Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM Aruthiat 07-07-07, 12:13 AM	Hopefully this is all the damage control I need. We are playing an Oriental Adventures campaign, and one of the Characters is a Kishi Charger (Think Cavalier) He also happesn to be a level 5 Iajitsu Master, and so adds his CHA mod to all damage rolls. The Damage breakdown is this: 13+10+63+50+33+4+6+5 In Order: str dmg, power attack, iajustu cha to dmg, war master charge, iajustu dice, lance, fire and ice enchantment Does all of this stack in a Deadly Charge's x4 Multiplier? Please somoene say it doesnt because that damage comes in excess of 730 damage....
Anathema 07-07-07, 02:43 AM	Ok .. first problem. An Iaijutsu Master does not add their CHA bonus to every damage die. They add their CHA bonus to every bonus damage die granted when they succeed on an Iaijutsu Focus check. You can only make an Iaijutsu Focus check in the same round you draw your weapon and make an attack against a flat-footed opponent. As an example; an Iaijutsu Focus check that scored a 27 will grant +4d6 damage, so he would add four times his CHA bonus (one for each bonus die). Second; their bonus damage dice from Iaijutsu Focus would not apply on a charge without the Quick Draw feat, because otherwise you cannot charge and fit the requirements to make an Iaijutsu Focus check (in which you must draw your weapon in the same round you attack a flat-footed opponent). Thirdly; you don't "draw" a lance, so it's not even subject to Iaijutsu Focus to begin with. Even though there's no specific wording that says you don't "draw" a lance, I would say this is a clear violation of the spirit of the skill (which is meant to draw and attack with a katana in a single strike). Fourth; you mention a "war master charge". What is this? Finally; damage from enchantments such as fire & ice would not be multiplied in a critical. The bonus damage from Iaijutsu Focus can also be considered a 'precise strike' (such as sneak attack), if you wish; but used properly I don't see how enough legal Iaijutsu Focus checks would be used to make it unbalancing to allow it to gain a bonus from criticals. Looking over the equipment chart, I don't see a single weapon with a crit bonus over x2 that you would 'draw', as the spirit of Iaijutsu Focus implies. Hope this helps.
DM Aruthiat 07-07-07, 02:53 AM	Well here he got a 9d6 total on Iajistsu, I did not specify, my bad. 9x7 (his CHA mod) gives us the 63 we saw. The player argues that the rules do not state that you cannot "Draw" a lance, but as said, thats a matter of flavor Right, elemental damage is not applied to a charge War Masters Charge is a manuever from Tome of Battle, it adds 50 damage on a charge. So, apart from ruling that Iajistsu is precision based, I dont see any way out of the situation!
Anathema 07-07-07, 03:41 AM	Yes. The first thing you do is assert your DM authority and tell him that he does not draw a lance! It doesn't matter if it can be argued that there's no specific text that says you don't "draw" a lance. There won't be, because it's common sense. You can't even argue that it's sheathed like an axe might be. Second. In order to get 9d6 bonus damage on an Iaijutsu Focus check he would have to score over 50(!) on his IF check. How does he get such a high check? Even at 24th minimum level (see below) this would be quite difficult. (EDIT: Not to mention there would still be a 20 point variance; meaning even with +30 to his IF check his bonus range would be 5d6-9d6, not 9d6 every time) While I'm here, how did he get 24-25 Charisma in order to get a +7 CHA mod in the first place, especially without wrecking his other stats? Third .. even if you rule that he draws a lance (I don't know why you would), without the Quick Draw feat he cannot charge and use Iaijutsu Focus in the same round, period. As far as War Master's Charge goes .. he'd have to be a 17th level Crusader or Warblade. :thinks: .. and in either case he would only be able to use War Master's Charge once per battle. I don't see any reason why this damage would not multiply on a critical, despite being quite a large initial number at 200. EDIT: Reading over 'Deadly Charge' and 'War Master's Charge' I would say they cannot be used together. To use 'Deadly Charge' you must use a Charge action. When you initiate the maneuver War Master's Charge, then you charge as part of this maneuver; you are charging, but you are not using the Charge Action. This guy has to be at least 24th level to be legal just by the abilities you've quoted. I really would recommend against running a game at this high of a level, especially mixing 3.0 content (Oriental Adventures) with 3.5 (Tome of Battle). I highly suspect that there's a lot more amiss that you haven't questioned yet. I cannot stress enough the importance of playing simple games if you don't have a huge grasp on the rules and aren't willing to put your foot down about whether a player draws a lance or not (especially when it's obviously unbalancing and not in the spirit of the ability he's trying to use). That goes double DM'ing for a player that's trying to get all of this over on you. Sorry for all the edits. There's a lot of mish-mash here to get through.
