Can u Climb a Monster? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can u Climb a Monster? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Bonez
08-06-07, 02:56 PM I originally posted a thread called sneak attacks on colassal monsters to get this answer and I kept getting answers about different house rules exceptions to hitting a vital area on a very large monster. such as the groin, nerves, and arteries in the lower body. The answer I am really searching for is if a character can climb a monster such as a dragon. My player asked me specifically if there was any way around having to fly or do reduced damage with his sneak attacks. He is a monk assassin and doesnt have a good bow. He doesnt want to lose his flurry of blows using it which would take away his sure chance at multiple sneak attacks in a round. Plus the best way to sneak attack a dragon is to flank him I believe, unless u can overcome his spell resistance then there are other ways which I am going to post in a new thread.
So can u climb a monster that is much larger than u. The problem I am having is with a climb check it is a str check the monk has little and I think it would take more of a dexterity check but maybe that is because the my player the assassin was persuasive...:confused:
olshanski_home
08-06-07, 03:05 PM There are no core rules saying that you can or cannot climb a creature. I am sure the splatbooks have this covered.

I'd think that most creatures would be significantly harder to climb than a tree, since the creatures are probably trying to shake you off. I'd say it is a DC25 climb check to climb a hostile creature. I'd probably also say the creature must be at least 2 sizes larger than you, in order for you to be "climbing" and not just "Grappling".

I'd impose all normal penalties for climbing... IE, you are flatfooted.
I'd say that you must have 2 free hands to "climb" (to move), but once you are in position, you only need 1 hand to hold on while the other hand delivers an attack.

As far as climbing via dexterity instead of strength: The MM allows for many creatures that are size S or smaller to use DEX modifier for climb and jump checks. You can see this for things like small spiders, cats, rats, and similar small and tiny creatures. I don't think there is any core rule that allows most humanoids to make this substitution.

Personally, I also would not bother with reducing sneak attack damage. That makes about as much sense as reducing normal attack damage or critical hit damage... in fact, such large creatures have boosted CON scores and HD to compensate for their extra sturdiness.
orionm42
08-06-07, 03:12 PM I would say climbing an opponent you wish to strike is analogous to grappling.

In this case, the dragon would retain his dexterity bonus against the monk who was grappling him. Also, the monk is not flanking here. As such, I would rule he could do damage as per the grapple rules, but not sneak attack damage.

As olshanski noted, some splat book out there may have better rules. You might also want to check the rules of the game section of this website. I can't access this at work, so I am not sure if there is any additional information there.
soulnova
08-06-07, 03:37 PM Hehehe, this would help me a lot. Half the time I gave my players huge to colossal monsters to fight, and they ALWAYS want to climb them to stabb them from above. (The tiefling has a cape of aracnea *grammar?*, and the sorcerer has fly and invisibility). xD
foxtail
08-06-07, 03:45 PM The Hammer and Piton [Style] feat from Dungeonscape allows you to try and climb an enemy by first driving a metal spike into his body. Messy. :P Though you might house-rule a non-feat (albiet more difficult) method of doing it.
Loren Pechtel
08-06-07, 04:25 PM Barring some sort of assistance I would disallow it with most creatures. Most critters don't come with handholds and you're not going to be able to hang on if it tries to throw you off.
orionm42
08-06-07, 04:34 PM Barring some sort of assistance I would disallow it with most creatures. Most critters don't come with handholds and you're not going to be able to hang on if it tries to throw you off.

...another reason for running it like a grapple. If the monk is medium and the dragon is colossal (as was mentioned in another thread), the monk could never establish a hold to begin with because of the "two size category difference" rule.
olshanski_home
08-06-07, 05:04 PM If you rely on grapples, there is simply no way a far smaller creature can ever climb on a much larger creature.
This might be what you want... that smaller creatures simply cannot climb larger creatures.

On the other hand, I'd say that a good 5% of fantasy art and fiction depicts a hero climbing on the back of a larger creature and delivering a deadly blow... whether this is plunging a sword into the head of a dragon, or Frodo jumping on the back of a troll in Fellowhip of the Rings. If you want to allow such heroics, your best bet is with some sort of static climb check, with the caveat that you cannot climb insubstantial, amorphous, or gaseous creatures.

