Caster level checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Caster level checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Terrainosaur
09-18-07, 07:50 PM Does anything affect caster level checks? If I have an NPC trying to cast a spell from a scroll, are there any rules that would allow him to improve his check so he can cast the spell?

And while we're at it, what about caster level checks for things like dispel magic?
PenderGrass
09-18-07, 08:01 PM Given enough ranks, a character could conceivably emulate a raised class level to give a better chance of using a high-level scroll...
Use Magic Device
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.

Unless your NPC is multi-class with the practiced caster feat, there are no ways I can think of off-hand to raise a caster level for a dispel magic (unless it is a device - see above).

*EDIT - This may or may not be a valid use of the use magic device skill, I don't see anything to prevent it.

:dragon:
****
Marcus Majarra
09-18-07, 10:55 PM PG, while your suggestion is somewhat valid, it just so happens that the skill check DC for Spell Completion Item use, under Use Magic Device, is 20 + CL, which results in the same DC.
Terrainosaur
09-19-07, 03:21 PM Correct me if I'm wrong.

The DC for using a scroll (if you're of the correct class) is scroll’s caster level + 1. So if you're trying to cast Wall of Iron, which is Sor/Wiz 6, that's a DC 12. If you're level 8, that means roll a D20+8 and hit a 12 ... 4+.

The DC for using a scroll of Wall of Iron with Use Magic Device is 20+11=31. If you had max ranks at level 8, that would be 11. So you'd roll a D20+11 and need to hit a 31 ... a natural 20.
Terrainosaur
09-19-07, 03:24 PM I can't find a practiced caster feat.

What about help from others? They could aid other for +2 to the Use Magic Device. There's no limit to the number that can aid you (IIRC), so in theory a group could get it down to a 1. Skills don't autofail on 1's either.
PenderGrass
09-19-07, 04:58 PM I can't find a practiced caster feat.
Complete Arcane, if I am not mistaken.

Essentially, it gives a multiclass PC up to +4 caster levels for spell calculations, so long as they have up to 4 levels in a non-caster class. In other words, a 7th level wizard/4th level fighter with practiced caster may act as if he has 11 caster levels with regards to his spells known, caster level checks and so on. It doesn't grant any extra spells beyond his 7th level limit - it just grants a bit more power to those he can have.

Marcus Majarra, I never really worked out the math to see where it would be more beneficial to use the use magic device skill to emulate a higher caster level - but, skills are easier to manipulate than just a standard caster level check.

:dragon:
****
Terrainosaur
09-19-07, 05:58 PM Practiced caster is probably a function of a prestige class, as opposed to a feat. Anyway, unfortunately it's not helpful in this case.

What do you think about the aid other idea I mentioned?

Edit: Dang it. I'll answer my own question.

"Use Magic Device
Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill.
You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check.
If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks made to decipher spells on scrolls."

So the best you could hope for in my example is a 12+.

There must be a way to improve caster level checks.
PenderGrass
09-19-07, 06:29 PM You could always toss in a few 1st edition potions of heroism and super-heroism (they both added actual -albeit temporary - levels to your character that drank them).

:dragon:
****
Terrainosaur
09-19-07, 07:33 PM Heroism and Greater Heroism actually would affect the Use Magic Device skill.

There's this feat:
Complete Scoundrel
Magical Fortune [Luck]
Even you are sometimes surprised by how well your spells work.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd, any luck feat.
Benefit: You can expend one luck reroll as a swift action to reroll the damage dealt by a spell you have just cast.
You can expend two luck rerolls as a swift action to reroll a caster level check.
You gain one luck reroll per day.

Except for that, unless someone pulls something out of thin air, I think it'll have to be a house rule.

1. I could allow PCs to spend an Action Point to add a D6 to the attempt to activate a scroll.
2. I could declare that the DC for Use Magic Device is lower if you have the spell on your spell list and the prerequisite stat (probably DC 10 + caster level).
3. I could allow spellcasters to aid other on Use Magic Device checks, as a cabal or group summoning.

etc.
Fireclave
09-19-07, 08:35 PM Practiced caster is probably a function of a prestige class, as opposed to a feat.
Practiced Spellcaster is a feat. It's in the Complete Arcane.

