Challenge Rating of NPCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge Rating of NPCs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
robby_dog
06-17-07, 06:00 PM Hi folks - this is a protracted query, so apologies.

In the DMG on p.127 (in v3.5) it partially shows how to adjust NPCs based on
their race (I say partially because it says you have to feats, special
attacks and special qualities as well - and this is the first example of the
DMG being incomplete and unhelpful). Next to some races it clearly states an
adjustment to the CR of the NPC (e.g, Bugbear: +2 CR). However, none of the
races seem to give a negative adjustment.

At this point I go back to the Monster Manual (MM), which I'm sure we all
remember boasted a -3 level adjustment for Kobolds. It was here I made what
I believe to be my first major breakthrough and I quote from the MM "Kobolds
with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3".

NPC classes, hmmm... I wonder if NPC classes mean something more than just
the class of an NPC? Back to the DMG and p.110 "This section provides a set
of baseline statistics for NPCs of every standard class". So this section of
the DMG, where it states the CRs of NPCs by race later on p.127 is for NPCs
with "standard" classes (which I now believe to be synonomous with PC
classes, although this is not stated explicitly - thanks again DMG), where
as the monster manual was talking about NPCs with NPC classes, which are of
course those like Adepts, Warriors and Commoners.

All sorted then... Not quite :(

There are still one or two inconsistencies, which I can't get around. The
first concerns Kobolds but I think I may have just figured it out, which is
another reason while I'm typing this e-mail (I'm sure psychology Dr Rob will
understand that comment). I was wondering why it states in the DMG that "For
a creature with monster levels in addition to NPC class levels, add the NPC
levels -1 to the creatures base CR (always adding at least 1)" but then in
the monster manual contradicts this by saying -2 CR for Goblin NPC class
levels and -3 CR for Kobold NPC class levels. Surely either it is
categorically -1 for everything or it is not. However, it has just occurred
to me that Goblins and Kobolds do not have monster levels, as opposed to
creatures such as Centaurs and Ogres which apparently do! So maybe that
explains it.

MAYBE that explains it but how can I be sure when the MM is so vague about
what has monster levels and what doesn't and how these monster levels affect
things.

Admittedly I have just found the glossery which explains the effects of the
Monster types but it is incomplete, which I will return to later. While we
are on the subject though, why does the Kobold take a greater CR penalty
than the human for NPC classes (-3 as oppose to the standard -1) but neither
of them take any CR penalty for levels in PC classes?

Second problem: Ogres on p.199 of the MM. Compare the Ogre and the 4th Level
Barabarian Ogre stats in the table. Ogre: CR 3, 4L Barb Ogre: CR 7. Now look
again at p.127 of the DMG , where under NPC adjustments it says "Ogre: +2
CR". It doesn't take a ****ing mathematician to work out that 4 levels of
barbarian plus 2 CR does not equal the CR 7 quoted in the MM. Well maybe it
has somthing to do with the tiny footnote under the table on p.38 of the DMG
where it says "The Ogre with no class levels has a CR of 2". Huh? In the MM
it quite clearly states "Ogre: CR 3".

Anyway, to cut a long story ever so slightly shorter I managed to work out
the the Ogre in the MM was actually a 1st level Warrior Ogre (well thanks a
lot for telling me MM, your about as helpful as the DMG!). Seriously, if you
compare the NPC Warrior table with the Ogre table and the "Ogres as
characters" prose it does appear to be a 1st level Warrior Ogre. I can
therefore only assume that the 4th level barbarian Ogre is in fact an Ogre
with 4 levels of barbarian and 1 level of warrior (CR 4 for barb, CR 1 for
Warrior (which is the minimum additional CR for an NPC class even though it
would still be + 1 CR if the creature had 2 levels in Warrior, taking into
account the -1 NPC penanlty) and +2 CR adjustment for the fact it is an Ogre
= 7. Yay.

So that's alright then... NO!

