Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Angus Cotton
11-20-07, 06:36 PM The Combat Expertise feat and Fighting Defensively both take away from your 'to hit' and add a dodge bonus to your AC. Technically, they stack, but there is almost no situation where you would want both up at the same time--if you take the time to take a minus to hit, you would almost always want to use the better ratio from Combat Expertise than from Fighting Defensively. This leads me to my question.

There are a lot of feats out there that state as their catalyst the phrase, "If Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense, you gain...". To give a few examples, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Defense, Graceful Edge, Active Shield Defense, Vault, Combat Cloak Expert, Defensive Opportunist, Defensive Strike, Spinning Defense all have something similiar if not exactly the same as the above qualifying statement. The latter three I mention even have Combat Expertise as a prereq. So, my question is, can Combat Expertise be used in replacement of Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense in order to activate these other feats? Maybe even in a sort of virtual feat capacity? Is this addressed anywhere?

If the answer is 'yes, it can be substituted', then how much minus to 'to hit' is necessary to activate the above list of feats? Would even a -1 on Combat Expertise active Vault for example?

If the answer is 'no, Combat Expertise can not be substituted for Fighting Defensively or Total Defense', well, to me, that seems kind of stupid considering the point I make in my first paragraph.

Update: And sense we are on the subject, what about the Elaborate Parry of a Duelist? can Combat Expertise be subbed for that?
Bopple
11-20-07, 07:16 PM No, you cannot substitute Combat Reflexes for Fighting Defensively or simiar.
Why? Because the rule does not say you can.
Angus Cotton
11-20-07, 07:25 PM No, you cannot substitute Combat Reflexes for Fighting Defensively or simiar.
Why? Because the rule does not say you can.

er....don't you mean, Combat Expertise not Combat Reflexes?
Bopple
11-20-07, 07:28 PM Oops, yeah, right.
Marcus Majarra
11-20-07, 11:06 PM Generally, when an ability allows you to substitute the use of Combat Expertise for fighting defensively (it occurs on a semi-regular basis), it will state so explicitly. As Bopple mentioned, the two are not intrinsically interchangeable. As a matter of fact, they're even stackable.
StevenO
11-20-07, 11:44 PM As noted Combat Expertise does not generally substitute for anything requiring one the Fight Defensively. A few newer abilitys do let one use either Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively but in these cases the CE penalty needs to be -2 (or maybe it's -4 I don't remember for certain) so CE at least mirrors some aspect of FD.

There certainly are times you'd use both Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. Under normal conditions you'll take the 1:1 benefit for CE but that maxes out at +5 (another feat removes that cap) so one adds fighting defensively as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Angus Cotton 11-20-07, 06:36 PM	The Combat Expertise feat and Fighting Defensively both take away from your 'to hit' and add a dodge bonus to your AC. Technically, they stack, but there is almost no situation where you would want both up at the same time--if you take the time to take a minus to hit, you would almost always want to use the better ratio from Combat Expertise than from Fighting Defensively. This leads me to my question. There are a lot of feats out there that state as their catalyst the phrase, "If Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense, you gain...". To give a few examples, Two Weapon Defense, Improved Two Weapon Defense, Graceful Edge, Active Shield Defense, Vault, Combat Cloak Expert, Defensive Opportunist, Defensive Strike, Spinning Defense all have something similiar if not exactly the same as the above qualifying statement. The latter three I mention even have Combat Expertise as a prereq. So, my question is, can Combat Expertise be used in replacement of Fighting Defensively or using Total Defense in order to activate these other feats? Maybe even in a sort of virtual feat capacity? Is this addressed anywhere? If the answer is 'yes, it can be substituted', then how much minus to 'to hit' is necessary to activate the above list of feats? Would even a -1 on Combat Expertise active Vault for example? If the answer is 'no, Combat Expertise can not be substituted for Fighting Defensively or Total Defense', well, to me, that seems kind of stupid considering the point I make in my first paragraph. Update: And sense we are on the subject, what about the Elaborate Parry of a Duelist? can Combat Expertise be subbed for that?
Bopple 11-20-07, 07:16 PM	No, you cannot substitute Combat Reflexes for Fighting Defensively or simiar. Why? Because the rule does not say you can.
Angus Cotton 11-20-07, 07:25 PM	No, you cannot substitute Combat Reflexes for Fighting Defensively or simiar. Why? Because the rule does not say you can. er....don't you mean, Combat Expertise not Combat Reflexes?
Bopple 11-20-07, 07:28 PM	Oops, yeah, right.
Marcus Majarra 11-20-07, 11:06 PM	Generally, when an ability allows you to substitute the use of Combat Expertise for fighting defensively (it occurs on a semi-regular basis), it will state so explicitly. As Bopple mentioned, the two are not intrinsically interchangeable. As a matter of fact, they're even stackable.
StevenO 11-20-07, 11:44 PM	As noted Combat Expertise does not generally substitute for anything requiring one the Fight Defensively. A few newer abilitys do let one use either Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively but in these cases the CE penalty needs to be -2 (or maybe it's -4 I don't remember for certain) so CE at least mirrors some aspect of FD. There certainly are times you'd use both Fighting Defensively and Combat Expertise. Under normal conditions you'll take the 1:1 benefit for CE but that maxes out at +5 (another feat removes that cap) so one adds fighting defensively as well.