Essentially, it gives a multiclass PC up to +4 caster levels for spell calculations, so long as they have up to 4 levels in a non-caster class. In other words, a 7th level wizard/4th level fighter with practiced caster may act as if he has 11 caster levels with regards to his spells known, caster level checks and so on. It doesn't grant any extra spells beyond his 7th level limit - it just grants a bit more power to those he can have.
Practiced Spellcaster does not increase your spells known, but everything else is pretty much correct. But to clarify: Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by up to four, to the maximum of your HD. So a Sorcerer 4/Fighter 5 with Practiced Spellcaster would have a the spells per day and spells known of a 4th level sorcerer, but would have a caster level of 8.

But back to the original issue.

Does anything affect caster level checks? If I have an NPC trying to cast a spell from a scroll, are there any rules that would allow him to improve his check so he can cast the spell?

And while we're at it, what about caster level checks for things like dispel magic?
Unless you are simply trying to overcome SR (see Assay Spell Resistance, SC), simplest way to increase your caster level check is to actually increase your overall caster level. An Orange Ioun Stone, Robe of the Arch Mage, and Ring of Arcane Might (Complete Arcane) all add to your caster level. Class features, such as the Arch Mage's Spell Power ability, can also increase your caster level. Benefiting from the Harmonic Chorus spell (Spell Compendium) will as boost your caster level.

And since you brought up Dispel Magic, the Elven Spell Lore feat can boost your caster level for the purpose of dispelling.

There are other common methods for increasing your caster level toward specific tasks, but none to my knowledge that would help an NPC activate a scroll.

Now all of the above is expensive if you're just trying to activate a scroll. Investing in Use Magic Device would be much simpler. Various ways to bump up your UMD check:
Cloak of Charisma: +1 to +3 bonus
Circlet of Persuasion: +3
Magical Aptitude feat: +2
Skill Focus feat: +3
5 or more ranks in Spellcraft: +2 related to scrolls
5 or more ranks in Decipher Script: +2 related to scrolls
Heroism: +2 morale bonus
Heroism, Greater: +4 morale bonus
Bard's Inspire Competence: +2 competence bonus
Song of the Heart feat: Increases Inspire Competence bonus by +1
Inspirational Boost spell (SC): Increase Inspire Competence bonus by +1
Shards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#shards): +1 to +10
Guidance Spell: +1 competence bonus

Edit: BTW, why does this NPC need such a big boost in CL for anyway? There might be simpler solutions.
PenderGrass
09-19-07, 09:12 PM Practiced Spellcaster does not increase your spells known
I think you misunderstood me.

"a 7th level wizard/4th level fighter with practiced caster may act as if he has 11 caster levels with regards to his spells known"

As in, it grants up to 4 caster levels to the spells you already know (where applicable).

:dragon:
****
Terrainosaur
09-19-07, 11:25 PM BTW, why does this NPC need such a big boost in CL for anyway? There might be simpler solutions.
The PCs are lvl 9. The NPCs are bandits. The bandits are building a fortress with Wall of Iron spells. They get betrayed, attacked and defeated by a CR9 foe. Since Wall of Iron requires caster level 11, it seems unreasonable that the bandits had a lvl 11 caster and lost the fight. It seems more likely they bought some Wall of Iron scrolls and cast them to start building their fortress, then before it got built were betrayed.

I don't mind he bandits having a lvl 7 caster, if that 5+ roll could be modified down to a 2+.
Fireclave
09-19-07, 11:53 PM The PCs are lvl 9. The NPCs are bandits. The bandits are building a fortress with Wall of Iron spells. They get betrayed, attacked and defeated by a CR9 foe. Since Wall of Iron requires caster level 11, it seems unreasonable that the bandits had a lvl 11 caster and lost the fight. It seems more likely they bought some Wall of Iron scrolls and cast them to start building their fortress, then before it got built were betrayed.

I don't mind he bandits having a lvl 7 caster, if that 5+ roll could be modified down to a 2+.
If the bandits are building an entire fortress with Wall of Iron, I'd assume that they plan on casting this spell many, many times over. It's much more likely that the bandits would be using a staff with the spell. Even if the bandits were to steal that many scrolls of some random wizard guy, it is very unlikely that a wizard would create so many scrolls in the first place. Staves are much less expensive if you need multiple casting of the same spell, especially if you need enough to create a fort.