What about the Centaur (I know, I know, sigh!)? I know what you're thinking,
you're thinking that it's obvious that p.127 of the DMG is correct for the
purposes of creating NPCs with PC or "standard" classes and that I should
just add the CR adjustment (if there is one) to the character level to
establish the creature's total CR and that it doesn't matter how it works
because it just does.

I wish I could leave it at that, I really, really do but it all falls down
with the Centaur on p.32 of the MM. I know that it is possible to create an
NPC Centaur because on p.38 of the DMG it says "For example, a Centaur is CR
1, so a Centaur who's also a 7th level Ranger is CR 8". Ok great, so let's
create an NPC Centaur, let's see, got it's class and level sorted so let's
just flick back to p.127 of the DMG and see what the relevant racial NPC
adjustments are...

DAMN IT! No Centaur, just a gaping omission between Bugbear and Derro
(whatever the hell that is)! So it seems that the the DMG is incomplete
(Shock, horror, 3 strikes). Also, woah, woah, woah, back up... "a Centaur is
CR 1)???? Well that's funny because in the MM it clearly states that a
Centaur is CR 3. Must be that irritating habit of the MM to not tell me when
the Centaur is also a 2nd level Ranger or something. You see this is the
real problem, how can I possibly know?

Also, going back, if I may, to the "Creature Types" e.g. Giant, Monstrous
Humanoid etc, does this mean that 4 levels in Giant (which is what the Ore
starts with) gives a base CR of 2 (which is what the Ogre has without it's
crappy Warrior level), whereas 4 levels of Monstrous Humanoid (which is what
the Centaur starts with) gives a base CR of 1 (which is what the Centaur
supposedly has)? If so, where can I find this information? I would have
though that if nowhere else it would be in the Glossary of the MM under each
"Type" but it's not.

So this my friends is really where I get stuck. It's irritating because I
feel I am close to figuring out the method in the madness but somehow I am
missing one vital piece of information, which is hidden somewhere in either
the DMG or the MM or, god forbid, even the PHB.

Other oddities I've noticed are the following:

1. The goblin and Kobold in the DMG are both 1st level Warriors. So, the
Kobold seems to have no "base level" unlike the Ogre but it gets the minimum
CR of 1 thanks to it's 1 NPC class. Then we add it's -3 levels like it tells
us to in the DMG and we get a total CR of -2. Obviously not correct. It
seems that 1 - 1 in terms of CR is actually 1/2, 1 - 2 is actually 1/3 (see
Goblins) and 1 -3 is actually 1/4. This method seems to work but like so
many other aspects of this conundrum, it is only a guess because I can't
find where if anywhere this is stated if any of the books.

2. Level adjustments. At first they seem to be the missing piece of the
puzzle but trust me they are not. They seem to be used for actual Monster
PCs rather than for Monster PC classes. They seem to determine how much
experience they get for killing others and how much they need to level up
but not how much XP others get for killing them, which is of course what the
CR is for. Take the Drow on p.102-104 of the MM for example, a CR adjustment
of +1 but a "level adjustment" of +2. Quite why they need 2 separate systems
for gaining XP and embodying XP is beyond me but there it is.

I feel reluctant to continue planning my campaign until I am sure that the
NPCs are of the right difficulty and knowing the correct CR is the only way
to be sure. Also, it is a vital part of calculating XP. So in summary:

HELP!

If someone can explain to me clearly and simply what I am missing, that
would be great.:confused:

Cheers
Rob
pres_man
06-17-07, 06:57 PM All sorted then... Not quite :(
Correct NPC classes are adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, and warrior. These are less powerful then PC classes (pretty much every other class).

I was wondering why it states in the DMG that "For a creature with monster levels in addition to NPC class levels, add the NPC levels -1 to the creatures base CR (always adding at least 1)" but then in the monster manual contradicts this by saying -2 CR for Goblin NPC class levels and -3 CR for Kobold NPC class levels. Surely either it is categorically -1 for everything or it is not. However, it has just occurred to me that Goblins and Kobolds do not have monster levels, as opposed to creatures such as Centaurs and Ogres which apparently do! So maybe that explains it.
Sort of, kobolds and goblins are exceptions to the standard rule for most humanoids.

