CHALLENGE - help find this missing rule! [Archive] - Wizards Community

CHALLENGE - help find this missing rule! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bolorhaig
08-27-07, 03:11 AM howdy all

i distinctly remember reading an optional rule for ranged attackers whereby they can gain flanking benefits vs a target IF the ranged attacker has a flanking ally in melee on the other side of the target.

BUT I CAN'T FIND IT!!!!!

plz help me locate this rule. it was prob in a 3.0 publication, and it was definitely in an official book.

plz don't bother directing my attention to the optional ranger flanking ability from PHB2. that's not it.

bolorhaig
Voidboy
08-27-07, 03:22 AM Maybe none of it is what you are looking for.

I. Distracting attack (replaces animal companion for rangers, PHB II.)
In tha case YOU grant the flanking benefits to others, so that is out.

II. Whisperknife PRC from Races of the Wild, gains ranged flanking (10') at 9th level.
Bolorhaig
08-27-07, 04:37 AM though i appreciate your effort and speedy reply to my post, i did specifically mention that i'm not interested in the ranger ability from PHB2.

"plz don't bother directing my attention to the optional ranger flanking ability from PHB2. that's not it."

it's not that i'm LOOKING for the ability to gain flanking w/range attacks. it's that i'm looking for a rule that i once read that allows anyone to do so.

still looking...

bolorhaig
deduke
08-27-07, 08:10 AM Its in the 3.0 phb in the combat chapter. Ranged flanking was dropped in 3.5
Bolorhaig
08-27-07, 03:30 PM i'm sorry to be difficult, but can you be more specific about the location of the ranged flanking rule in 3.0 PHB? i'm sitting here w/the book open to the combat chapter (8) in front of me and can't find it.

thnx

bolorhaig
Salla
08-27-07, 05:05 PM Other than a handful of spells or Prestige Class abilities, it is (and always has been) impossible to flank with ranged weapons in D&D 3rd Edition, 3.0 or 3.5. This is because you do not normally threaten with a ranged weapon, and threatening is a requirement for flanking.
Bolorhaig
08-27-07, 06:24 PM again i must apologize for contradicting someone who's trying to help, but there was something that i read that allowed for ranged sneak attack vs a target w/a melee ally on the other side from the range attacker. i remember reading it; we've always used it in our game; another GM has asked me about it, and i'm trying to locate the rule for him.

i simply can't remember where it was. it's not 3.0 PHB or DMG, nor can i find it in any of the 3.0 class-based supplements (sword n fist, song n silence, etc).

i do remember that some copies of the 3.0 PHB and DMG had inserts in the back - FAQs, more detailed explanations of combat maneuvering, etc. i'm wondering if it was in one of those. i no longer have the inserts in my books.

bolorhaig
Marcus Majarra
08-27-07, 08:40 PM The kind of rule you're looking for is not a core rule. In fact, it was never even suggested as a variant rule. Ranged flanking is a powerful ability to have.
StevenO
08-27-07, 08:54 PM You may remember it but I think you are definitely in the minority there. Something as big as flanking at range is something people with any interest in sneak attack would remember and they'd also keep track of the source for just the situation you are involved in.
Bolorhaig
08-28-07, 02:17 AM marcus and steven, you raise an interesting point though one not precisely pertinent to my search. i've posted this same search request elsewhere, and many others have commented that it was "fortunate" that ranged flanking never entered the game (at least certainly not in 3.5).

the point you raise that IS pertinent to my search, and one that i'm disappointed to have to consider, is the lack of memory of this rule on the part of any other gamer replying so far. i've always been 1st to admit this was a rule variant that i'm remembering, but i was 100% certain (and am still 75% certain) that i'd read it in an official publication.

perhaps i misread something a few years ago, and it cemented in my memory as this ghost rule? perhaps the sample of gamers who've replied thus far isn't quite large enough to consider it as representative of the memory of all 3.0 d&d players in general? perhaps i read it in some obscure splat book and, after adopting it for my own game, came to believe it was an officially published variant?

i'm willing to consider these explanations. in the meantime, it doesn't hurt to keep looking. again, thnx to those who've given their valuable time to my search.

if you have other pertinent information/opinions, i'd love to hear them.

bolorhaig
Kaldric
08-28-07, 03:48 AM There's no official 3.5 or 3.0 rule that allows ranged flanking, apart from the Whisperknife PRC.