And fortunately, the UMD check for a staff is a straight DC 20. Any low or moderate leveled rouge or bard can easily make that check easily.
Terrainosaur
09-20-07, 02:26 PM As I read it, a lvl 1 wizard could use a staff with Wall of Iron with no die roll, correct?
NoldorForce
09-20-07, 05:34 PM As I read it, a lvl 1 wizard could use a staff with Wall of Iron with no die roll, correct?Yes, because it's a spell trigger item.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Terrainosaur 09-18-07, 07:50 PM	Does anything affect caster level checks? If I have an NPC trying to cast a spell from a scroll, are there any rules that would allow him to improve his check so he can cast the spell? And while we're at it, what about caster level checks for things like dispel magic?
PenderGrass 09-18-07, 08:01 PM	Given enough ranks, a character could conceivably emulate a raised class level to give a better chance of using a high-level scroll... Use Magic Device Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. Unless your NPC is multi-class with the practiced caster feat, there are no ways I can think of off-hand to raise a caster level for a dispel magic (unless it is a device - see above). EDIT - This may or may not be a valid use of the use magic device skill, I don't see anything to prevent it. :dragon: ***
Marcus Majarra 09-18-07, 10:55 PM	PG, while your suggestion is somewhat valid, it just so happens that the skill check DC for Spell Completion Item use, under Use Magic Device, is 20 + CL, which results in the same DC.
Terrainosaur 09-19-07, 03:21 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong. The DC for using a scroll (if you're of the correct class) is scroll’s caster level + 1. So if you're trying to cast Wall of Iron, which is Sor/Wiz 6, that's a DC 12. If you're level 8, that means roll a D20+8 and hit a 12 ... 4+. The DC for using a scroll of Wall of Iron with Use Magic Device is 20+11=31. If you had max ranks at level 8, that would be 11. So you'd roll a D20+11 and need to hit a 31 ... a natural 20.
Terrainosaur 09-19-07, 03:24 PM	I can't find a practiced caster feat. What about help from others? They could aid other for +2 to the Use Magic Device. There's no limit to the number that can aid you (IIRC), so in theory a group could get it down to a 1. Skills don't autofail on 1's either.
PenderGrass 09-19-07, 04:58 PM	I can't find a practiced caster feat. Complete Arcane, if I am not mistaken. Essentially, it gives a multiclass PC up to +4 caster levels for spell calculations, so long as they have up to 4 levels in a non-caster class. In other words, a 7th level wizard/4th level fighter with practiced caster may act as if he has 11 caster levels with regards to his spells known, caster level checks and so on. It doesn't grant any extra spells beyond his 7th level limit - it just grants a bit more power to those he can have. Marcus Majarra, I never really worked out the math to see where it would be more beneficial to use the use magic device skill to emulate a higher caster level - but, skills are easier to manipulate than just a standard caster level check. :dragon: ****
Terrainosaur 09-19-07, 05:58 PM	Practiced caster is probably a function of a prestige class, as opposed to a feat. Anyway, unfortunately it's not helpful in this case. What do you think about the aid other idea I mentioned? Edit: Dang it. I'll answer my own question. "Use Magic Device Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can’t aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check. If you have the Magical Aptitude feat, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks related to scrolls. If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks made to decipher spells on scrolls." So the best you could hope for in my example is a 12+. There must be a way to improve caster level checks.
PenderGrass 09-19-07, 06:29 PM	You could always toss in a few 1st edition potions of heroism and super-heroism (they both added actual -albeit temporary - levels to your character that drank them). :dragon: ****
Terrainosaur 09-19-07, 07:33 PM	Heroism and Greater Heroism actually would affect the Use Magic Device skill. There's this feat: Complete Scoundrel Magical Fortune [Luck] Even you are sometimes surprised by how well your spells work. Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd, any luck feat. Benefit: You can expend one luck reroll as a swift action to reroll the damage dealt by a spell you have just cast. You can expend two luck rerolls as a swift action to reroll a caster level check. You gain one luck reroll per day. Except for that, unless someone pulls something out of thin air, I think it'll have to be a house rule. 1. I could allow PCs to spend an Action Point to add a D6 to the attempt to activate a scroll. 2. I could declare that the DC for Use Magic Device is lower if you have the spell on your spell list and the prerequisite stat (probably DC 10 + caster level). 3. I could allow spellcasters to aid other on Use Magic Device checks, as a cabal or group summoning. etc.