MAYBE that explains it but how can I be sure when the MM is so vague about what has monster levels and what doesn't and how these monster levels affect things.
If it only has 1 HD, you drop that in favor of its first class (either NPC or PC).

Admittedly I have just found the glossery which explains the effects of the Monster types but it is incomplete, which I will return to later. While we are on the subject though, why does the Kobold take a greater CR penalty than the human for NPC classes (-3 as oppose to the standard -1) but neither of them take any CR penalty for levels in PC classes?
The kobold makes a relatively poor combatant with only NPC levels due to its low abilities. Usually with playing as a PC though those limitations can be overcome or bypassed by good class choices or ability placements.
pres_man
06-17-07, 07:04 PM Second problem: Ogres on p.199 of the MM. Compare the Ogre and the 4th Level
Barabarian Ogre stats in the table. Ogre: CR 3, 4L Barb Ogre: CR 7. Now look
again at p.127 of the DMG , where under NPC adjustments it says "Ogre: +2
CR". It doesn't take a ****ing mathematician to work out that 4 levels of
barbarian plus 2 CR does not equal the CR 7 quoted in the MM. Well maybe it
has somthing to do with the tiny footnote under the table on p.38 of the DMG
where it says "The Ogre with no class levels has a CR of 2". Huh? In the MM
it quite clearly states "Ogre: CR 3".

Anyway, to cut a long story ever so slightly shorter I managed to work out
the the Ogre in the MM was actually a 1st level Warrior Ogre (well thanks a
lot for telling me MM, your about as helpful as the DMG!). Seriously, if you
compare the NPC Warrior table with the Ogre table and the "Ogres as
characters" prose it does appear to be a 1st level Warrior Ogre. I can
therefore only assume that the 4th level barbarian Ogre is in fact an Ogre
with 4 levels of barbarian and 1 level of warrior (CR 4 for barb, CR 1 for
Warrior (which is the minimum additional CR for an NPC class even though it
would still be + 1 CR if the creature had 2 levels in Warrior, taking into
account the -1 NPC penanlty) and +2 CR adjustment for the fact it is an Ogre
= 7. Yay.
Actually you were right the first time, add the class levels to the base CR of the creature (well it actually is more complicated, lets say we just give it class levels that work towards its strengths). The real problem here is that the DMG is wrong, as it states in the errata for it.
Ogre CR
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 38
Problem: Table at bottom right says ogres are CR 2 (without class levels). Monster Manual says (correctly) that ogres are CR 3.
Solution: CR numbers in the two ogre lines of the table need changing—increment all of them by 1. Also, change “2” to “3” in the note beneath the table.
pres_man
06-17-07, 07:23 PM 1. The goblin and Kobold in the DMG are both 1st level Warriors. So, the Kobold seems to have no "base level" unlike the Ogre but it gets the minimum CR of 1 thanks to it's 1 NPC class. Then we add it's -3 levels like it tells us to in the DMG and we get a total CR of -2. Obviously not correct. It seems that 1 - 1 in terms of CR is actually 1/2, 1 - 2 is actually 1/3 (see Goblins) and 1 -3 is actually 1/4. This method seems to work but like so many other aspects of this conundrum, it is only a guess because I can't find where if anywhere this is stated if any of the books.
That's pretty much how it goes. For example, a 1st level orc warrior is CR 1/2. The assumption I believe is that it is related to the number to equal a encounter of level 1 (CR 1/2 = 2 orcs to be an EL 1, CR 1/4 = 4 kobolds to be an EL 1).

2. Level adjustments. At first they seem to be the missing piece of the puzzle but trust me they are not. They seem to be used for actual Monster PCs rather than for Monster PC classes. They seem to determine how much experience they get for killing others and how much they need to level up but not how much XP others get for killing them, which is of course what the CR is for. Take the Drow on p.102-104 of the MM for example, a CR adjustment of +1 but a "level adjustment" of +2. Quite why they need 2 separate systems for gaining XP and embodying XP is beyond me but there it is.
Repeat after me LA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CR. Keep saying that until it sticks. LA is based solely for if a player wants to play a non-standard creature as a PC, that is all. Some abilities are more powerful over a PC's gaming then for a single combat encounter (for example, given enough time a troll PC will always heal up, but in combat their healing is only marginally a benefit).

