can bat familiars actually deliver touch spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

can bat familiars actually deliver touch spells? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rojar
03-30-07, 03:19 PM I'm just looking at 'animal' section of the Monster Manual and noticed that there is just a dash when it comes to the attacks available to a bat. It has the standard BAB/Grapple entry, but no actual attacks are listed... even ones with insanely low damage. So, even though being a familiar raises the creature's BAB from +0 to that of the wizard/sorceror, can the bat ever actually deliver a touch attack?

If so, would it be with the master's BAB + 2 for the Bat's Dex, +4 for being Diminutive? Sorry if this is just something Obvious that I'm missing.

thanks!
olshanski_home
03-30-07, 03:54 PM Melee touch attacks still use STR modifier to hit unless the character has weapon finesse.

Most tiny animals have weapon finesse as a bonus feat. I would not think that it would be an outrageous house rule to give the bat a touch attack for zero damage.

In this case, the melee touch attack would be (+x BAB, +2 size, +y Dex)
Rojar
03-30-07, 04:03 PM Melee touch attacks still use STR modifier to hit unless the character has weapon finesse.

Most tiny animals have weapon finesse as a bonus feat. I would not think that it would be an outrageous house rule to give the bat a touch attack for zero damage.

In this case, the melee touch attack would be (+x BAB, +2 size, +y Dex)

Bats are Diminutive though, which is partially why I wondered...
Fitz10019
03-30-07, 04:17 PM Being diminutive does not mean they have no melee attack. It means they have no reach, or a reach of zero feet, so they have to enter the enemy's square to melee attack. So, unfortunately, they almost always draw an AoO to reach their target. Maybe the Flyby Attack feat resolves this?

Diminutive also gives a bonus to their attack roll (+3 maybe?). The smaller you are, the more everyone else looks like the broad side of a barn.
olshanski_home
03-30-07, 04:25 PM Diminutive, whatever.
The attack modifier is +4 for diminutive creatures.

Just beware that delivering a touch spell does not provoke an AoO, but in order for a diminutive or tiny creature to attack another creature, it must enter the creature's space... and that DOES provoke an AoO regardless of the attack actually being delivered.
Rojar
03-30-07, 04:28 PM Ok, thanks for the quick responses folks! I wasn't used to seeing a blank entry for attacks, so I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something specific to the Bat or to Diminutive creatures in general.
Kazeofwinds
03-30-07, 04:29 PM I think there's a feat to negate the square-entry AOOs for familiars delivering touch spells. (Combat Familiar?)
olshanski_home
03-30-07, 04:44 PM I think there's a feat to negate the square-entry AOOs for familiars delivering touch spells. (Combat Familiar?)That sounds like typical splatbook methodology.

There already is a feat, and it is called "spring attack", but I guess what's the point when WoTC will just issue more books with more feats to override pre-existing ones.
Yadot
03-30-07, 05:54 PM That sounds like typical splatbook methodology.

There already is a feat, and it is called "spring attack", but I guess what's the point when WoTC will just issue more books with more feats to override pre-existing ones.
But a familiar does not gain feats and can't use its masters so how would spring attack help them?
olshanski_home
03-30-07, 06:00 PM Thanks Yabat.

Never mind me. I am talking nonsense.
orionm42
03-30-07, 08:33 PM Being diminutive does not mean they have no melee attack.

To some degree, I think that is what it means. While they can technically bite or scratch or claw, bats, toads and the like are simply too small to do any real damage outside of a swarm. Remember that a successful attack always does at least one HP of damage. I think the fact that such creatures don't have an attack listed indicates they can never do 1HP of damage with their natural weapons because of their size.

As an aside, can anyone find an example of a diminutive or fine creature not part of a swarm that has an attack entry listed?
olshanski_home
03-30-07, 09:16 PM Just core?

Diminutive half dragons
Diminutive vampires
Marcus Majarra
03-30-07, 10:01 PM Heh, I like that idea. "My familiar is a bat. A vampire bat. As in the vampire template."

Too bad animals can't acquire the vampire template.
olshanski_home
03-31-07, 12:19 AM Heh, I like that idea. "My familiar is a bat. A vampire bat. As in the vampire template."

Too bad animals can't acquire the vampire template.