Fireclave 09-19-07, 08:35 PM	Practiced caster is probably a function of a prestige class, as opposed to a feat. Practiced Spellcaster is a feat. It's in the Complete Arcane. Essentially, it gives a multiclass PC up to +4 caster levels for spell calculations, so long as they have up to 4 levels in a non-caster class. In other words, a 7th level wizard/4th level fighter with practiced caster may act as if he has 11 caster levels with regards to his spells known, caster level checks and so on. It doesn't grant any extra spells beyond his 7th level limit - it just grants a bit more power to those he can have. Practiced Spellcaster does not increase your spells known, but everything else is pretty much correct. But to clarify: Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level by up to four, to the maximum of your HD. So a Sorcerer 4/Fighter 5 with Practiced Spellcaster would have a the spells per day and spells known of a 4th level sorcerer, but would have a caster level of 8. But back to the original issue. Does anything affect caster level checks? If I have an NPC trying to cast a spell from a scroll, are there any rules that would allow him to improve his check so he can cast the spell? And while we're at it, what about caster level checks for things like dispel magic? Unless you are simply trying to overcome SR (see Assay Spell Resistance, SC), simplest way to increase your caster level check is to actually increase your overall caster level. An Orange Ioun Stone, Robe of the Arch Mage, and Ring of Arcane Might (Complete Arcane) all add to your caster level. Class features, such as the Arch Mage's Spell Power ability, can also increase your caster level. Benefiting from the Harmonic Chorus spell (Spell Compendium) will as boost your caster level. And since you brought up Dispel Magic, the Elven Spell Lore feat can boost your caster level for the purpose of dispelling. There are other common methods for increasing your caster level toward specific tasks, but none to my knowledge that would help an NPC activate a scroll. Now all of the above is expensive if you're just trying to activate a scroll. Investing in Use Magic Device would be much simpler. Various ways to bump up your UMD check: Cloak of Charisma: +1 to +3 bonus Circlet of Persuasion: +3 Magical Aptitude feat: +2 Skill Focus feat: +3 5 or more ranks in Spellcraft: +2 related to scrolls 5 or more ranks in Decipher Script: +2 related to scrolls Heroism: +2 morale bonus Heroism, Greater: +4 morale bonus Bard's Inspire Competence: +2 competence bonus Song of the Heart feat: Increases Inspire Competence bonus by +1 Inspirational Boost spell (SC): Increase Inspire Competence bonus by +1 Shards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#shards): +1 to +10 Guidance Spell: +1 competence bonus Edit: BTW, why does this NPC need such a big boost in CL for anyway? There might be simpler solutions.
PenderGrass 09-19-07, 09:12 PM	Practiced Spellcaster does not increase your spells known I think you misunderstood me. "a 7th level wizard/4th level fighter with practiced caster may act as if he has 11 caster levels with regards to his spells known" As in, it grants up to 4 caster levels to the spells you already know (where applicable). :dragon: ****
Terrainosaur 09-19-07, 11:25 PM	BTW, why does this NPC need such a big boost in CL for anyway? There might be simpler solutions. The PCs are lvl 9. The NPCs are bandits. The bandits are building a fortress with Wall of Iron spells. They get betrayed, attacked and defeated by a CR9 foe. Since Wall of Iron requires caster level 11, it seems unreasonable that the bandits had a lvl 11 caster and lost the fight. It seems more likely they bought some Wall of Iron scrolls and cast them to start building their fortress, then before it got built were betrayed. I don't mind he bandits having a lvl 7 caster, if that 5+ roll could be modified down to a 2+.
Fireclave 09-19-07, 11:53 PM	The PCs are lvl 9. The NPCs are bandits. The bandits are building a fortress with Wall of Iron spells. They get betrayed, attacked and defeated by a CR9 foe. Since Wall of Iron requires caster level 11, it seems unreasonable that the bandits had a lvl 11 caster and lost the fight. It seems more likely they bought some Wall of Iron scrolls and cast them to start building their fortress, then before it got built were betrayed. I don't mind he bandits having a lvl 7 caster, if that 5+ roll could be modified down to a 2+. If the bandits are building an entire fortress with Wall of Iron, I'd assume that they plan on casting this spell many, many times over. It's much more likely that the bandits would be using a staff with the spell. Even if the bandits were to steal that many scrolls of some random wizard guy, it is very unlikely that a wizard would create so many scrolls in the first place. Staves are much less expensive if you need multiple casting of the same spell, especially if you need enough to create a fort. And fortunately, the UMD check for a staff is a straight DC 20. Any low or moderate leveled rouge or bard can easily make that check easily.
Terrainosaur 09-20-07, 02:26 PM	As I read it, a lvl 1 wizard could use a staff with Wall of Iron with no die roll, correct?
NoldorForce 09-20-07, 05:34 PM	As I read it, a lvl 1 wizard could use a staff with Wall of Iron with no die roll, correct?Yes, because it's a spell trigger item.