If you have more specific questions I would be happy to try to clarify them.

Also not to further cause confusion but if you choose to apply classes to a creature that do not play to its strengths (no pun intended) the calculating of the CR gets a bit more complicated. For example a 4th level sorcerer ogre would be CR 5 (base CR 3 + 1/2[4 levels of sorcerer]). Yet a 6th level sorcerer ogre would be CR 7 (base CR 3 + 1/2[4 levels of sorcerer] + 2 levels of sorcerer). The rules are in the MM (p.294) about associated and non-associated classes.
robby_dog
06-18-07, 12:44 PM Thanks very much for your help. I shall consider your responses and your kind offer of specific help - I may be in touch about that! :)

Cheers
Rob
Romestano_Nailo
06-20-07, 02:10 PM Hi guys,

I for one have found this thread very useful, however I am still slightly confused about a couple of issues.

With regards to the Ogre, should the CR adjustment on p.127 of the DMG be +3 rather than +2 in line with the CR given in the MM?

Also, with regards to the Centaur, why does it say it is CR 1 on p.38 of the DMG but CR 3 on p.32 of the MM? Is the "base CR" always the CR stated in the MM or is there some other way of calculating it?
pres_man
06-20-07, 02:34 PM With regards to the Ogre, should the CR adjustment on p.127 of the DMG be +3 rather than +2 in line with the CR given in the MM?
The DMG errata (in post 3) says it is a CR 3 to begin with not, CR 2.

, with regards to the Centaur, why does it say it is CR 1 on p.38 of the DMG but CR 3 on p.32 of the MM?
Editor error. My guess is that a different creature was originally intended, and then they changed their mind to a centaur but didn't change this.

Is the "base CR" always the CR stated in the MM or is there some other way of calculating it?
That is exactly the case.
Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
*emphasis mine