Do a search for "ranged flanking" on Google and you'll find tons of discussion/argument as to why it would be cool to allow it in certain circumstances, etc. No rules from Wizards, though, as far as I can tell.
Bolorhaig
08-28-07, 04:39 AM LOL i've never considered a google search for a d&d topic. i'm going to try it just to see what happens.

i use a ranged flanking rule already when i gm, and have been for about 4 yrs now. thing is, i've recently become interested in LOCATING the rule i think i read some time ago but have been unable thus far to do so.

again, this could very well be a case of false memory, or it may be some odd variant i picked up in like a mongoose supplement or something and ascribed to an official publication over time.

bolorhaig
heffroncm
08-28-07, 11:57 AM Well, you have to think about what "flanking" actually is in the game. It isn't just being on opposite sides of a creature. It's forcing said creature to split it's focus, divide it's attention in two ways when it can't watch both ways at once. Remember that each attack you roll for is supposed to be an abstract of anumber of feints, parries, and dodges. Keeping that up with someone on opposite sides of you is what leaves you more open to attack. A guy with a bow 20 feet away doesn't cause the same sort of movement or opening.
Marcus Majarra
08-28-07, 12:24 PM again, this could very well be a case of false memory, or it may be some odd variant i picked up in like a mongoose supplement or something and ascribed to an official publication over time.
This is more likely (although I'm not familiar with Mongoose material). The truth is, you cannot work ranged flanking without seriously reworking flanking rules in general, since you need to threaten a creature's square in order to flank it, and threat rules require that you be able to make a melee attack into the square in question (hence the contradiction).

If you want as official a solution as possible, look to Races of the Wild and read up on the Whisperknife PrC. It gets to flank with ranged weapons at 10 feet.
CrippleMrOnion
08-29-07, 07:54 AM I'm afraid that this is indeed a false memory, though it could have been triggered by Neverwinter Nights, if that's a game you played. In NWN, a rogue could get Sneak Attack against an opponent who was engaged in melee with an ally. However, in 3.0 and 3.5 D&D flanking is specifically limited to melee, as the definition specifies in the index of the PH. Only exceptions to this base rule (like whisperknife) would change that, and you're not looking for exceptions, you're looking for the base rule. I can guarantee you that your search is for naught. Check the online srd and search for any mention of flanking. All of the core rules are there; you won't find what you're looking for.

Blame NWN. It messed up a lot of future players who got interested in PnP D&D due to playing it because its rules system was screwy.
Bolorhaig
08-31-07, 04:31 AM lol since i never played nwn, that game prob had nothing to do w/this question. it was definitely something i read.

regardless of whether i find it (or if it even exists in official, unofficial, core, or variant form), i must disagree w/marcus' argument that the flanking rules would have to be seriously recast in order to include ranged flanking.

i use a ranged flank option in my games now, and have for some years (lol ever since the imaginary rule i read). it's simple, has never caused a moment's confusion or argument, and required that we re-work nothing.

since this is a gm's forum, i'll share.

in my games, ranged attackers gain flanking bonus in largely the same way an attacker w/reach gains it. draw a line from the center of the attacker's square to the center of the defender's. the side from which this line enters the defender's square is the side from which flanking is determined. if the ranged attacker has an ally on a square side opposite this one, and that ally threatens the defender w/a melee attack, the attacker gains flanking bonus.

this does not give the flanking bonus to the melee-ing ally. only the ranged attacker can gain this benefit, and only in the situation specified above.

so far, we haven't had any probs w/this. it adds wonderful flexibility to the rogue's fighting options, instead of forcing the char to expose herself to an often crushing full-round attack by a foe who's just suffered umpteen dice of sneak damage from the rogue's proximity. in practice, furthermore, it hasn't proven more of a detriment to the party than to the bad guys.

