Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lootus 09-12-07, 07:28 AM	Ok, so sometimes things can set a PC on fire. If an object is vulnerable to a certain type of attack, the attack does double damage and ignores hardness. So, what items that PCs carry or wear are considered vulnerable to fire attacks? I think cloth, rope, paper, and parchment qualify, but I'm not sure on wood, leather, and hide. If leather, wood, and hide are not considered especially vulnerable, then wood is unaffected by the damage from catching on fire (due to its hardness of 5, and fire dealing half damage to non-vulnerable objects), and leather or hide takes at most 1 point of damage, if 6 is rolled for the 1d6 fire damage (and leather or hide with a +1 enhancement bonus is unaffected). Needless to say, this is a good thing to have decided before I ask a player to start rolling saves for all of their flammable items.;) Thanks Catching On Fire Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash. Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.) A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus. Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character. Energy Attacks Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield and +10 to the item’s hit points. Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness. Item (medium creature) Hardness HP Armor (cloth or rope) 0 armor bonus x5 Armor (leather or hide) 2 armor bonus x5 Paper or cloth 0 2/inch of thickness Rope 0 2/inch of thickness Leather or hide 2 5/inch of thickness Rope, silk 0 4 Wood 5 10/inch of thickness
ebywyld 09-12-07, 11:18 AM	Alright. Since wood comes from trees, I'll copy down the SRD list for Treants weaknesses: (Listed underneath the Treants ability to Animate Trees) "...Animated trees have the same vulnerability to fire that a treant has." If you use the link for 'vulnerability' it lists that treants take 50% more damage from fire, so I'd say yes, wood would as well. In terms of leather, no, leather is resistant to fire. I'm not sure chemisty-wise why that is, but leather is listed as resistant to fire. Look up the armor just about anywhere... Hide, I would say, depends on what sort of hide the armor is taken from. For the most part, one could assume that animals don't generally burn well, like human skin isn't particularly flammable, now is it? And we have the weakest 'hides' out there! Its safe to say, no hides are vulnerable to fire. So: Wood = yes Leather = no hide = no
eamon 09-12-07, 11:58 AM	You could also take a middle-of the road approach, something in between "no hardness, double damage" and "hardness, half damage" might be applicable, say "no hardness, normal damage" or "hardness, double damage" might be good. In general, I treat the hardness+energy damage combo only as a very rough guideline - clearly, in many cases, for many substances, the acid+sonic > fire+elec > cold ordering doesn't apply. It's not hard to ad-hoc rule it.
Kouk 09-12-07, 12:49 PM	How are we burning the PCs exactly? With brief exposure, not many things a PC wears would catch on fire. To set (most) wood on fire easily requires that it be fairly dry, and even then you would need to hold the flame to it for a little bit. I would think things like staves or wooden shields would also be coated with a waxy substance, paint, oil, or otherwise some kind of something that protects it from immediate exposure to the elements, because an item swollen from moisture or fraying and splintering from dryness isn't useful to anybody. If you throw a staff into a bonfire it will burn of course, given a few seconds. But we wouldn't need lighter fluid if all wood shot up in flames the instant it was exposed to a bit of fire would we? The treant thing is "fun", it adds a bit of flavor and strategy. I don't know whether destroying PC gear in a fireball would be "fun" or "strategic" though... EDIT: For those abilities or spells which specifically set PCs on fire, I still wouldn't damage their gear. This would make those spells especially powerful against spellcasters when I think the intent was only to make a damage over time effect. Just say their hair is burning, or the magical energies linger and continue to burn, but I wouldn't start torching their magic robes and such, at least not without the "Rolling 1 on a Reflex Save" rule.
aikimiller 09-12-07, 01:26 PM	Well, as far as things catching on fire make sure they have a reflex save to put them out again. I imagine that this is probably part and parcel of the reflex save against most AoA fire effects.
