Close quarters fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Close quarters fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Radijs
06-27-07, 08:35 AM One of my PC's has this feat from Complete Warrior and the short summary is:
"You can make an Attack Of Oppertunity when someone attempts a grapple despite Improved grab etc... and you gain the damage as a bonus on your check."

Now I was wondering what happens if a creature with reach starts a grapple. Since you can't make an AOO against someting you don't threaten.

Does anyone know the pure and simple truth?
Leilond
06-27-07, 08:39 AM One of my PC's has this feat from Complete Warrior and the short summary is:
"You can make an Attack Of Oppertunity when someone attempts a grapple despite Improved grab etc... and you gain the damage as a bonus on your check."

Now I was wondering what happens if a creature with reach starts a grapple. Since you can't make an AOO against someting you don't threaten.

Does anyone know the pure and simple truth?

By the RAW you cannot make an AoO against a square you don't threaten, so you cannot NEVER make an AoO in that situation, no matter if you have that feat, no matter if your opponent has not the "improved grapple feat"

REad this article
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a
Where you find

When You're Out of Reach

When no foes threaten you (that is, when you're not in any area that a foe threatens) you can get away with an action that normally provokes an attack of opportunity without actually provoking one. For example, if you have greater reach than your foe, you could try to sunder that foe's weapon or shield or disarm that foe without provoking an attack of opportunity provided that you stand outside the area the foe threatens while doing so.
runestar
06-27-07, 08:41 AM This is addressed in the FAQ.

If an enemy makes an attack against me that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat help at all?

Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you.

Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples.

If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you may make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).
Saric
06-27-07, 08:50 AM Runestar nailed it on the head. Its recommended that you let your pc use it, otherwise practically every single creature that is bigger than him and has reach that uses improved grab or grapples him will avoid the feat's ability and make it a "waste".

Besides, chopping off tentacles reaching for your legs evokes an exciting cinematic picture.
Leilond
06-27-07, 08:52 AM So we can say that strictly RAW you can do any AoO against a such foe, but a good "house rule" can be to let you do against those part of the enemy that must "enter your square" when making the action that provoke
Radijs
06-27-07, 09:30 AM Sounds fair. Only rather annoying that all the big hitters that work well with grappinling are going to be useless against him.
Leilond
06-27-07, 10:55 AM Sounds fair. Only rather annoying that all the big hitters that work well with grappinling are going to be useless against him.

I surely will do it too, it sound fair and reasonable
Anathema
06-27-07, 08:09 PM Sounds like a good house rule to me. Reach or not, if they're coming in to grapple you, they're within reach for some kind of attack.
runestar
06-27-07, 09:47 PM A popular analogy floating around here is the concept of "picking a cat up by its neck and watching it try to slash back at you".:D
WolfHati
06-28-07, 04:10 AM Most cats don't have polearms.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radijs 06-27-07, 08:35 AM	One of my PC's has this feat from Complete Warrior and the short summary is: "You can make an Attack Of Oppertunity when someone attempts a grapple despite Improved grab etc... and you gain the damage as a bonus on your check." Now I was wondering what happens if a creature with reach starts a grapple. Since you can't make an AOO against someting you don't threaten. Does anyone know the pure and simple truth?
Leilond 06-27-07, 08:39 AM	One of my PC's has this feat from Complete Warrior and the short summary is: "You can make an Attack Of Oppertunity when someone attempts a grapple despite Improved grab etc... and you gain the damage as a bonus on your check." Now I was wondering what happens if a creature with reach starts a grapple. Since you can't make an AOO against someting you don't threaten. Does anyone know the pure and simple truth? By the RAW you cannot make an AoO against a square you don't threaten, so you cannot NEVER make an AoO in that situation, no matter if you have that feat, no matter if your opponent has not the "improved grapple feat" REad this article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a Where you find When You're Out of Reach When no foes threaten you (that is, when you're not in any area that a foe threatens) you can get away with an action that normally provokes an attack of opportunity without actually provoking one. For example, if you have greater reach than your foe, you could try to sunder that foe's weapon or shield or disarm that foe without provoking an attack of opportunity provided that you stand outside the area the foe threatens while doing so.
runestar 06-27-07, 08:41 AM	This is addressed in the FAQ. If an enemy makes an attack against me that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as a disarm or grapple attempt), do I get the attack of opportunity if I can’t reach him? Would the Close-Quarters Fighting feat help at all? Strictly speaking, if you don’t threaten an enemy, you can’t make attacks of opportunity against that enemy. Thus, if an ogre tried to sunder your elf’s longsword from 10 feet away, you wouldn’t get an attack of opportunity against the ogre (since an elf wielding a longsword doesn’t threaten an enemy 10 feet away). This is true even if the ogre is reaching out with his hand, such as when trying to grapple you. Even the Close-Quarters Fighting feat doesn’t help, since that feat applies only when the attack of opportunity against a grappling foe normally would be denied by “a feat or special ability that would normally bypass the attack” and lists Improved Grapple and improved grab as examples. If, as DM, this bothers your sensibilities and you and your players are willing to bend the letter of the rules a bit, consider the following house rule that the Sage has used in his games in the past: If a foe would provoke an attack of opportunity with any action that brings him (or something he holds) into contact with you or your space, you may make an attack of opportunity against the foe (or the object he holds, if that’s what’s contacting you). This means that an ogre trying to initiate a grapple would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make against the ogre (since his hand and arm are clearly coming within your reach to grab you), while the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt).
Saric 06-27-07, 08:50 AM	Runestar nailed it on the head. Its recommended that you let your pc use it, otherwise practically every single creature that is bigger than him and has reach that uses improved grab or grapples him will avoid the feat's ability and make it a "waste". Besides, chopping off tentacles reaching for your legs evokes an exciting cinematic picture.
Leilond 06-27-07, 08:52 AM	So we can say that strictly RAW you can do any AoO against a such foe, but a good "house rule" can be to let you do against those part of the enemy that must "enter your square" when making the action that provoke
Radijs 06-27-07, 09:30 AM	Sounds fair. Only rather annoying that all the big hitters that work well with grappinling are going to be useless against him.
Leilond 06-27-07, 10:55 AM	Sounds fair. Only rather annoying that all the big hitters that work well with grappinling are going to be useless against him. I surely will do it too, it sound fair and reasonable
Anathema 06-27-07, 08:09 PM	Sounds like a good house rule to me. Reach or not, if they're coming in to grapple you, they're within reach for some kind of attack.
runestar 06-27-07, 09:47 PM	A popular analogy floating around here is the concept of "picking a cat up by its neck and watching it try to slash back at you".:D
WolfHati 06-28-07, 04:10 AM	Most cats don't have polearms.