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
robby_dog 06-17-07, 06:00 PM	Hi folks - this is a protracted query, so apologies. In the DMG on p.127 (in v3.5) it partially shows how to adjust NPCs based on their race (I say partially because it says you have to feats, special attacks and special qualities as well - and this is the first example of the DMG being incomplete and unhelpful). Next to some races it clearly states an adjustment to the CR of the NPC (e.g, Bugbear: +2 CR). However, none of the races seem to give a negative adjustment. At this point I go back to the Monster Manual (MM), which I'm sure we all remember boasted a -3 level adjustment for Kobolds. It was here I made what I believe to be my first major breakthrough and I quote from the MM "Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3". NPC classes, hmmm... I wonder if NPC classes mean something more than just the class of an NPC? Back to the DMG and p.110 "This section provides a set of baseline statistics for NPCs of every standard class". So this section of the DMG, where it states the CRs of NPCs by race later on p.127 is for NPCs with "standard" classes (which I now believe to be synonomous with PC classes, although this is not stated explicitly - thanks again DMG), where as the monster manual was talking about NPCs with NPC classes, which are of course those like Adepts, Warriors and Commoners. All sorted then... Not quite :( There are still one or two inconsistencies, which I can't get around. The first concerns Kobolds but I think I may have just figured it out, which is another reason while I'm typing this e-mail (I'm sure psychology Dr Rob will understand that comment). I was wondering why it states in the DMG that "For a creature with monster levels in addition to NPC class levels, add the NPC levels -1 to the creatures base CR (always adding at least 1)" but then in the monster manual contradicts this by saying -2 CR for Goblin NPC class levels and -3 CR for Kobold NPC class levels. Surely either it is categorically -1 for everything or it is not. However, it has just occurred to me that Goblins and Kobolds do not have monster levels, as opposed to creatures such as Centaurs and Ogres which apparently do! So maybe that explains it. MAYBE that explains it but how can I be sure when the MM is so vague about what has monster levels and what doesn't and how these monster levels affect things. Admittedly I have just found the glossery which explains the effects of the Monster types but it is incomplete, which I will return to later. While we are on the subject though, why does the Kobold take a greater CR penalty than the human for NPC classes (-3 as oppose to the standard -1) but neither of them take any CR penalty for levels in PC classes? Second problem: Ogres on p.199 of the MM. Compare the Ogre and the 4th Level Barabarian Ogre stats in the table. Ogre: CR 3, 4L Barb Ogre: CR 7. Now look again at p.127 of the DMG , where under NPC adjustments it says "Ogre: +2 CR". It doesn't take a ****ing mathematician to work out that 4 levels of barbarian plus 2 CR does not equal the CR 7 quoted in the MM. Well maybe it has somthing to do with the tiny footnote under the table on p.38 of the DMG where it says "The Ogre with no class levels has a CR of 2". Huh? In the MM it quite clearly states "Ogre: CR 3". Anyway, to cut a long story ever so slightly shorter I managed to work out the the Ogre in the MM was actually a 1st level Warrior Ogre (well thanks a lot for telling me MM, your about as helpful as the DMG!). Seriously, if you compare the NPC Warrior table with the Ogre table and the "Ogres as characters" prose it does appear to be a 1st level Warrior Ogre. I can therefore only assume that the 4th level barbarian Ogre is in fact an Ogre with 4 levels of barbarian and 1 level of warrior (CR 4 for barb, CR 1 for Warrior (which is the minimum additional CR for an NPC class even though it would still be + 1 CR if the creature had 2 levels in Warrior, taking into account the -1 NPC penanlty) and +2 CR adjustment for the fact it is an Ogre = 7. Yay. So that's alright then... NO! What about the Centaur (I know, I know, sigh!)? I know what you're thinking, you're thinking that it's obvious that p.127 of the DMG is correct for the purposes of creating NPCs with PC or "standard" classes and that I should just add the CR adjustment (if there is one) to the character level to establish the creature's total CR and that it doesn't matter how it works because it just does. I wish I could leave it at that, I really, really do but it all falls down with the Centaur on p.32 of the MM. I know that it is possible to create an NPC Centaur because on p.38 of the DMG it says "For example, a Centaur is CR 1, so a Centaur who's also a 7th level Ranger is CR 8". Ok great, so let's create an NPC Centaur, let's see, got it's class and level sorted so let's just flick back to p.127 of the DMG and see what the relevant racial NPC adjustments are... DAMN IT! No Centaur, just a gaping omission between Bugbear and Derro (whatever the hell that is)! So it seems that the the DMG is incomplete (Shock, horror, 3 strikes). Also, woah, woah, woah, back up... "a Centaur is