Yeah, note that the template rules for vampire includes diminutive vampires, but there is not a diminutive humanoid or monstrous humanoid in the book!
tos_shai_hulud
04-01-07, 03:32 PM A halfling vampire psychic warrior 7 who augments his Compression power by six power points to reduce himself by two size categories to diminutive.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rojar 03-30-07, 03:19 PM	I'm just looking at 'animal' section of the Monster Manual and noticed that there is just a dash when it comes to the attacks available to a bat. It has the standard BAB/Grapple entry, but no actual attacks are listed... even ones with insanely low damage. So, even though being a familiar raises the creature's BAB from +0 to that of the wizard/sorceror, can the bat ever actually deliver a touch attack? If so, would it be with the master's BAB + 2 for the Bat's Dex, +4 for being Diminutive? Sorry if this is just something Obvious that I'm missing. thanks!
olshanski_home 03-30-07, 03:54 PM	Melee touch attacks still use STR modifier to hit unless the character has weapon finesse. Most tiny animals have weapon finesse as a bonus feat. I would not think that it would be an outrageous house rule to give the bat a touch attack for zero damage. In this case, the melee touch attack would be (+x BAB, +2 size, +y Dex)
Rojar 03-30-07, 04:03 PM	Melee touch attacks still use STR modifier to hit unless the character has weapon finesse. Most tiny animals have weapon finesse as a bonus feat. I would not think that it would be an outrageous house rule to give the bat a touch attack for zero damage. In this case, the melee touch attack would be (+x BAB, +2 size, +y Dex) Bats are Diminutive though, which is partially why I wondered...
Fitz10019 03-30-07, 04:17 PM	Being diminutive does not mean they have no melee attack. It means they have no reach, or a reach of zero feet, so they have to enter the enemy's square to melee attack. So, unfortunately, they almost always draw an AoO to reach their target. Maybe the Flyby Attack feat resolves this? Diminutive also gives a bonus to their attack roll (+3 maybe?). The smaller you are, the more everyone else looks like the broad side of a barn.
olshanski_home 03-30-07, 04:25 PM	Diminutive, whatever. The attack modifier is +4 for diminutive creatures. Just beware that delivering a touch spell does not provoke an AoO, but in order for a diminutive or tiny creature to attack another creature, it must enter the creature's space... and that DOES provoke an AoO regardless of the attack actually being delivered.
Rojar 03-30-07, 04:28 PM	Ok, thanks for the quick responses folks! I wasn't used to seeing a blank entry for attacks, so I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something specific to the Bat or to Diminutive creatures in general.
Kazeofwinds 03-30-07, 04:29 PM	I think there's a feat to negate the square-entry AOOs for familiars delivering touch spells. (Combat Familiar?)
olshanski_home 03-30-07, 04:44 PM	I think there's a feat to negate the square-entry AOOs for familiars delivering touch spells. (Combat Familiar?)That sounds like typical splatbook methodology. There already is a feat, and it is called "spring attack", but I guess what's the point when WoTC will just issue more books with more feats to override pre-existing ones.
Yadot 03-30-07, 05:54 PM	That sounds like typical splatbook methodology. There already is a feat, and it is called "spring attack", but I guess what's the point when WoTC will just issue more books with more feats to override pre-existing ones. But a familiar does not gain feats and can't use its masters so how would spring attack help them?
olshanski_home 03-30-07, 06:00 PM	Thanks Yabat. Never mind me. I am talking nonsense.
orionm42 03-30-07, 08:33 PM	Being diminutive does not mean they have no melee attack. To some degree, I think that is what it means. While they can technically bite or scratch or claw, bats, toads and the like are simply too small to do any real damage outside of a swarm. Remember that a successful attack always does at least one HP of damage. I think the fact that such creatures don't have an attack listed indicates they can never do 1HP of damage with their natural weapons because of their size. As an aside, can anyone find an example of a diminutive or fine creature not part of a swarm that has an attack entry listed?
olshanski_home 03-30-07, 09:16 PM	Just core? Diminutive half dragons Diminutive vampires
Marcus Majarra 03-30-07, 10:01 PM	Heh, I like that idea. "My familiar is a bat. A vampire bat. As in the vampire template." Too bad animals can't acquire the vampire template.
olshanski_home 03-31-07, 12:19 AM	Heh, I like that idea. "My familiar is a bat. A vampire bat. As in the vampire template." Too bad animals can't acquire the vampire template. Yeah, note that the template rules for vampire includes diminutive vampires, but there is not a diminutive humanoid or monstrous humanoid in the book!
tos_shai_hulud 04-01-07, 03:32 PM	A halfling vampire psychic warrior 7 who augments his Compression power by six power points to reduce himself by two size categories to diminutive.