Changing state of awareness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing state of awareness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drag0nUL
10-30-07, 11:18 AM The question I am about to ask you has stirred quite a debate between my friends recently, and so far I(or anybody else) haven't been able to find anything 100% clear within the rules:

Can you become aware of an opponent during his turn? Or the state of awareness changes only on your turn? To be more specific, here are 2 examples:

A. A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round?

B. A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round?
Hacktor
10-30-07, 11:38 AM Quote:

A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round?

End Quote:

What about 2 rogues? after one attacks the other can't attack because the target is no longer flat footed (aware)..

I think there are times when a character is Aware But still Flat Footed... aka being chained to a tree :D ... So the swiftness of the attacks leaves the target verry aware and verry flatfooted.. :P

As for B: ... i think that even if the 3d orc is willing to hide or not.. he is hiding as long as the human is concerned ...
as long as the 3'd orc did all this in one round it means he was fast enough to hit the flat footed Ac ..if he is slugish or otherwise takes more time.. it happens on the following round and then the target is aware :P
ShadowChemosh
10-30-07, 01:49 PM The question I am about to ask you has stirred quite a debate between my friends recently, and so far I(or anybody else) haven't been able to find anything 100% clear within the rules:

Can you become aware of an opponent during his turn? Or the state of awareness changes only on your turn? To be more specific, here are 2 examples:

See my answers below, but basically your state of awareness is based on your opposed spot/listen rolls. If you fail these then you must wait for your next action to change your state, but you can have different states against different foes. You could be aware of one rogue, but not a 2nd one that is hiding deeper in the shadows.

A. A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round?

The rogue can sneak attack as long as all his attacks meet the prerequisite for sneak attack. One of those is the person being flat-footed by surprise or if the rogue goes before the foe in the first round of combat. So assuming its a surprise round all the rogues attacks(even ranged if within 30ft) are all sneak attacks. Regardless if the rogue gets one attack or six. On top of this if the rogue's init is higher then the 'foe' in the first round of combat the rogue can again sneak attack with multiple attacks, because until the foes init number comes up he is still considered flat-footed.

B. A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round?
You didn't say the orc was attempting to move/hide so the fighter has to make a DC 0 spot check which for all purposes means he makes it automatically. So he is NOT surprised by the orc so the orc attacks the non-flat footed AC(ie full AC) of the fighter.

Now if the orc had been attempting to move silently(because the wall would block line of sight) then the fighter would have to make a listen check vs the orc. In this case the orc would be moving at half-speed and if the fighter failed his opposed roll then the orc would get to attack the fighters flat-footed ac.

Hope this helps.
Hacktor
10-30-07, 02:40 PM The rogue can sneak attack as long as all his attacks meet the prerequisite for sneak attack. One of those is the person being flat-footed by surprise or if the rogue goes before the foe in the first round of combat. So assuming its a surprise round all the rogues attacks(even ranged if within 30ft) are all sneak attacks. Regardless if the rogue gets one attack or six. On top of this if the rogue's init is higher then the 'foe' in the first round of combat the rogue can again sneak attack with multiple attacks, because until the foes init number comes up he is still considered flat-footed.

Now if the orc had been attempting to move silently(because the wall would block line of sight) then the fighter would have to make a listen check vs the orc. In this case the orc would be moving at half-speed and if the fighter failed his opposed roll then the orc would get to attack the fighters flat-footed ac.

1: So if a rogue enters combat from hiding... His foe is considered flatfooted until the first round in witch he acknowledges the rogue passes? So between the two combatants, Rogue and victim it's the first round of combat, only they are not restricted to partial actions ..right?...

I didn't know what happened if the rogue, in the 5-th round of combat emerges from hiding and full attacks an enemy using more than 1 attack.. Does he or not sneak-atk with all of the attacks?

2: I totaly agree...
Phrennzy
10-30-07, 04:46 PM 1: So if a rogue enters combat from hiding... His foe is considered flatfooted until the first round in witch he acknowledges the rogue passes? So between the two combatants, Rogue and victim it's the first round of combat, only they are not restricted to partial actions ..right?...

I didn't know what happened if the rogue, in the 5-th round of combat emerges from hiding and full attacks an enemy using more than 1 attack.. Does he or not sneak-atk with all of the attacks?

2: I totaly agree...

If the opponent is considered flat footed against the rogue, every melee attack the rogue takes in that round against that opponent is considered a sneak attack.
Colmarr
10-30-07, 09:10 PM A. A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round?

Sneak attack is determined by two conditions: flat-footedness and denial of dex bonus to armour.

You only lose flat-footed status after you have had a chance to act in combat, so a rogue can get a full-sneak-attack against flat-footed opponents in the right circumstances.

Denial of dexterity bonus is trickier. The general rule is that hidden creatures count as invisible (thus denying the defender their dex bonus to AC). However, once the rogue attacks he or she becomes visible unless they can make the hide check to once again return to hidden status. There is a very long and complicated discussion of that issue in the FAQ (dealing with a ranger and Hide in Plain Sight) and I'd recommended you check it out. As a general rule though, a rogue is highly unlikely to be able to pull off a full-sneak-attack this way unless his or her opponent is flat-footed.