As a real-life example, I've had both squirrels and spiders climbing on me, and they are very hard to shake off, but I would not ever consider that I was grappled, nor did the fact that I was comparitively larger than them make me any more difficult to climb than a tree or a vine.
weasel0
08-06-07, 05:30 PM Let's not forget the cute and fuzzy kittens that want to attack your hand.... and use your pant leg to get at it.
orionm42
08-06-07, 06:07 PM On the other hand, I'd say that a good 5% of fantasy art and fiction depicts a hero climbing on the back of a larger creature and delivering a deadly blow... whether this is plunging a sword into the head of a dragon...

I love that scene from Dragonslayer...:D

From what I recall, the main character jumps from a rock ledge above an opening to the inner part of the dragon's lair onto the dragon's neck. The character then plunges his sword into the back of the dragon's head. I think that fits reasonably into DnD with a move action and a single melee attack (or a charge perhaps?). In the movie, the dragon then shakes him off and the character falls to the ground. This is as if the dragon is breaking a grapple attempt or throwing off a rider.

Similarly, in the scene from Lord of the Rings, the character (I think it was Pippin) jumps on the back of the troll and I think he wraps something around the troll's neck as he tries to hold on. I think this could be represented in DnD by several possible checks. In that same "turn,” before the troll has a real chance to react, Legolas shoots the troll through the head with an arrow and drops him.

Point is, a smaller character might be able to wind up on a much larger foe by jumping on him from above. He might even be able to stay on for his turn before the dragon, giant, etc. acts. But once the larger creature acts, I assume it would attempt to throw the smaller character off. If he is sufficiently large / strong, I would assume he could do it without a problem if he chose to. IMO, this is what is represented by the “two size category” grappling rule. Also, to my way of thinking, jumping on a character from above is a little different from “climbing” on.

All in all, while it is not perfect, I think the grapple rules are the best bet for representing the attempt to climb on. Other rules would govern leaping onto an opponent from above…although those rules are not well defined in the core set either. :)
tasslehoff220
08-07-07, 02:34 PM I would let someone try oppoised by the grapple of the monster and I would say tha the monster has to be at least 2 size catagories larger (if not three). I would aso likely give a bonus to the grapple if the character had spider climb and I would likely not make the monster flatfooted.
Holy_Beholder
08-07-07, 03:13 PM There is a tactical feat in complete warrior. One of the aspects allows you to pass through the space of a creature you normally can't, another allows you to attack from below(sounds painful), another allows you to climb up. Basically, you get an AC bonus, sneak attack should work, and if they move so do you, allowing full attacks on a moving creature. Complete Warrior is a really nice book for tactical feats, and it has a few weapons, a nice base class, and a lot of cool prestige classes.
eternalwelcome
08-09-07, 12:27 PM Something to consider, does moving into a creatures occupied area provoke AoO? Does movement within threatened (which include occupied most times) provoke? what about denied dex while climbing? i'm not trying to quote rules, just some dusty memories while i'm at work.

I would say it's an option, would set the dc based on creatures skin, then start applying negative chk modifers to pc for things like your trying to avoid it's claws and keep moving, it's moving, etc, then move onto increasing the dc for things like lack of hand holds or such, not like huge modifers but something...yes it's cinematic to climb the huge beast and pulp the back of it's skull in a rapid cloud of blows...but you asked about rules...

am i off base here, or did i miss your question all together?
Eater_Of_Souls
08-10-07, 10:28 AM Taking hold of something on combat allways involves a grapple check so first you would need to win the creatures huge strenght in grapple check.
I would also say that any creature you attempt to climb on has to at least 2 size gategories larger then you.
Tiny and smaller sized creatures with climb speed ability may ignore the grabbling check alltogether, this includes squirrels and the like.
Each round the creature being climbed on may attempt to hoist climbing creature off it's back this is amove equivalent action that provokes an AAO, this attack is treated as grapple.
If creature wins the check climber is thrown from its back and takes appropriate amount of falling damage (falling square as with grenade attacks), tumble rules apply as usual.
If climber wins the check he stays in creatures back and may move or attack as normal.

Note: only those who haven't climbed on creatures back receive AAO against it when it tried to shake off the climber.