DM Aruthiat 07-07-07, 04:33 AM	Iajistsu Check was accomplished with 16 ranks, a +7 mod to CHA, a +10 item to Iajitsu, and skill focus (though yes, he did indeed roll quite high) Quick Answer-He wrecked his other abilities. Isn't anyone easier to mind control around for miles ;) He has Quick Draw, though I do agree, it does seem kind of "odd" to draw a lance. I would assume it would be more like "pulling up from the spot it was hanign from" or some such thing. The player argues that he can use the Martial Training or whatever that feat is called to get the manuvers he needs. I am showed a 2 manuever and 2 stance build for the prequisites to use the Warmasters Charge, his 3rd and final manuver granted from that feat. However, I agree that they cannot be used together, as the actions involved would equal two full round actions, something I am weak at noticing ( I only learned recently how that actually works, the whole action stacking thing) Im not sure why you say he has to be 24th level, but thats alright. Truth be told he wrecked all but STR and CHA, and threw all his money into a few big things. He is what I would call a "munchkin power player" We have just recently incorporated Tome of Battle and I am still learning my way around it. However, I fully agree that "Drawing a lance" is neither balanced nor in flavor for the purpose of what the player is trying to do. However, what I lack the most is a sure fire way to tell the player "This is the way it goes" without sounding hypocritcal or such, as he is a friend, but a very testy friend. It might also have something to do with the fact that with Diamond Mind, the party Iajitsu Master is having a hey-day catching people flatfooted and throwing damage all over the place. Hope I didnt miss anything, haha.
Matthew77 07-07-07, 10:32 AM	I can address the war master's charge bit, as I am very familiar with the ToB. War master's charge is a level 9 maneuver. To use a level 9 maneuver, you must be a level 17 initiator. (just like you must be a level 17 spellcaster before you can cast a level 9 spell). Any non-martial adept class levels only count as half an initiator level. (anything other than Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, and the martial prestige classes) It appears that this character is getting his maneuvers soley from feats. Am I correct in assuming he doesn't have any actual martial adept levels? With no martial adept levels, the minimum level needed to use Warmaster's Charge is level 34. (level 34 non-martial adept = level 17 initiator, which is required to use a level 9 maneuver.) Also, this would require the investment of 5 feats, martial maneuver three times and martial stance twice. It sounded like your player said he got three maneuvers by taking the feat a single time, this is not correct.
Lilinthra 07-07-07, 10:33 AM	Matthew77 posted as I was typing this, but the latter paragraph can also help: I can help on the Bo9S part of this, but not Oriental Adventures. What is the character's level breakdown? The PC would need to be initiator level 17 for this manuever... the initiator level goes up by one for each level in a martial adept class and by two for levels in other classes. If he is gaining these by feats, it sounds like the PC is either very epic or can't take it yet. He is correct that stances and manuevers both count towards the prerequisite. Also, bonus damage from strikes is not multiplied on a critical hit unless the specific manuever says otherwise. That includes straight bonus damage like the +50 from Warmaster's Charge, not just manuevers that add bonus damage dice (see page 43).
Frugal 07-07-07, 10:56 AM	The player argues that he can use the Martial Training or whatever that feat is called to get the manuvers he needs. I am showed a 2 manuever and 2 stance build for the prequisites to use the Warmasters Charge, his 3rd and final manuver granted from that feat. However, I agree that they cannot be used together, as the actions involved would equal two full round actions, something I am weak at noticing ( I only learned recently how that actually works, the whole action stacking thing) War Master's Charge is a 9th level maneuver which means he needs at least an initiator level of 17 to learn it. You don't mention him having any classes from Tome of Battle (and using Martial Study seems to suggest he hasn't) so his initiator level is half his class level so he'd need to be level 34 to learn this maneuver. Also note that you can't take martial study to learn a stance, only maneuvers and that you can only take it 3 times. The prerequisites for War Master's Charge are 4 White Raven Maneuvers so it's not possible to learn that maneuver with Martial Study alone.