CR 1)???? Well that's funny because in the MM it clearly states that a Centaur is CR 3. Must be that irritating habit of the MM to not tell me when the Centaur is also a 2nd level Ranger or something. You see this is the real problem, how can I possibly know? Also, going back, if I may, to the "Creature Types" e.g. Giant, Monstrous Humanoid etc, does this mean that 4 levels in Giant (which is what the Ore starts with) gives a base CR of 2 (which is what the Ogre has without it's crappy Warrior level), whereas 4 levels of Monstrous Humanoid (which is what the Centaur starts with) gives a base CR of 1 (which is what the Centaur supposedly has)? If so, where can I find this information? I would have though that if nowhere else it would be in the Glossary of the MM under each "Type" but it's not. So this my friends is really where I get stuck. It's irritating because I feel I am close to figuring out the method in the madness but somehow I am missing one vital piece of information, which is hidden somewhere in either the DMG or the MM or, god forbid, even the PHB. Other oddities I've noticed are the following: 1. The goblin and Kobold in the DMG are both 1st level Warriors. So, the Kobold seems to have no "base level" unlike the Ogre but it gets the minimum CR of 1 thanks to it's 1 NPC class. Then we add it's -3 levels like it tells us to in the DMG and we get a total CR of -2. Obviously not correct. It seems that 1 - 1 in terms of CR is actually 1/2, 1 - 2 is actually 1/3 (see Goblins) and 1 -3 is actually 1/4. This method seems to work but like so many other aspects of this conundrum, it is only a guess because I can't find where if anywhere this is stated if any of the books. 2. Level adjustments. At first they seem to be the missing piece of the puzzle but trust me they are not. They seem to be used for actual Monster PCs rather than for Monster PC classes. They seem to determine how much experience they get for killing others and how much they need to level up but not how much XP others get for killing them, which is of course what the CR is for. Take the Drow on p.102-104 of the MM for example, a CR adjustment of +1 but a "level adjustment" of +2. Quite why they need 2 separate systems for gaining XP and embodying XP is beyond me but there it is. I feel reluctant to continue planning my campaign until I am sure that the NPCs are of the right difficulty and knowing the correct CR is the only way to be sure. Also, it is a vital part of calculating XP. So in summary: HELP! If someone can explain to me clearly and simply what I am missing, that would be great.:confused: Cheers Rob
pres_man 06-17-07, 06:57 PM	All sorted then... Not quite :( Correct NPC classes are adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, and warrior. These are less powerful then PC classes (pretty much every other class). I was wondering why it states in the DMG that "For a creature with monster levels in addition to NPC class levels, add the NPC levels -1 to the creatures base CR (always adding at least 1)" but then in the monster manual contradicts this by saying -2 CR for Goblin NPC class levels and -3 CR for Kobold NPC class levels. Surely either it is categorically -1 for everything or it is not. However, it has just occurred to me that Goblins and Kobolds do not have monster levels, as opposed to creatures such as Centaurs and Ogres which apparently do! So maybe that explains it. Sort of, kobolds and goblins are exceptions to the standard rule for most humanoids. MAYBE that explains it but how can I be sure when the MM is so vague about what has monster levels and what doesn't and how these monster levels affect things. If it only has 1 HD, you drop that in favor of its first class (either NPC or PC). Admittedly I have just found the glossery which explains the effects of the Monster types but it is incomplete, which I will return to later. While we are on the subject though, why does the Kobold take a greater CR penalty than the human for NPC classes (-3 as oppose to the standard -1) but neither of them take any CR penalty for levels in PC classes? The kobold makes a relatively poor combatant with only NPC levels due to its low abilities. Usually with playing as a PC though those limitations can be overcome or bypassed by good class choices or ability placements.
pres_man 06-17-07, 07:04 PM	Second problem: Ogres on p.199 of the MM. Compare the Ogre and the 4th Level Barabarian Ogre stats in the table. Ogre: CR 3, 4L Barb Ogre: CR 7. Now look again at p.127 of the DMG , where under NPC adjustments it says "Ogre: +2 CR". It doesn't take a ****ing mathematician to work out that 4 levels of barbarian plus 2 CR does not equal the CR 7 quoted in the MM. Well maybe it has somthing to do with the tiny footnote under the table on p.38 of the DMG where it says "The Ogre with no class levels has a CR of 2". Huh? In the MM it quite clearly states "Ogre: CR 3". Anyway, to cut a long story ever so slightly shorter I managed to work out the the Ogre in the MM was actually a 1st level Warrior Ogre (well thanks a lot for telling me MM, your about as helpful as the DMG!). Seriously, if you compare the NPC Warrior table with the Ogre table and the "Ogres as characters" prose it does appear to be a 1st level Warrior Ogre. I can therefore only assume that the 4th level barbarian Ogre is in fact an Ogre with 4 levels of barbarian and 1 level of warrior (CR 4 for barb, CR 1 for Warrior (which is the minimum additional CR for an NPC class even though it would still be + 1 CR if the creature had 2 levels in Warrior, taking into account the -1 NPC penanlty) and +2 CR adjustment for the fact it is an Ogre = 7. Yay. Actually you were right the first time, add the class levels to the base CR of the creature (well it actually is more complicated, lets say we just give it class levels that work towards its strengths). The real problem here is that the DMG is wrong, as it states in the errata for it. Ogre CR Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 38 Problem: Table at bottom right says ogres are CR 2 (without class levels). Monster Manual says (correctly) that ogres are CR 3. Solution: CR numbers in the two ogre lines of the table need changing—increment all of them by 1. Also, change “2” to “3” in the note beneath the table.
pres_man 06-17-07, 07:23 PM	1. The goblin and Kobold in the DMG are both 1st level Warriors. So, the Kobold seems to have no "base level" unlike the Ogre but it gets the minimum CR of 1 thanks to it's 1 NPC class. Then we add it's -3 levels like it tells us to in the DMG and we get a total CR of -2. Obviously not correct. It seems that 1 - 1 in terms of CR is actually 1/2, 1 - 2 is actually 1/3 (see Goblins) and 1 -3 is actually 1/4. This method seems to work but like so many other aspects of this conundrum, it is only a guess because I can't find where if anywhere this is stated if any of the books. That's pretty much how it goes. For example, a 1st level orc warrior is CR 1/2. The assumption I believe is that it is related to the number to equal a encounter of level 1 (CR 1/2 = 2 orcs to be an EL 1, CR 1/4 = 4 kobolds to be an EL 1). 2. Level adjustments. At first they seem to be the missing piece of the puzzle but trust me they are not. They seem to be used for actual Monster PCs rather than for Monster PC classes. They seem to determine how much experience they get for killing others and how much they need to level up but not how much XP others get for killing them, which is of course what the CR is for. Take the Drow on p.102-104 of the MM for example, a CR adjustment of +1 but a "level adjustment" of +2. Quite why they need 2 separate systems for gaining XP and embodying XP is beyond me but there it is. Repeat after me LA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CR. Keep saying that until it sticks. LA is based solely for if a player wants to play a non-standard creature as a PC, that is all. Some abilities are more powerful over a PC's gaming then for a single combat encounter (for example, given enough time a troll PC will always heal up, but in combat their healing is only marginally a benefit). If you have more specific questions I would be happy to try to clarify them. Also not to further cause confusion but if you choose to apply classes to a creature that do not play to its strengths (no pun intended) the calculating of the CR gets a bit more complicated. For example a 4th level sorcerer ogre would be CR 5 (base CR 3 + 1/2[4 levels of sorcerer]). Yet a 6th level sorcerer ogre would be CR 7 (base CR 3 + 1/2[4 levels of sorcerer] + 2 levels of sorcerer). The rules are in the MM (p.294) about associated and non-associated classes.
robby_dog 06-18-07, 12:44 PM	Thanks very much for your help. I shall consider your responses and your kind offer of specific help - I may be in touch about that! :) Cheers Rob
Romestano_Nailo 06-20-07, 02:10 PM	Hi guys, I for one have found this thread very useful, however I am still slightly confused about a couple of issues. With regards to the Ogre, should the CR adjustment on p.127 of the DMG be +3 rather than +2 in line with the CR given in the MM? Also, with regards to the Centaur, why does it say it is CR 1 on p.38 of the DMG but CR 3 on p.32 of the MM? Is the "base CR" always the CR stated in the MM or is there some other way of calculating it?
pres_man 06-20-07, 02:34 PM	With regards to the Ogre, should the CR adjustment on p.127 of the DMG be +3 rather than +2 in line with the CR given in the MM? The DMG errata (in post 3) says it is a CR 3 to begin with not, CR 2. , with regards to the Centaur, why does it say it is CR 1 on p.38 of the DMG but CR 3 on p.32 of the MM? Editor error. My guess is that a different creature was originally intended, and then they changed their mind to a centaur but didn't change this. Is the "base CR" always the CR stated in the MM or is there some other way of calculating it? That is exactly the case. Errata Rule: Primary Sources When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player’s Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for PC races, and the base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master’s Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player’s Handbook, you should assume the Player’s Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master’s Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. *emphasis mine