Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amtekoth 05-15-07, 01:04 PM	I posted this in the spells area also. What's the current rule on casting underwater? If you are a non-aquatic race spellcaster who is underwater, can you cast spells? Does water breathing allow it? How about Freedom of Movement? We scoured the DMG, Players Handbook and even Stormwrack last night and couldn't find an unambiguous answer to a very basic question. Most people have been house-ruling it, but has WotC ever had an official answer? Thanks for any help.
mvincent 05-15-07, 02:00 PM	What's the current rule on casting underwater? Only what is given here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat) If you are a non-aquatic race spellcaster who is underwater, can you cast spells?Yes. No limitations are given in the rules for this.
Myers 05-15-07, 03:01 PM	I would still rule that verbal components require you to be able to speak in a loud clear voice. Water breathing does not give anything that allows you to talk clearly while underwater, so I would say no to anything that had verbal components. Silent casting however would work.
olshanski_home 05-15-07, 03:27 PM	I know a large number of aboleth, kraken, aquatic elves, and other spellcasters that are going to be very disappointed. The rules don't prohibit casting underwater. Why would you want to? Do you want to base it on real life? It is usually a bad idea to try to make real-life sense of anything in the D&D world, especially magic, but if you really wanted to, I believe that you'd find that water flowing over vocal cords creates waves in the same manner that air passing over vocal cords creates waves. Water would probably transmit the waves better than air as well. If anything, spellcasting with verbal components would be easier underwater, assuming that there was no threat to your survival.
Amtekoth 05-15-07, 03:32 PM	Only what is given here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#underwaterCombat) Yes. No limitations are given in the rules for this. See, now that just doesn't make a lick of sense. It's like a huge gaping hole in the rules that should be filled, and is currently being filled with house-rules. I don't mean to start a fight. There are plenty of places in the rules that make no sense or contradict each other. But the frequency that this would come up and gaming groups would be faced with the common sense situation ("of course you can't cast a spell with a mouthful of water") being answered with a rules-lawyerism ("the rules don't specifically SAY you can't") seems to be a huge oversight. Ed
Amtekoth 05-15-07, 03:34 PM	I know a large number of aboleth, kraken, aquatic elves, and other spellcasters that are going to be very disappointed. Most of those species actually SPECIFY that they can cast under water in their write-ups, if I recall. Those are AQUATIC species. They can also BREATHE under water, something non-aquatics can't do without magic. Ed
Edana 05-15-07, 03:56 PM	My own ruling regarding this (and that's all it is; the rules themselves are decidedly silent on the whole issue): To cast a spell with a verbal component underwater, you must be able to breathe underwater, whether by spell or by natural means. My reasoning behind this is that, if you're speaking (which is what a verbal component essentially is), you're not holding your breath. If you can't breathe in water, not holding your breath leads straight into drowning. For me, that's what makes the most sense, and I don't really see any reason to restrict players overmuch when they're already in a disavantaged position. (This would, very reasonably, be a house rule. RAW essentially says nothing on it, so it's perfectly within the bounds of the system to simply allow casting underwater regardless of how much real-world sense it makes.)
olshanski_home 05-15-07, 11:39 PM	If the question is: Can you cast spells with verbal components while underwater? The answer is "YES" If the question is: Can you hold your breath while casting a spell with verbal components underwater? The answer is "NO". I see nothing wrong with treating spellcasting as NOT holding breath: IE: you immediately begin making constitution checks to avoid dropping to 0 hp. (as per drowning rules). Whether you are aquatic, or whether you have water breathing, or whether you don't breathe at all (undead), or whether you are an air-breather... I think you can cast spells with verbal components just fine. If you are an air-breather and have no magical aid such as "water breathing", you are not holding your breath and you are at serious risk of drowning... but you can still cast spells.
Edana 05-16-07, 10:57 AM	I think we're both saying basically the same thing ;). I would point out, though, there's no 'saving throw vs drowning'. You get a constitution check to continue holding your breath after a certain length of time based on your constitution score. Once you stop holding your breath (voluntarily or not), you're drowning, and dead 3 rounds later. So you'd better really, really want that spell ;)
Phrennzy 05-16-07, 11:11 AM	So you'd better really, really want that spell ;) And you better make it Water Breathing.
Amtekoth 05-16-07, 11:21 AM	I think we're both saying basically the same thing ;). I would point out, though, there's no 'saving throw vs drowning'. You get a constitution check to continue holding your breath after a certain length of time based on your constitution score. Once you stop holding your breath (voluntarily or not), you're drowning, and dead 3 rounds later. So you'd better really, really want that spell ;) I'm thinking that's a little harsh. Perhaps as soon as you cast a spell underwater without Water Breathing on, you have to start making those Con checks right away.