PenderGrass 09-12-07, 03:13 PM	I love burning off PC eyebrows and facial hair. If they are wearing the right headgear, having their hair burned into odd hair styles is always good fun, too. :dragon: ****
Lootus 09-12-07, 07:49 PM	Alright. Since wood comes from trees, I'll copy down the SRD list for Treants weaknesses: (Listed underneath the Treants ability to Animate Trees) "...Animated trees have the same vulnerability to fire that a treant has." If you use the link for 'vulnerability' it lists that treants take 50% more damage from fire, so I'd say yes, wood would as well. While I'm all for Treants and animated trees taking extra damage from fire attacks, I agree with what Kouk is saying about the flammability of wooden objects. I could hold a torch to the handle of my shovel, but it wouldn't have any spectacular instant effect. A scroll or robes, however, I could see bursting into flames, which I think is what this rule is all about. A living tree would probably have a number of leafy, twiggy, and mossy bits that could account for the extra damage they take. How are we burning the PCs exactly? I'm only referring to specific effects that reference the "Catching on Fire" rules in the DMG. You can find one in the August Previews - the braziers in one of the preview encounters can set characters on fire. Fire Elementals can set things on fire, as can a Thoqqua. Also the Burning Hands spell. I think Alchemist's Fire may be similar enough to count as well. So I think my original ruling is looking pretty solid. If a PC fails the Reflex save and catches on fire and takes burning damage, they need to make saves for their exposed items made from cloth, paper, rope, and silk. If 6 was rolled for the 1d6 damage, their leather and hide items must save as well or take 1 damage (unless the item has a +1 or better enhancement bonus). Whereas this definitely would have a more devastating effect on magic robes than against armor, it could be a killer against magic cloaks, hats, and other such items as well. I don't think I would rule that an entire robe could be destroyed beyond repair with the first 1d6 fire damage - so the player would get a chance to use one or more full-round actions to try to put out the flames before losing their magic robe. I really don't mind if this hazard poses a real danger to a PC who doesn't take it seriously. (some common sense applies here as well - a character who walks into melee with a fire elemental wearing a magic felt hat or magic wool cloak is going to have a hard time arguing why that item wouldn't have a chance to go up in flames)
Tedronai 09-12-07, 10:03 PM	I would suggest only damaging a single prominent item from any individual instance or effect. Most of these will be rays, slam attacks, or other effects that affect only a single point or small area on the victim, and even a fireball can only damage a single item on a save of a natural 1 (and the fireball nearly completely engulfs it's victims). Also, if the player succeeds on the save to extinguish the flames dealing damage to themselves, the item should stop taking damage as well (as it would be the same fire causing damage to the character and the item)
Lootus 09-12-07, 10:38 PM	I would suggest only damaging a single prominent item from any individual instance or effect. Most of these will be rays, slam attacks, or other effects that affect only a single point or small area on the victim, and even a fireball can only damage a single item on a save of a natural 1 (and the fireball nearly completely engulfs it's victims). Although those are indeed the most similar rules as far as damaging PC equipment is concerned, I think the two situations are not the best comparison because the mechanic, effect, and consequences are very different. Also, if the player succeeds on the save to extinguish the flames dealing damage to themselves, the item should stop taking damage as well (as it would be the same fire causing damage to the character and the item) I agree. I think it's implied but this is a good point.
Loren Pechtel 09-12-07, 11:49 PM	How are we burning the PCs exactly? With brief exposure, not many things a PC wears would catch on fire. To set (most) wood on fire easily requires that it be fairly dry, and even then you would need to hold the flame to it for a little bit. I would think things like staves or wooden shields would also be coated with a waxy substance, paint, oil, or otherwise some kind of something that protects it from immediate exposure to the elements, because an item swollen from moisture or fraying and splintering from dryness isn't useful to anybody. I'm not sure here. By normal experience a quick burst of fire isn't going to do that much to you but most anything you encounter that's a quick burst of fire is magical fire and that certainly has far more ability to damage you than the duration would seem to indicate.
PenderGrass 09-13-07, 02:48 AM	...even a fireball can only damage a single item on a save of a natural 1 (and the fireball nearly completely engulfs it's victims). Actually, saving throws resulting in a natural 1 vs. a fireball (and other similar damaging spells) will affect 4 exposed items, as per the circumstance and equipment worn (see, Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, PHB v3.5, page 177). Failing a save vs. catching fire with a natural 1 should also result in this circumstance (for those that still have access to it, 2nd edition had a really nice random items affected by critically failed saves). :dragon: ****
Lootus 09-13-07, 07:44 AM	Actually, saving throws resulting in a natural 1 vs. a fireball (and other similar damaging spells) will affect 4 exposed items, as per the circumstance and equipment worn (see, Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, PHB v3.5, page 177). Failing a save vs. catching fire with a natural 1 should also result in this circumstance (for those that still have access to it, 2nd edition had a really nice random items affected by critically failed saves). Pender, I considered that as well, then decided to keep the mechanics completely separate because they were so different. Since the catching on fire rules pretty much target cloth and exposed paper/parchment (the latter probably not too common considering scroll cases), and the damage is only 1d6, the range and type of items affected is both more varied and more limited than the natural 1 damage (no items are automatically affected, but all cloth items must save). It would be nice if there was a rule that covered how many hit points different types of clothing has, besides 2/inch of thickness. Does an entire outfit have 2 hp, or 2 hp per sleeve, torso, etc.? Does a hooded cloak have 2 hp for the hood and 2 hp for the cloak part? This is another one of those things I'd like to have prepared an answer for before the situation arises and PC clothing is potentially damaged. (as cloth items will be taking 2-12 damage for each failed save)
Nom 09-14-07, 08:19 AM	You can find one in the August Previews - the braziers in one of the preview encounters can set characters on fire. Fire Elementals can set things on fire, as can a Thoqqua. Also the Burning Hands spell.The burning hands spell cannot set characters on fire. The rules you reference from DMG pg 303 specifically note that "noninstantaneous" magical fire might set a PC on fire, and explicitly exclude "spells such as fireball and flame strike". Flammable items on PCs are protected under the normal "items don't get damaged unless a PC rolls a 1" (or are specifically attacked) rules. If a flammable item is directly damaged by a spell attack and survives, then yes it might (will?) catch on fire. Similarly, if a PC catches on fire and rolls a 1 on his "put it out" Ref save, then it would be reasonable (though not necessarily RAW) to assign damage to an item (which might itself catch alight).