thnx again for those who've participated in this discussion. i'm not saying you're wrong, but i'm still looking! :)

bolorhaig
Roxlimn
08-31-07, 05:45 AM The Arrow Mind spell allows you to threaten within 5 feet as a Medium creature and 10 feet as a Large creature (and so on). page 143, Complete Adventurer.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bolorhaig 08-27-07, 03:11 AM	howdy all i distinctly remember reading an optional rule for ranged attackers whereby they can gain flanking benefits vs a target IF the ranged attacker has a flanking ally in melee on the other side of the target. BUT I CAN'T FIND IT!!!!! plz help me locate this rule. it was prob in a 3.0 publication, and it was definitely in an official book. plz don't bother directing my attention to the optional ranger flanking ability from PHB2. that's not it. bolorhaig
Voidboy 08-27-07, 03:22 AM	Maybe none of it is what you are looking for. I. Distracting attack (replaces animal companion for rangers, PHB II.) In tha case YOU grant the flanking benefits to others, so that is out. II. Whisperknife PRC from Races of the Wild, gains ranged flanking (10') at 9th level.
Bolorhaig 08-27-07, 04:37 AM	though i appreciate your effort and speedy reply to my post, i did specifically mention that i'm not interested in the ranger ability from PHB2. "plz don't bother directing my attention to the optional ranger flanking ability from PHB2. that's not it." it's not that i'm LOOKING for the ability to gain flanking w/range attacks. it's that i'm looking for a rule that i once read that allows anyone to do so. still looking... bolorhaig
deduke 08-27-07, 08:10 AM	Its in the 3.0 phb in the combat chapter. Ranged flanking was dropped in 3.5
Bolorhaig 08-27-07, 03:30 PM	i'm sorry to be difficult, but can you be more specific about the location of the ranged flanking rule in 3.0 PHB? i'm sitting here w/the book open to the combat chapter (8) in front of me and can't find it. thnx bolorhaig
Salla 08-27-07, 05:05 PM	Other than a handful of spells or Prestige Class abilities, it is (and always has been) impossible to flank with ranged weapons in D&D 3rd Edition, 3.0 or 3.5. This is because you do not normally threaten with a ranged weapon, and threatening is a requirement for flanking.
Bolorhaig 08-27-07, 06:24 PM	again i must apologize for contradicting someone who's trying to help, but there was something that i read that allowed for ranged sneak attack vs a target w/a melee ally on the other side from the range attacker. i remember reading it; we've always used it in our game; another GM has asked me about it, and i'm trying to locate the rule for him. i simply can't remember where it was. it's not 3.0 PHB or DMG, nor can i find it in any of the 3.0 class-based supplements (sword n fist, song n silence, etc). i do remember that some copies of the 3.0 PHB and DMG had inserts in the back - FAQs, more detailed explanations of combat maneuvering, etc. i'm wondering if it was in one of those. i no longer have the inserts in my books. bolorhaig
Marcus Majarra 08-27-07, 08:40 PM	The kind of rule you're looking for is not a core rule. In fact, it was never even suggested as a variant rule. Ranged flanking is a powerful ability to have.
StevenO 08-27-07, 08:54 PM	You may remember it but I think you are definitely in the minority there. Something as big as flanking at range is something people with any interest in sneak attack would remember and they'd also keep track of the source for just the situation you are involved in.
Bolorhaig 08-28-07, 02:17 AM	marcus and steven, you raise an interesting point though one not precisely pertinent to my search. i've posted this same search request elsewhere, and many others have commented that it was "fortunate" that ranged flanking never entered the game (at least certainly not in 3.5). the point you raise that IS pertinent to my search, and one that i'm disappointed to have to consider, is the lack of memory of this rule on the part of any other gamer replying so far. i've always been 1st to admit this was a rule variant that i'm remembering, but i was 100% certain (and am still 75% certain) that i'd read it in an official publication. perhaps i misread something a few years ago, and it cemented in my memory as this ghost rule? perhaps the sample of gamers who've replied thus far isn't quite large enough to consider it as representative of the memory of all 3.0 d&d players in general? perhaps i read it in some obscure splat book and, after adopting it for my own game, came to believe it was an officially published variant? i'm willing to consider these explanations. in the meantime, it doesn't hurt to keep looking. again, thnx to those who've given their valuable time to my search. if you have other pertinent information/opinions, i'd love to hear them. bolorhaig