You can edit the rules as you see fit but I think the principle should be clear.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Bonez 08-06-07, 02:56 PM	I originally posted a thread called sneak attacks on colassal monsters to get this answer and I kept getting answers about different house rules exceptions to hitting a vital area on a very large monster. such as the groin, nerves, and arteries in the lower body. The answer I am really searching for is if a character can climb a monster such as a dragon. My player asked me specifically if there was any way around having to fly or do reduced damage with his sneak attacks. He is a monk assassin and doesnt have a good bow. He doesnt want to lose his flurry of blows using it which would take away his sure chance at multiple sneak attacks in a round. Plus the best way to sneak attack a dragon is to flank him I believe, unless u can overcome his spell resistance then there are other ways which I am going to post in a new thread. So can u climb a monster that is much larger than u. The problem I am having is with a climb check it is a str check the monk has little and I think it would take more of a dexterity check but maybe that is because the my player the assassin was persuasive...:confused:
olshanski_home 08-06-07, 03:05 PM	There are no core rules saying that you can or cannot climb a creature. I am sure the splatbooks have this covered. I'd think that most creatures would be significantly harder to climb than a tree, since the creatures are probably trying to shake you off. I'd say it is a DC25 climb check to climb a hostile creature. I'd probably also say the creature must be at least 2 sizes larger than you, in order for you to be "climbing" and not just "Grappling". I'd impose all normal penalties for climbing... IE, you are flatfooted. I'd say that you must have 2 free hands to "climb" (to move), but once you are in position, you only need 1 hand to hold on while the other hand delivers an attack. As far as climbing via dexterity instead of strength: The MM allows for many creatures that are size S or smaller to use DEX modifier for climb and jump checks. You can see this for things like small spiders, cats, rats, and similar small and tiny creatures. I don't think there is any core rule that allows most humanoids to make this substitution. Personally, I also would not bother with reducing sneak attack damage. That makes about as much sense as reducing normal attack damage or critical hit damage... in fact, such large creatures have boosted CON scores and HD to compensate for their extra sturdiness.
orionm42 08-06-07, 03:12 PM	I would say climbing an opponent you wish to strike is analogous to grappling. In this case, the dragon would retain his dexterity bonus against the monk who was grappling him. Also, the monk is not flanking here. As such, I would rule he could do damage as per the grapple rules, but not sneak attack damage. As olshanski noted, some splat book out there may have better rules. You might also want to check the rules of the game section of this website. I can't access this at work, so I am not sure if there is any additional information there.
soulnova 08-06-07, 03:37 PM	Hehehe, this would help me a lot. Half the time I gave my players huge to colossal monsters to fight, and they ALWAYS want to climb them to stabb them from above. (The tiefling has a cape of aracnea grammar?, and the sorcerer has fly and invisibility). xD
foxtail 08-06-07, 03:45 PM	The Hammer and Piton [Style] feat from Dungeonscape allows you to try and climb an enemy by first driving a metal spike into his body. Messy. :P Though you might house-rule a non-feat (albiet more difficult) method of doing it.
Loren Pechtel 08-06-07, 04:25 PM	Barring some sort of assistance I would disallow it with most creatures. Most critters don't come with handholds and you're not going to be able to hang on if it tries to throw you off.
orionm42 08-06-07, 04:34 PM	Barring some sort of assistance I would disallow it with most creatures. Most critters don't come with handholds and you're not going to be able to hang on if it tries to throw you off. ...another reason for running it like a grapple. If the monk is medium and the dragon is colossal (as was mentioned in another thread), the monk could never establish a hold to begin with because of the "two size category difference" rule.
olshanski_home 08-06-07, 05:04 PM	If you rely on grapples, there is simply no way a far smaller creature can ever climb on a much larger creature. This might be what you want... that smaller creatures simply cannot climb larger creatures. On the other hand, I'd say that a good 5% of fantasy art and fiction depicts a hero climbing on the back of a larger creature and delivering a deadly blow... whether this is plunging a sword into the head of a dragon, or Frodo jumping on the back of a troll in Fellowhip of the Rings. If you want to allow such heroics, your best bet is with some sort of static climb check, with the caveat that you cannot climb insubstantial, amorphous, or gaseous creatures. As a real-life example, I've had both squirrels and spiders climbing on me, and they are very hard to shake off, but I would not ever consider that I was grappled, nor did the fact that I was comparitively larger than them make me any more difficult to climb than a tree or a vine.