Phrennzy 05-16-07, 03:22 PM	I'm thinking that's a little harsh. Perhaps as soon as you cast a spell underwater without Water Breathing on, you have to start making those Con checks right away. I agree. I know from swimming that you can, in fact, speak underwater, and other people can (with some difficulty) make out what you are saying. However, this uses up your air quickly, so you need to head for the surface. In D&D terms, casting a single spell with verbal components should leave you with little air, which is where the Con checks come in.
Amtekoth 05-16-07, 05:18 PM	Here's the house rule I'm going to use, along with the description of drowning from the SRD (might be older wording). Casting Spells underwater. If you have Water Breathing or Silent Spell metamagic, no restrictions on casting. If you can't breathe water, you can still cast underwater, but then you have to start making Con checks right away or begin drowning (see below), because you've stopped holding your breath. Drowning Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a Constitution check (DC 10) every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she dies. This ties the hole in the casting under water rules to the wording of the drowning rules. I'm happy. Thanks everyone!
Ace the Dead 05-17-07, 11:14 AM	What happens if your making con checks and you cast a spell? I wouldn't call the sound you can make exhaling air into water clear in any sense, ergo don't count it as being able to fill the verbal components' role.
mvincent 05-17-07, 12:35 PM	I wouldn't call the sound you can make exhaling air into water clear in any sense, ergo don't count it as being able to fill the verbal components' role.That's an opinion rather than a truism. However, the rules address casting underwater (a bit), and they do not denote any limitation here. Until a supplement gives such a limitation, adjudicating such would seem unwarranted (from a rules debate POV).
Edana 05-17-07, 12:59 PM	What happens if your making con checks and you cast a spell? This is actually part of why I would rule it the way I did. What's to stop a caster from casting spells every round they're making con checks? I would also say that the drowning text is pretty clear on the consitution check being for "...Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath." (SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning)) If you're casting a spell, and thus not holding your breath, why should you get a check to continue doing something you're not doing in the first place?
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 12:03 AM	The issue there is that "you're drowning" assumes that you've completely run out of breath - which may not be the case when you're speaking, since you probably have enough air in your lungs to get out a few words and still have some left. SKR addressed this in one of his articles or posts somewhere a long time back; in a nutshell, you're expected to be able to cast spells underwater (at least with the use of Water Breathing or the like) because if you can breathe, you can speak, and that's all that's required (otherwise every spellcaster would have to speak in the exact same specific funny voice to make their spells work if it was somehow dependent on precise sounds), and on a design level there was a strong dislike of "Yay, I'm a useless wizard underwater!" syndrome.
Timori 05-18-07, 02:23 AM	SKR addressed this in one of his articles or posts somewhere a long time back; in a nutshell, you're expected to be able to cast spells underwater (at least with the use of Water Breathing or the like) because if you can breathe, you can speak, and that's all that's required (otherwise every spellcaster would have to speak in the exact same specific funny voice to make their spells work if it was somehow dependent on precise sounds), and on a design level there was a strong dislike of "Yay, I'm a useless wizard underwater!" syndrome. So how come there's a 20% failure chance if the caster has been deafened? I would imagine someone that has just been deafened is going to sound a lot closer to their normal voice than someone trying to speak underwater. Personally I'd rule that Water Breathing is all that is required, otherwise you're looking at a really high chance of spell failure and possible drowning.
Amtekoth 05-18-07, 11:49 AM	Personally I'd rule that Water Breathing is all that is required, otherwise you're looking at a really high chance of spell failure and possible drowning. Yeah, everyone else can do stuff under water WITHOUT making Con checks for a long time. My limitation that they have to start making Con checks right away makes it pretty dangerous for a non-water breathing spell caster to cast under water. But that's their choice, so as not to make them useless. Drowning the next round would kill off your sorcerers so quickly, why would they ever want to go near a body of water? Ed
Millennium 05-18-07, 12:54 PM	The only thing in the rules about this is that the surface of a body of water blocks line of effect. For example, if you're underwater you can't cast a ray that goes out of the water, but you can cast a ray that stays in the water for its full range. Conversely, if you're on dry land, you can't cast a ray into a body of water. By RAW, there are no other limitations. There are some common house rules, like having to have some means of breathing underwater, but these are house rules, nothing more.
Amtekoth 05-19-07, 12:34 AM	By RAW, there are no other limitations. There are some common house rules, like having to have some means of breathing underwater, but these are house rules, nothing more. So I've mentioned what I'm going to be using, in terms of house rules. What would YOU do with a sorcerer that casts a spell underwater without some water-breathing ability? 1) Let him continue "holding his breath" and not start the drowning process (Constitution check (DC 10) every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1) until after Con x 2 rounds? 2) Start making Con checks right after casting the spell or begin drowning, because you've stopped holding your breath. 3) Start the drowning right away? (In the first round, falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, dies.) 4) Add a 20% failure chance as if the caster has been deafened? 5) Ban casting under water because he can't get the spell out clearly? 6) Impose a concentration check? 7) Other?
