Post/Author/DateTime	Post
VirgilCaine 08-18-07, 09:26 PM	Since these are melee attacks (not an "attack action" like Bull Rush), can you substitute these for normal attacks? I thought it might imply you can ONLY make normal attacks during a WA.
Anathema 08-18-07, 09:33 PM	As far as I understand it, yes. This would mean you can also sunder, or even grapple (for some unknown reason).
Dazzer 08-18-07, 09:35 PM	Actually, you can. You can Disarm and Trip in place of a normal attack. In fact, if you have improved trip, you can take the free attack (read the wording carefully of both feats...you'll see this works). You can in fact, substitute last attack for a grapple attempt (since it begins with a touch ATTACK). All sorts of neat things there! Have Fun.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-18-07, 09:46 PM	Hmmmm :plotting: One day, I'm going to start a round grappling something small (a gnome for example), and use Whirlwind Attack to establish a pin and then bash all his friends with him as an improvised weapon.
Max Octavious Xavier 08-18-07, 10:29 PM	Yes, disarm, sunder, trip and grapple are all defined as melee attacks (hmmm, how about a druid in octopus form (underwater) using WWA to start grapples with 8 foes. :eek: ) In fact, if you have improved trip, you can take the free attack (read the wording carefully of both feats...you'll see this works).WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise. Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. Special: At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites. A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats. Everything I've ever heard says you can't. Please tell me how you think that you can. If I was to guess, I would say you are reading "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" to mean that the extra attack isn't an extra attack.
Rebel581 08-18-07, 11:12 PM	I think you can. It's not really an extra attack. It's the equivalent of having a +6/+1 BAB and making a full attack. When you use the +6 to trip and succeed, you keep the +6 to attack. Whirlwind attack just gets rid of the +1 and so you have a +6 against all of the people around you. Once you use the +6, you get it back to make an attack.
Sildatorak 08-19-07, 12:13 AM	Please tell me how you think that you can. If I was to guess, I would say you are reading "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" to mean that the extra attack isn't an extra attack.That is the general line of logic going for that ruling. It isn't an additional attack, it is a retroactive removal of your prior attack that still leaves the opponent prone.
Max Octavious Xavier 08-19-07, 03:03 AM	That is the general line of logic going for that ruling. It isn't an additional attack, it is a retroactive removal of your prior attack that still leaves the opponent prone. My interpretation of Improved Trip is that it isn't a "retroactive removal of your prior attack". IMO, it is an example of a poorly worded feat. According to the FAQ; the 2nd attack does not get “next attack only” effects. To me this implies it is an extra and seperate attack. Suppose a character with the Improved Trip feat uses the Bluff skill to successfully feint in combat and uses his next melee attack to trip the duped opponent. It seems clear that the character ignores that opponent’s Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for the touch attack to initiate the trip. Assuming that the trip attempt is successful, Improved Trip provides an additional attack as if the character hadn’t used her attack for the trip attempt. Does this mean that the character continues to ignore the tripped opponent’s Dexterity bonus to Armor Class for the additional attack granted by Improved Trip feat? How do other “next attack only” effects (like the true strike spell) work with the Improved Trip feat? In each case, the initial attack in trip attempt is the “next attack,” not the extra attack that you get from the Improved Trip feat. That is, if you’ve made a successful feint, your foe is denied any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class when you make the initial melee touch attack to start your trip attempt, but not when you attack him after a successful trip. Likewise, if you use the true strike spell, the +20 attack bonus applies to the touch attack, not to the free attack. The Improved Trip feat description says that you get an extra attack after a successful trip attempt “as though you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.” That, however, is just a shorthand way of explaining what part of your normal attack routine you use for the extra attack; it’s not meant to imply that you enter some kind of strange time warp when you make trip attacks. Of course, you can play it anyway you like, but I say an Improved Trip is an extra attack. Sorry for this little thread hijack, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Prince_of_Parkness 08-19-07, 07:53 AM	WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Special: A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. Id say you cant based on that
Sildatorak 08-19-07, 09:17 AM	We were aware of that Prince_of_Parkness, it is just a question of whether the IT attack is "bonus or extra" or not. The FAQ entry makes it pretty clear that it is, looks like it is time for me to read the whole thing again since it has updates that I've missed :embarrass Thanks for bringing that to my attention Max Octavious Xavier.
Nom 08-19-07, 09:32 AM	Improved Trip is different from most abilities that grant "bonus or extra attacks" (haste, Cleave, etc), in that it does not provide a new attack as much as extend the effect of an existing one. The extra attack from haste or flurry is another unrestricted (in terms of targeting) attack. The extra attack from Cleave is somewhat restricted (must be currently in reach) but otherwise just grants a new attack. IT could be seen as granting a "new" attack, but the fact that it must be made against the single target that the trip attempt was made against makes it work like a continuation of the single original attack (ie more similar to a critical threat than to Cleave). Note that the IT rules (PH pg 96) never describes the attack as an "extra" or "bonus" attack (contrast Cleave or haste, both of which explicitly describe it as "extra"). IT may be deliberately caught up in the WWA special rules, it might be accidentally caught up because they didn't think of it, or it might not be caught up at all.
Prince_of_Parkness 08-19-07, 11:26 AM	Its true that the word bonus is never used in IT, but what else can you call something that essentually gives you 2 attacks for the price of 1? I do tend to interprute everything a little too literally, but I cant think of anything that would imply that D&D has its own unique defenition of a bonus.
Eater_Of_Souls 08-19-07, 01:31 PM	The feat says melee attack not melee manouver so tripping, grappling etc. ;)
mvincent 08-20-07, 12:05 PM	In fact, if you have improved trip, you can take the free attackNo. This has been dicussed (at length) before. (edit: ah. I shoulda finished reading the thread to realize that a FAQ quote was already provided)
deduke 08-21-07, 07:22 AM	The main reason that wording is in the whirlwind attakc feat is the abuse caused by great cleave, whirlwind attack and a bag full of rats you drop as a free action. I think you do get the attack with improved trip, for me it reads pretty clearly that you don't get an extra attack but you replace your previous one. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent [b]as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt[b].
Eater_Of_Souls 08-21-07, 08:25 AM	You guys aren't listening melee attack is not a melee manouver, so you can only attack with WWA, no grappling, disarming, tripping what so ever.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-21-07, 08:58 AM	You guys aren't listening melee attack is not a melee manouver, so you can only attack with WWA, no grappling, disarming, tripping what so ever.It's not that we're not listening, it's that you're wrong. :D Disarm As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand. Grapple Checks Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll.Starting a Grapple To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). Sunder You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.Trip You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.Tripping with a Weapon Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Eater_Of_Souls 08-21-07, 12:07 PM	Aw hell, a houserule time again I see. :devil:
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-21-07, 12:18 PM	Why would you bother? Melee classes are already left in the dust by full casters, and Whirlwind Attack is already hard enough to do due to the feat expense. That plus doing the special attacks without provoking a ton of attacks of opportunity is just brutal in opportunity cost for something that isn't nearly as good as the casters get just for leveling up. Why nerf melee further?
VirgilCaine 08-21-07, 09:02 PM	It's not that we're not listening, it's that you're wrong. :D Awesome news. You could try and grapple as many creatures as you have WWA attacks against, but once you succeed in grappling someone, you would move into their square and stop the WWA.