidden due to total cover. Ranger could attempt to move away from the boulder, using it to keep total cover between himself and Rogue, preventing the Rogue from further observing him by negating the Rogue's line of sight. If he could move to another area that provides either cover or concealment and I would afford him a new hide opportunity - one which would count against both the Orcs and the Rogue. Of course should the Rogue advance on same the boulder swiftly, before the Ranger could move, he would maintain visual contact with Ranger.
Malchius 07-22-07, 12:53 PM	Using Heroes of Battle there is the cmaouflage netting and a teamwork benefit for infiltration where the people sneakiing can see each other like working as a team.
Sildatorak 07-22-07, 08:49 PM	True but not everyone is actively or passively seeking out the person moving. A person hiding is only attempting to hide from certain people. And a person attempting to hide from someone in particular can do it in plain sight.I was just pointing out that a very strict reading of the rules results in a ludicrous conclusion. Interpreting the rules this way produces a conclusion so absurd that something is wrong with the argument. The logic is solid, so it has to be the assumption that the "observed" clause applies universally rather than to just those observing you.
Mock26 07-22-07, 11:22 PM	In my game, if two comrades were trying to hide at the same time they would automatically be able to see each otehr. For starters, you cannot hide from someone who is already observing you. And, they are trying to work in unison, and to me this would be a combination of small signals to the other person and the act of actively keeping an eye on where your comrade is moving to or hiding at. If there was a lot going on and if I felt that they might have lost sight of each other, the person trying to spot the other would have a +10 bonus to spot his comrade because he already knows for a fact that he is hiding and, in this situation, knew there the person was hiding. The other person, if visual contact was lost, could attempt to signal his friend, but I would rule a -2 penalty to his hide roll for any "enemies" who may spot him. The rules work for allies like the rules for opponents If ANY CREATURE is observing you you cannot hide (uless a special rule let you do it). If you turn a corner and hide, the allies won't see you if they do not win the Spot vs Hide check If you have the hide in plain sight special ability, your allies won't see you after you hide I have always taken that to mean that you cannot hide from the person/creature who is actually observing you at that time. Being observed wouldn't somehow physically prevent you from hiding any place. Being observed only means that the person/craeture observing you knows where you are "hiding." You could still hide from anyone who might come into your vicinity at a future time.