B. A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round?

As I mentioned above, you lose flat-footed status once you act in combat so the fighter does not go back to that status (there are one or two exceptions but none that arise in your example). If the orc successfully hides and moves silently, he may qualify for the "invisible attacker" effect and deny the fighter his dex bonus to AC.

Note, however, that that is not the same as being flat-footed.
Marcus Majarra
10-31-07, 03:14 AM First things first: avoid the term "awareness" as it has a specific meaning with respect to initiative and surprise rounds.

A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round?
Your scenario doesn't exist. Per PHB78, hiding after attacking (i.e. sniping) requires that you spend a move action to hide after you attack. As such, you cannot execute a full attack in this scenario. If the observer beats the sniper's Hide check (with the -20 penalty for sniping), the sniper is no longer hidden and is visible to the observer.

A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round?
Against the fighter's full AC. Unless the new orc was somehow hidden from the fighter, the fighter has seen him coming.

So if a rogue enters combat from hiding... His foe is considered flatfooted until the first round in witch he acknowledges the rogue passes? So between the two combatants, Rogue and victim it's the first round of combat, only they are not restricted to partial actions ..right?...

I didn't know what happened if the rogue, in the 5-th round of combat emerges from hiding and full attacks an enemy using more than 1 attack.. Does he or not sneak-atk with all of the attacks?
First off, the opponent is not flat-footed because the rogue is hiding. Because the rogue is hiding, his opponent cannot see him, and is thus denied his Dex bonus to AC. Second, once the rogue attacks, unless the rogue uses a move action to hide after attacking, his opponent can see him. Furthermore, there is only one surprise round in combat: at the very beginning. No other surprise rounds exist, even if new opponents enter the fray.
1 ton ghost
11-01-07, 03:00 PM you can't Full-Attack anyway is the target is unaware pre-initiative.
that is a Surprise Round i believe.
basically, if one party has made a Spot on the other and that "other party" hasn't reciprocated, then you are primed for a Surprise Round.