weasel0 08-06-07, 05:30 PM	Let's not forget the cute and fuzzy kittens that want to attack your hand.... and use your pant leg to get at it.
orionm42 08-06-07, 06:07 PM	On the other hand, I'd say that a good 5% of fantasy art and fiction depicts a hero climbing on the back of a larger creature and delivering a deadly blow... whether this is plunging a sword into the head of a dragon... I love that scene from Dragonslayer...:D From what I recall, the main character jumps from a rock ledge above an opening to the inner part of the dragon's lair onto the dragon's neck. The character then plunges his sword into the back of the dragon's head. I think that fits reasonably into DnD with a move action and a single melee attack (or a charge perhaps?). In the movie, the dragon then shakes him off and the character falls to the ground. This is as if the dragon is breaking a grapple attempt or throwing off a rider. Similarly, in the scene from Lord of the Rings, the character (I think it was Pippin) jumps on the back of the troll and I think he wraps something around the troll's neck as he tries to hold on. I think this could be represented in DnD by several possible checks. In that same "turn,” before the troll has a real chance to react, Legolas shoots the troll through the head with an arrow and drops him. Point is, a smaller character might be able to wind up on a much larger foe by jumping on him from above. He might even be able to stay on for his turn before the dragon, giant, etc. acts. But once the larger creature acts, I assume it would attempt to throw the smaller character off. If he is sufficiently large / strong, I would assume he could do it without a problem if he chose to. IMO, this is what is represented by the “two size category” grappling rule. Also, to my way of thinking, jumping on a character from above is a little different from “climbing” on. All in all, while it is not perfect, I think the grapple rules are the best bet for representing the attempt to climb on. Other rules would govern leaping onto an opponent from above…although those rules are not well defined in the core set either. :)
tasslehoff220 08-07-07, 02:34 PM	I would let someone try oppoised by the grapple of the monster and I would say tha the monster has to be at least 2 size catagories larger (if not three). I would aso likely give a bonus to the grapple if the character had spider climb and I would likely not make the monster flatfooted.
Holy_Beholder 08-07-07, 03:13 PM	There is a tactical feat in complete warrior. One of the aspects allows you to pass through the space of a creature you normally can't, another allows you to attack from below(sounds painful), another allows you to climb up. Basically, you get an AC bonus, sneak attack should work, and if they move so do you, allowing full attacks on a moving creature. Complete Warrior is a really nice book for tactical feats, and it has a few weapons, a nice base class, and a lot of cool prestige classes.
eternalwelcome 08-09-07, 12:27 PM	Something to consider, does moving into a creatures occupied area provoke AoO? Does movement within threatened (which include occupied most times) provoke? what about denied dex while climbing? i'm not trying to quote rules, just some dusty memories while i'm at work. I would say it's an option, would set the dc based on creatures skin, then start applying negative chk modifers to pc for things like your trying to avoid it's claws and keep moving, it's moving, etc, then move onto increasing the dc for things like lack of hand holds or such, not like huge modifers but something...yes it's cinematic to climb the huge beast and pulp the back of it's skull in a rapid cloud of blows...but you asked about rules... am i off base here, or did i miss your question all together?
Eater_Of_Souls 08-10-07, 10:28 AM	Taking hold of something on combat allways involves a grapple check so first you would need to win the creatures huge strenght in grapple check. I would also say that any creature you attempt to climb on has to at least 2 size gategories larger then you. Tiny and smaller sized creatures with climb speed ability may ignore the grabbling check alltogether, this includes squirrels and the like. Each round the creature being climbed on may attempt to hoist climbing creature off it's back this is amove equivalent action that provokes an AAO, this attack is treated as grapple. If creature wins the check climber is thrown from its back and takes appropriate amount of falling damage (falling square as with grenade attacks), tumble rules apply as usual. If climber wins the check he stays in creatures back and may move or attack as normal. Note: only those who haven't climbed on creatures back receive AAO against it when it tried to shake off the climber. You can edit the rules as you see fit but I think the principle should be clear.