Lootus 09-14-07, 12:06 PM	I see what you’re saying, Nom. Here’s the problem – the first thing I did when looking at this was look at the rules for items that get damaged when a natural 1 is rolled on a saving throw. You’ll notice I didn’t include them in my rules in the OP, and there’s a good reason – they look nothing like the Catching on Fire rules. Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash. Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.) A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus. Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character. Let’s say I go with what you are saying and rule that no items have the potential to take fire damage unless there’s a natural 1 rolled on the DC 15 Reflex save at some point. Here’s the problem - a character can’t be on fire if nothing is being damaged. I’d say that if my clothes or a paper in my hand catch on fire, they are getting damaged…because they’re on fire. Yet, according to your suggestion, a character can be on fire from round to round, yet nothing he is carrying or wearing is actually on fire – which would leave the character’s hair burning as the only thing that defines him as being on fire (and even then, only non-bald characters without any hat or headgear). Either that, or what you’re saying means that a character must not only fail their DC 15 Reflex save with a natural 1, but then one of their items (randomly determined) also then needs to fail a saving throw to take damage before the character is considered to be on fire. In other words, unless you roll a natural 1 on your Reflex save, you don’t catch on fire (unless you limit the flames to hair and skin but bypass any other materials). See ebywyld’s note about animals and human skin above. In addition, the way the rules for catching on fire are worded, it’s pretty clear that this condition refers to the character going up in flames like you’d see on TV – clothing, equipment, and all – hence all the Reflex saves required for flammable materials (see parts in bold above). Looking at these facts, I concluded that the below rules for a random item making a save when a natural 1 is rolled on a saving throw from a magical effect really didn’t have anything to do with the rules for catching on fire. I didn’t even think to confirm this, because I didn’t know it would be contested. Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal. Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks Order* - Item 1st - Shield 2nd - Armor 3rd - Magic helmet, hat, or headband 4th - Item in hand (including weapon, wand, or the like) 5th - Magic cloak 6th - Stowed or sheathed weapon 7th - Magic bracers 8th - Magic clothing 9th - Magic jewelry (including rings) 10th - Anything else * In order of most likely to least likely to be affected. When I first realized this I was highly skeptical of the rules for catching on fire. Surely one measly brazier shouldn’t be able to blow away so much of a character’s equipment! So I looked at the wording some more and thought to myself, what types of items are they considering to be “flammable”? I didn’t think it would make much sense for wood to be considered flammable in this situation. Considering that, looking at the rules for damaging objects and item hardness, fire deals half damage to objects and wood has a hardness of 5 – meaning the 1d6 fire damage per round would never damage a wooden item on the PC. Next up was leather and hide. From what others have said above, I’m not considering this material to be flammable in this situation either. However, due to its hardness of only 2, rolling 6 on the 1d6 fire damage has a chance to deal a single point of damage to a leather item that fails its save. Still seems perfectly reasonable. Finally, I considered paper, parchment, rope, and cloth. These materials I placed in the ‘can go up in flames’ category. At this point the mechanic wasn’t looking that unreasonable. If a PC catches on fire, they aren’t going to have any of their wooden items destroyed, and non-magic leather or hide items are going to be at most a little bit damaged, and even that much is unlikely. As for the flammable materials, IMO no player should ever argue with me if I tell them that the paper or parchment they are holding in their hand is destroyed when their character goes up in flames. I don’t care if it’s a scroll of True Ressurection or Wish, you’re holding a piece of paper and you’re on fire. It’s generous enough that it gets a save in the first place. (ok, so maybe they could just drop such an item as a free action to avoid this, but let’s say the paper is tucked halfway into their belt or something). Anyway, I don’t foresee this happening much at all (especially not with experienced players), as long as the characters keep any paper or parchment items either in scroll cases or in leather backpacks (a wizard with an exposed spellbook strapped on to their person who catches on fire and loses the spellbook gets some sympathy from me…but only once. After that, they should learn to protect it better). Most of this applies to rope items as well. So that leaves cloth items. Do I want to let the PC’s