-you get 1 Standard Action vs. surprised party, ie)1 attack, not a Full-Attack
after the attack is resolved, yeah, typically, they are no longer "unaware" to which you resolve initiative normally...then, and only then, if the rogue is first, yes, he make Full (Sneak) Attack assuming he beat enemy's init score.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drag0nUL 10-30-07, 11:18 AM	The question I am about to ask you has stirred quite a debate between my friends recently, and so far I(or anybody else) haven't been able to find anything 100% clear within the rules: Can you become aware of an opponent during his turn? Or the state of awareness changes only on your turn? To be more specific, here are 2 examples: A. A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round? B. A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round?
Hacktor 10-30-07, 11:38 AM	Quote: A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round? End Quote: What about 2 rogues? after one attacks the other can't attack because the target is no longer flat footed (aware).. I think there are times when a character is Aware But still Flat Footed... aka being chained to a tree :D ... So the swiftness of the attacks leaves the target verry aware and verry flatfooted.. :P As for B: ... i think that even if the 3d orc is willing to hide or not.. he is hiding as long as the human is concerned ... as long as the 3'd orc did all this in one round it means he was fast enough to hit the flat footed Ac ..if he is slugish or otherwise takes more time.. it happens on the following round and then the target is aware :P
ShadowChemosh 10-30-07, 01:49 PM	The question I am about to ask you has stirred quite a debate between my friends recently, and so far I(or anybody else) haven't been able to find anything 100% clear within the rules: Can you become aware of an opponent during his turn? Or the state of awareness changes only on your turn? To be more specific, here are 2 examples: See my answers below, but basically your state of awareness is based on your opposed spot/listen rolls. If you fail these then you must wait for your next action to change your state, but you can have different states against different foes. You could be aware of one rogue, but not a 2nd one that is hiding deeper in the shadows. A. A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round? The rogue can sneak attack as long as all his attacks meet the prerequisite for sneak attack. One of those is the person being flat-footed by surprise or if the rogue goes before the foe in the first round of combat. So assuming its a surprise round all the rogues attacks(even ranged if within 30ft) are all sneak attacks. Regardless if the rogue gets one attack or six. On top of this if the rogue's init is higher then the 'foe' in the first round of combat the rogue can again sneak attack with multiple attacks, because until the foes init number comes up he is still considered flat-footed. B. A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round? You didn't say the orc was attempting to move/hide so the fighter has to make a DC 0 spot check which for all purposes means he makes it automatically. So he is NOT surprised by the orc so the orc attacks the non-flat footed AC(ie full AC) of the fighter. Now if the orc had been attempting to move silently(because the wall would block line of sight) then the fighter would have to make a listen check vs the orc. In this case the orc would be moving at half-speed and if the fighter failed his opposed roll then the orc would get to attack the fighters flat-footed ac. Hope this helps.
Hacktor 10-30-07, 02:40 PM	The rogue can sneak attack as long as all his attacks meet the prerequisite for sneak attack. One of those is the person being flat-footed by surprise or if the rogue goes before the foe in the first round of combat. So assuming its a surprise round all the rogues attacks(even ranged if within 30ft) are all sneak attacks. Regardless if the rogue gets one attack or six. On top of this if the rogue's init is higher then the 'foe' in the first round of combat the rogue can again sneak attack with multiple attacks, because until the foes init number comes up he is still considered flat-footed. Now if the orc had been attempting to move silently(because the wall would block line of sight) then the fighter would have to make a listen check vs the orc. In this case the orc would be moving at half-speed and if the fighter failed his opposed roll then the orc would get to attack the fighters flat-footed ac. 1: So if a rogue enters combat from hiding... His foe is considered flatfooted until the first round in witch he acknowledges the rogue passes? So between the two combatants, Rogue and victim it's the first round of combat, only they are not restricted to partial actions ..right?... I didn't know what happened if the rogue, in the 5-th round of combat emerges from hiding and full attacks an enemy using more than 1 attack.. Does he or not sneak-atk with all of the attacks? 2: I totaly agree...
Phrennzy 10-30-07, 04:46 PM	1: So if a rogue enters combat from hiding... His foe is considered flatfooted until the first round in witch he acknowledges the rogue passes? So between the two combatants, Rogue and victim it's the first round of combat, only they are not restricted to partial actions ..right?... I didn't know what happened if the rogue, in the 5-th round of combat emerges from hiding and full attacks an enemy using more than 1 attack.. Does he or not sneak-atk with all of the attacks? 2: I totaly agree... If the opponent is considered flat footed against the rogue, every melee attack the rogue takes in that round against that opponent is considered a sneak attack.
Colmarr 10-30-07, 09:10 PM	A. A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round? Sneak attack is determined by two conditions: flat-footedness and denial of dex bonus to armour. You only lose flat-footed status after you have had a chance to act in combat, so a rogue can get a full-sneak-attack against flat-footed opponents in the right circumstances. Denial of dexterity bonus is trickier. The general rule is that hidden creatures count as invisible (thus denying the defender their dex bonus to AC). However, once the rogue attacks he or she becomes visible unless they can make the hide check to once again return to hidden status. There is a very long and complicated discussion of that issue in the FAQ (dealing with a ranger and Hide in Plain Sight) and I'd recommended you check it out. As a general rule though, a rogue is highly unlikely to be able to pull off a full-sneak-attack this way unless his or her opponent is flat-footed. B. A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round? As I mentioned above, you lose flat-footed status once you act in combat so the fighter does not go back to that status (there are one or two exceptions but none that arise in your example). If the orc successfully hides and moves silently, he may qualify for the "invisible attacker" effect and deny the fighter his dex bonus to AC. Note, however, that that is not the same as being flat-footed.
Marcus Majarra 10-31-07, 03:14 AM	First things first: avoid the term "awareness" as it has a specific meaning with respect to initiative and surprise rounds. A hidden rogue uses full attack on a foe. After the first attack does the foe become aware of the rogue(due to the -20 hide penalty for hiding while attacking), therefore denying him additional sneak attacks? Or is he considered unaware for the whole round? Your scenario doesn't exist. Per PHB78, hiding after attacking (i.e. sniping) requires that you spend a move action to hide after you attack. As such, you cannot execute a full attack in this scenario. If the observer beats the sniper's Hide check (with the -20 penalty for sniping), the sniper is no longer hidden and is visible to the observer. A fighter is fighting let's say 2 orcs. In the 3rd round of combat, a 3rd orc comes form around the corner, walks up to the fighter and hits him. Against what AC is the orc rolling? Full AC because the fighter saw him coming? Or flat-footed AC because he was unaware of the orc at the start of the round? Against the fighter's full AC. Unless the new orc was somehow hidden from the fighter, the fighter has seen him coming. So if a rogue enters combat from hiding... His foe is considered flatfooted until the first round in witch he acknowledges the rogue passes? So between the two combatants, Rogue and victim it's the first round of combat, only they are not restricted to partial actions ..right?... I didn't know what happened if the rogue, in the 5-th round of combat emerges from hiding and full attacks an enemy using more than 1 attack.. Does he or not sneak-atk with all of the attacks? First off, the opponent is not flat-footed because the rogue is hiding. Because the rogue is hiding, his opponent cannot see him, and is thus denied his Dex bonus to AC. Second, once the rogue attacks, unless the rogue uses a move action to hide after attacking, his opponent can see him. Furthermore, there is only one surprise round in combat: at the very beginning. No other surprise rounds exist, even if new opponents enter the fray.
1 ton ghost 11-01-07, 03:00 PM	you can't Full-Attack anyway is the target is unaware pre-initiative. that is a Surprise Round i believe. basically, if one party has made a Spot on the other and that "other party" hasn't reciprocated, then you are primed for a Surprise Round. -you get 1 Standard Action vs. surprised party, ie)1 attack, not a Full-Attack after the attack is resolved, yeah, typically, they are no longer "unaware" to which you resolve initiative normally...then, and only then, if the rogue is first, yes, he make Full (Sneak) Attack assuming he beat enemy's init score.