DM Aruthiat 07-07-07, 01:32 PM	Ah yes, I was wondering how the whole initiator level thing worked for non marital adept classes. To answer how he got the Warmasters charge he had 2 manuevars and 2 stances for a total of 4 manuevers for purposes of the prequisites, and then used his 3rd taking of the Martial Training feat thingy to get his charge. But since he isnt 34th level, thats moot point now :) So, with manuevars no longer an issue, the only problem that remains is the whole charging while iajitsuing thing, though I am pretty sure that is hardly tasteful. Anyone got a good wording to say "NO" with?
Anathema 07-07-07, 02:01 PM	The above posters covered Tome of Battle pretty well; better than I could. As they said, it is not possible to use War Master's Charge (which is a 9th level maneuver) without at least being 17th level of a class that's in the ToB. That plus the 5 levels (minimum) of Iaijutsu Master and 2 levels (minimum) of Kishi Charger got me to level 24. Maneuvers and Stances are two different things. A Stance cannot serve as a prerequisite for a Maneuver. I would say you can charge and use Iaijutsu Focus, if one had Quick Draw, but still that drawing a lance is an inappropriate use for this skill. Iaijutsu Focus and Iaijutsu Master both emphasize the use of a katana for this, and its implications are clear as to the intent of the skill & class. As long as you hold your other Iaijutsu Master to this same standard you are not being hypocritical. This is one of those times where the DM has to make a call because there is no specific text. If you want to say no you are within your rights to protect your game. If the player doesn't like it, then remind him that anything that you allow the players to do the NPC's also have access to. I find this gentle reminder encourages PC's to balance themselves, lest they find themselves on the business end of a charging Iaijutsu Master lance. Especially because the DM has access to fancy stuff like pounce that the players generally don't. .. and where did he get an item that granted +10 to his IF check? I didn't see anything in the OA book that granted anything like this.
Frugal 07-07-07, 02:16 PM	Just to give the specific quote, on p. 43 of Tome of Battle it says, "Stances: A stance is not a maneuver...." P. 39 clears up the info on initiator level and what initiator level you need to be to access a specific maneuver. The text for Martial Study also clearly states that if you don't have any classes that advance your initiator level that it's considered 1/2 your character level.
Lilinthra 07-07-07, 05:13 PM	Maneuvers and Stances are two different things. A Stance cannot serve as a prerequisite for a Maneuver. I wasn't sure which way that went before my first response, but found the answer in the last paragraph on page 43. Stances do count as manuevers for pre-requisites. I wish the book wasn't so back-and-forth on whether they are or aren't manuevers.
Anathema 07-07-07, 05:16 PM	I see where it says that now and that's incredibly counter-intuitive. Again I recommend against integrating 3.5 content with 3.0 content; clearly the ToB is confusing enough on its own.
Myzery78 07-07-07, 05:35 PM	Telling your player he cant "draw" a lance is rediculous and arbitrary. Drawing a weapon is simply the action of making it usable for combat, and the Iaijutsu Focus skill doesn't say anything about it having to be a bladed weapon. If you don't like your players use of his abilities(aside from the ones that were shown to be misued) then just tell him he has to retire the character, but dont try to hide behind flavor to gimp him. There are plenty of ways of dealing with this issue without removing the characters abilities. Put him in dungeons or places where charging is not an option(difficult terrain) or kill the mount hes on. Its common sense that a large horse is much easier to hit than a well trained soldier, and killing a horse often puts the rider in a difficult position(prone or injured).