cloth items be destroyed so easily in this situation? Short answer: Yes. The explanation for this rationale is a combination of both rules and common sense. First, the rules clearly intend (to me) for this to be the case. I’m not making a house rule or an arbitrary decision – just using the rules in the intended way. Like I said, they pop up now and then. There’s at least one encounter in my current game that uses them (it’s a newer published adventure). That just leaves my question above about how many hit points different items have (cloth has 2/inch of thickness, but how many total hit points does a hooded cloak have? How about a shirt, hat, or gloves?) Second, the common sense part. It’s not like I’m going to try to gleefully burn away PC clothing in every encounter, and I see little need to argue with a player about why their character’s clothes got destroyed when they were immolated in flames. But having a thorough knowledge of these rules beforehand also allows me to make the game more interesting for my players. If you aren’t wearing armor, then don’t engage creatures made of living fire, and stay away from flames. If you wear a magic wool cloak into melee with a fire elemental and it goes up in flames, what did you expect? Throw the cloak off before engaging the creature. Sure, a wizard’s magic robe can be destroyed by flames whereas a fighter’s chain mail cannot, however the fighter’s shield and other equipment is still subject to being sundered or damaged by a natural 1 on a failed save, and he might not have the choice to not engage that fire elemental in melee. If for some reason this type of situation arises often, like if the PCs are adventuring on a fire-aligned plane, then they shouldn’t be surprised by it, and probably already have magic that renders them immune to this condition. I agree that it’s not “nice” to capriciously harm a character’s items, however also I feel no need to rationalize why a character’s favorite felt hat is not destroyed when burning coals fall on his head. I highlighted my outstanding question above about hit points of various clothing, because that’s the information I would like to have in order to feel completely comfortable with this mechanic. Regarding the Burning Hands spell, I’d rather not discuss it too much because it’s no secret that some spells weren’t exactly seamlessly integrated with the rules (see my question on Grease in another thread, for example). I think it’s supposed to be more like a flamethrower effect than the standard fire spells, hence the reference to flammable items. (my take is that the spell should have referenced the catching on fire rules for those who take damage from it, but like I said, it’s not exactly the most clearly worded spell in the rules) Evocation [Fire] Level: Fire 1, Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 15 ft. Area: Cone-shaped burst Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes A cone of searing flame shoots from your fingertips. Any creature in the area of the flames takes 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action.
PenderGrass 09-14-07, 01:31 PM	All of that will never make 4th edition, as it is too complicated. ;) In actuality, I see no real reason for making it that overly-complicated. A brazier, or virtually any other source of fiery concern, can "coat" the victim partially with its fuel, thereby allowing them to burn for a short period of time. :dragon: ****
Lootus 09-15-07, 09:09 AM	:embarrass Sorry, I didn't intend to over-complicate things, I really just want to know how many hit points clothing has, and to verify that wood and leather are not considered especially flammable in this situation. ...I just want to know how to properly set my PCs on fire, is that so wrong? :evillaugh
Prince_of_Parkness 09-15-07, 06:00 PM	Rule 0: everything burns Rule 1: If something doesnt burn, refer to rule 0 (sorry, having seen the title of the thread i had to post that)
Tedronai 09-16-07, 01:13 AM	Actually, saving throws resulting in a natural 1 vs. a fireball (and other similar damaging spells) will affect 4 exposed items, as per the circumstance and equipment worn (see, Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, PHB v3.5, page 177). Actually, you probably should have kept reading. It will affect 1 of those 4 items, determined randomly. Last sentence on the left-hand column continuing on the right-hand column.
Lootus 09-16-07, 10:13 AM	Here's what I came up with for clothing hit points. What do you think? HP = 2 x size modifier Creature Size Modifier Item HP Diminutive x1 2 Tiny x2 4 Small x4 8 Medium x8 16 Large x16 32 Huge x32 64 ---Item Hit Points--- Item Small Medium Large Robes or dress x1 8 16 32 Back (cloak) x1 8 16 32 Legs (pants, skirt, etc.) x1/2 4 8 16 Torso (tunic, tabard, etc.) x1/2 4 8 16 Head (hat, hood, etc.) x1/4 2 4 8 Hands (gloves) x1/8 2 4 8 Feet (shoes) x1/8 2 4 8 Neck (scarf) x1/8 2 4 8
weasel0 09-17-07, 09:18 PM	If something isn't flammable, you simply aren't using enough fire.
Rania 09-20-07, 11:52 PM	If something isn't flammable, you simply aren't using enough fire.LOL. You sound just like someone I know called Sabreur....