Millennium 05-19-07, 11:47 AM	2) Start making Con checks right after casting the spell or begin drowning, because you've stopped holding your breath. This is probably the one I'd do. Among other things, it involves an interpretation of RAW rather than actually changing RAW, and that's something I prefer to do when I can. It does bring up a possible loophole -using Silent Spell so that you don't have to speak verbal components underwater- but I wouldn't consider this a problem.
NightBreeze 05-19-07, 06:50 PM	I'm going a little ot, however: Say that we follow the most common answer on the question of the OP. (so "yes, if can breathe under water, you can cast spells, too) Ok...now say I'm a druid wildshaped into a Fire Elemental. May I cast spells while in the lava, without the silent spell feet?
MarkB 05-19-07, 07:45 PM	3) Start the drowning right away? (In the first round, falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, dies.) This one, but starting the round after spellcasting. 6) Impose a concentration check? And probably this one as well, using DC 15 + spell-level.
Kuronue 05-19-07, 11:05 PM	I'm going a little ot, however: Say that we follow the most common answer on the question of the OP. (so "yes, if can breathe under water, you can cast spells, too) Ok...now say I'm a druid wildshaped into a Fire Elemental. May I cast spells while in the lava, without the silent spell feet? don't see why not, assuming you can cast spells while wildshaped into a fire elemental in the first place
vader_rocks 05-19-07, 11:12 PM	I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Stormwrack yet.
MarkB 05-20-07, 06:50 AM	I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Stormwrack yet. To my knowledge, it doesn't go into any more detail on this particular subject than the DMG. Am I misremembering?
Optimized_Commoner 05-20-07, 09:39 AM	My reasoning behind this is that, if you're speaking (which is what a verbal component essentially is), you're not holding your breath. If you can't breathe in water, not holding your breath leads straight into drowning. I take it you don't fool around in the water much. Speaking underwater is fun and easy. It uses up a lot of air, but hardly makes you immediately drown. Trust me, I did it all the time as a kid at the local pool and I'm still very much alive. If I had to house rule it I'd say that a round spent speaking underwater uses up maybe 5 rounds of air. Comes out sounding pretty weird though (because the sound passes from air to water, passage through materials of different density changes the wavelenth of sound and distorts it). If you were magically breathing water it wouldn't sound as weird, just drops the pitch of your voice. (If my understanding of physics and vocal biology are correct). So spellcasting should be fine unless you rule you can't cast spells after breathing helium. Besides, think about it logically. You're a wizard designing a spell for you to use underwater. Wouldn't you make it facilitate spellcasting if you could? Yeah. Thought so.
Edana 05-20-07, 03:34 PM	Oh, I realize that you can 'speak' underwater in the real world. The real world and D&D's rules don't tend to get along very well though ;). RAW you're either holding your breath or you're drowning (assuming you have to breathe to continue living). There's not really any middle ground. Casting a verbal component spell is pretty clearly not holding your breath, hence my interpretation. Now, it's a perfectly reasonable house rule to only charge someone a number of rounds of air per spell cast. Or to simply make them immediately start the Constitution checks to avoid drowning. And, I don't think there's any opposition to allowing casters to cast spells if they have water breathing (by spell or naturally).
Nathreet 05-20-07, 04:22 PM	I'm thinking that's a little harsh. Perhaps as soon as you cast a spell underwater without Water Breathing on, you have to start making those Con checks right away. I dunno about you, but saying a few words underwater doesn't spend all of my breath. I'd say count a single round as multiple rounds if spellcasting, just as you would with vigorous motion.
AQuebman 05-21-07, 09:37 AM	I would have to say a concentration check is a must, making it easier/harder depending on strength of water etc... The other argument I have is not only the speaking for a spell, but material components and gestures would not be as easy and fluid(no pun intended) as on dry land. The feeling of movement in water and properly flinging your bat dung in the air might take a little concentration to get right so another reason I think that check is important. now my feeling here is you do one of two things. A.) if said caster fails his concentration check, make him start the constitution drowning rolls. B.) Find a way to consider him using extra air for that round, possibly take a few rounds off his air supply. Im not at my local DMG at the moment so im unsure off the top of my head how that's handled atm.
Timori 05-21-07, 03:37 PM	Anyone remember the old Expert Set module War Rafts of Kron? Don't think I have it any more, but there were some great rules for underwater adventuring in that.