Buggman 07-08-07, 09:25 PM	Telling your player he cant "draw" a lance is rediculous and arbitrary. Drawing a weapon is simply the action of making it usable for combat, and the Iaijutsu Focus skill doesn't say anything about it having to be a bladed weapon. If you don't like your players use of his abilities(aside from the ones that were shown to be misued) then just tell him he has to retire the character, but dont try to hide behind flavor to gimp him. Oi vey! Do you even know what iajitsu is? It's literally the art of drawing the sword (specifically, a katana--I'm not even sure you could do it with a straight blade properly). The idea is both moving with such fluidity as to catch the other person off-guard and using the very motion of drawing the sword and slashing it backhand across the body to hit a vital organ. You simply don't "draw" a lance in this way, nor do you slash it as you do a sword. It's not "gimping" a character to use a bit of common sense in how an ability is applied. Yes, the DM could just require the player to retire the character. Me, I'd first have refused to let the player use rules I wasn't fully conversant with--and if I did allow such use, I'd have a few wu-jen come along, control his mind, and use his abilities on the rest of the party before paralyzing him and cutting his throat, since he seems to have sacrificed everything else for the purpose of having the "ultimate attack."
Anathema 07-08-07, 09:44 PM	I'm glad someone else said it first. I never said you don't or can't 'draw' a lance per se (poor choice of words earlier I guess). I said that it was not within the spirit of the skill to allow the drawing of a lance to qualify. It is perfectly within the DM's purview to rule this way, especially as the skill specifically references katana (or similar) weapons. Suggesting that a decision like this is unreasonable sounds like the position of a player, not a DM; and frankly, getting so upset that someone might rule this way and maintain balance is bullish and domineering. A DM has every right to maintain the order and balance of their game, and to rule that a lance cannot apply for the Iaijutsu Focus skill, stating that it is not within the spirit of the skill to allow it.
Myzery78 07-09-07, 03:13 AM	Im sorry if my post came across as offensive, but the title of this forum is DM Rules Counseling and I made my post about the rules. You didnt need anyone but yourself to tell you that you could make a house rule to fix your issue, so I assumed you came here for advice about the rules. As far as the frequently mentioned katana Im not seeing one word about it in the skill description or of any specific type of weapon other than a melee weapon. Im looking at page 58-59 here so if you could direct me to where this other info is coming from it'd be helpful. By the way, I realize this post probably wont be any better received than the last one but for some reason I get the impression you're just trying to dismantle the character rather than talking with the problem PC and settling the issue in a mature fashion.
Leilond 07-09-07, 03:22 AM	Remember one very important rule Damage bonuses does multiply Bonus dices doesn't (sneak attack for example)
Nom 07-09-07, 10:31 AM	Note: if the ability states that the modifier applies to the bonus dice of damage then it won't multiply on a crit anyway. The bonus dice don't multiply so any ability tied to them can't multiply either.
danyc 07-09-07, 03:48 PM	Ultimately its your game so you have to decide what's OK and what's not. You can literally make any ruling you want, and if its for the sake of making the game more fun and balanced, and MOST of the players agree with it, its fine (its OK if one guy is upset that his super character isn't super, its probably not so good if your whole party is upset - then you need to talk to them about what they want to play). But there are several different issues at hand here. First, do you want to be mixing all of these rules? While I think that ToB sounds great for an OA game (maneuvers and stances are very thematic to Eastern Martial traditions), allowing something you don't understand is a bad idea. If you're allowing ToB, read it fully. That doesn't just mean the feats and maneuvers lists, either (which I bet your player went straight to without reading the rest). Next, decide what you want to do with Iaijutsu focus and the Iaijutsu related PrC. These are obviously very high profile in the OA ruleset, they're both 'cool' and powerful. Do you want the skill and the class to be for people who have decided to follow the role of the focused, skilled, Eastern duelist? Or do you want them to be the ultimate-answer in melee abilities. Do you want EVERYONE taking it? Or do you want people only taking it if it fits a very specific role and character theme. If you want it to be thematic and not attractive to -every- melee character, you should probably rule that it only works with appropriate weapons (decide which these are), and decide how often and under what circumstances it can be used. Per the rules, you can carry around 50 weapons and make Iaijutsu attacks all day long, but this is pretty retarded if you consider what the skill represented in history. Finally, this guy's character is clearly illegal. Explain the rules to him and work with him on remaking the character. While taking a martial class late in your progression, or the martial feats, can allow you to take higher-level abilities, they do not let you take -any- ability. You must still follow the guidelines of initiator level and prerequisite maneuvers.