Kaldric 08-28-07, 03:48 AM	There's no official 3.5 or 3.0 rule that allows ranged flanking, apart from the Whisperknife PRC. Do a search for "ranged flanking" on Google and you'll find tons of discussion/argument as to why it would be cool to allow it in certain circumstances, etc. No rules from Wizards, though, as far as I can tell.
Bolorhaig 08-28-07, 04:39 AM	LOL i've never considered a google search for a d&d topic. i'm going to try it just to see what happens. i use a ranged flanking rule already when i gm, and have been for about 4 yrs now. thing is, i've recently become interested in LOCATING the rule i think i read some time ago but have been unable thus far to do so. again, this could very well be a case of false memory, or it may be some odd variant i picked up in like a mongoose supplement or something and ascribed to an official publication over time. bolorhaig
heffroncm 08-28-07, 11:57 AM	Well, you have to think about what "flanking" actually is in the game. It isn't just being on opposite sides of a creature. It's forcing said creature to split it's focus, divide it's attention in two ways when it can't watch both ways at once. Remember that each attack you roll for is supposed to be an abstract of anumber of feints, parries, and dodges. Keeping that up with someone on opposite sides of you is what leaves you more open to attack. A guy with a bow 20 feet away doesn't cause the same sort of movement or opening.
Marcus Majarra 08-28-07, 12:24 PM	again, this could very well be a case of false memory, or it may be some odd variant i picked up in like a mongoose supplement or something and ascribed to an official publication over time. This is more likely (although I'm not familiar with Mongoose material). The truth is, you cannot work ranged flanking without seriously reworking flanking rules in general, since you need to threaten a creature's square in order to flank it, and threat rules require that you be able to make a melee attack into the square in question (hence the contradiction). If you want as official a solution as possible, look to Races of the Wild and read up on the Whisperknife PrC. It gets to flank with ranged weapons at 10 feet.
CrippleMrOnion 08-29-07, 07:54 AM	I'm afraid that this is indeed a false memory, though it could have been triggered by Neverwinter Nights, if that's a game you played. In NWN, a rogue could get Sneak Attack against an opponent who was engaged in melee with an ally. However, in 3.0 and 3.5 D&D flanking is specifically limited to melee, as the definition specifies in the index of the PH. Only exceptions to this base rule (like whisperknife) would change that, and you're not looking for exceptions, you're looking for the base rule. I can guarantee you that your search is for naught. Check the online srd and search for any mention of flanking. All of the core rules are there; you won't find what you're looking for. Blame NWN. It messed up a lot of future players who got interested in PnP D&D due to playing it because its rules system was screwy.
Bolorhaig 08-31-07, 04:31 AM	lol since i never played nwn, that game prob had nothing to do w/this question. it was definitely something i read. regardless of whether i find it (or if it even exists in official, unofficial, core, or variant form), i must disagree w/marcus' argument that the flanking rules would have to be seriously recast in order to include ranged flanking. i use a ranged flank option in my games now, and have for some years (lol ever since the imaginary rule i read). it's simple, has never caused a moment's confusion or argument, and required that we re-work nothing. since this is a gm's forum, i'll share. in my games, ranged attackers gain flanking bonus in largely the same way an attacker w/reach gains it. draw a line from the center of the attacker's square to the center of the defender's. the side from which this line enters the defender's square is the side from which flanking is determined. if the ranged attacker has an ally on a square side opposite this one, and that ally threatens the defender w/a melee attack, the attacker gains flanking bonus. this does not give the flanking bonus to the melee-ing ally. only the ranged attacker can gain this benefit, and only in the situation specified above. so far, we haven't had any probs w/this. it adds wonderful flexibility to the rogue's fighting options, instead of forcing the char to expose herself to an often crushing full-round attack by a foe who's just suffered umpteen dice of sneak damage from the rogue's proximity. in practice, furthermore, it hasn't proven more of a detriment to the party than to the bad guys. thnx again for those who've participated in this discussion. i'm not saying you're wrong, but i'm still looking! :) bolorhaig
Roxlimn 08-31-07, 05:45 AM	The Arrow Mind spell allows you to threaten within 5 feet as a Medium creature and 10 feet as a Large creature (and so on). page 143, Complete Adventurer.