Command: Halt on a flying dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Command: Halt on a flying dragon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
prosopis
03-12-07, 01:33 PM Hello all,
If you cast Command: Halt on a creature, they are not allowed to take ANY action. If you cast this spell on a flying dragon, are they allowed to continue flapping their wings? Essentially, our controversy arises from the question of whether flapping ones wings considered an action. If one was under the influence of a fly spell, we all agree that this situation would NOT cause one to fall because that sort of flight is a passive action. But flapping your wings is an active action and this spell may (and did) cause a dragon to fall out of the air.

Input is appreciated. Thanks in advance,
Prosopis
Someone
03-12-07, 01:47 PM I think this falls under the "if the subject can't carry out your command on its next turn, the spell fails" exception. The dragon can't not move- if it doesn't use a move action to keep flying, it falls, which is a movement of its own.

Alternatively, you could phrase it as "come no closer", so the dragon would fly at a distance no closer to the cleric than it started.
Merestil Haye
03-12-07, 01:54 PM Since the subject is not allowed to take any actions, and movement is an action, they are not allowed to take movement actions.

Creatures with better than Average manoevreability can hover, and thus would not fall. If it has Average, Poor or Clumsy manoevreability it will fall (even if it has the Hover feat, since it needs to take a move action to use that feat). most dragons aren't that great in the manoevreability department but it would be a good idea to check it out.

Dragons are immune to paralysis, but Command does not leave you helpless so that won't stop it.

That only leaves one thing to ask. Did you issue the command in a language it understood? Command is language-dependant.

If all that is OK, the creature will stall on its turn, and fall according to the Stalling rules.
Starmage21
03-12-07, 07:48 PM Since the subject is not allowed to take any actions, and movement is an action, they are not allowed to take movement actions.

Creatures with better than Average manoevreability can hover, and thus would not fall. If it has Average, Poor or Clumsy manoevreability it will fall (even if it has the Hover feat, since it needs to take a move action to use that feat). most dragons aren't that great in the manoevreability department but it would be a good idea to check it out.

Dragons are immune to paralysis, but Command does not leave you helpless so that won't stop it.

That only leaves one thing to ask. Did you issue the command in a language it understood? Command is language-dependant.

If all that is OK, the creature will stall on its turn, and fall according to the Stalling rules.

It also has to fail a will save against a level 1 spell. Not very hard, but the one time a dragon fails it, the event will be golden.
Voran
03-12-07, 08:05 PM Plus "Halt" can have several interpretations.

It could mean 'stop' but doesn't necessarily mean "you can't move, blink, breathe, talk, whine, whatever"

Now a Command to "STOP FLYING" or something, would have the effect of no flapping wings, but since thats more than 1 word, can't be used.
mcnoo
03-13-07, 03:13 PM Command it to fall
Voran
03-14-07, 01:50 AM Sleep would probably be useful vs a flying creature too :) Especially ones with crappy maneuvering like dragons.
Marcus Majarra
03-16-07, 01:12 PM Voran, the Command spell isn't subject to interpretation. You choose the command you want the subject to carry out, and the consequences are as stated in the PHB.
Downtym
03-16-07, 02:14 PM Hello all,
If you cast Command: Halt on a creature, they are not allowed to take ANY action. If you cast this spell on a flying dragon, are they allowed to continue flapping their wings? Essentially, our controversy arises from the question of whether flapping ones wings considered an action. If one was under the influence of a fly spell, we all agree that this situation would NOT cause one to fall because that sort of flight is a passive action. But flapping your wings is an active action and this spell may (and did) cause a dragon to fall out of the air.

Input is appreciated. Thanks in advance,
Prosopis

I would rule that the creature attempts to do as the spell states: "Halt: The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless." Unfortunately, standing in place while flying means hovering. If the creature can't hover, it falls - it still *tries* really hard, it just can't do it.
Millennium
03-16-07, 02:37 PM Quoth the SRD:
You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.

[snip]

If the subject can’t carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails.
The dragon cannot simply stop moving while taking no actions if it is flying. If it takes no actions, it will fall. If it stays in place, it will hover. Therefore, I see three possible rulings:
The spell fails. The dragon cannot halt, so it doesn't halt.
The dragon hovers in place for one round, taking no other actions.
The dragon spirals down in a controlled descent toward a point on the ground directly below wherever it was when the order was given. Once it has landed, it takes no actions for the duration of the spell.
Downtym
03-16-07, 06:24 PM Quoth the SRD:

The dragon cannot simply stop moving while taking no actions if it is flying. If it takes no actions, it will fall. If it stays in place, it will hover. Therefore, I see three possible rulings:
The spell fails. The dragon cannot halt, so it doesn't halt.
The dragon hovers in place for one round, taking no other actions.
The dragon spirals down in a controlled descent toward a point on the ground directly below wherever it was when the order was given. Once it has landed, it takes no actions for the duration of the spell.

Can't != Will result in harm.

What you're saying is "The dragon *can't* do X because it will hurt it!" That's not what is meant here by "can't". What is meant by "can't" is literally "CANNOT", as in it is physically impossible.

Commanding me to "Drop" when I'm holding absolutely nothing in my hands is an example of a command I can't follow. But, Commanding me to "Drop" when I'm holding a boulder over my head is an example of a command I can follow - and which might have horrible consequences if the boulder falls on my head.
GospelofRob
03-16-07, 06:57 PM isn't there a "fall" command that makes the target fall prone? that would make it fall out of the sky.
prosopis
03-16-07, 09:19 PM Great responses, thank you very much. In having further discussions with our DM, we've come to the conclusion that the dragon will indeed stop hovering as this is a move action. However, this doesn't mean it'll drop out of the sky like a stone. It's wings are still splayed out. Therefore, we feel that it will glide down (perhaps spiralling) in the direction it is facing. Opinions on this ruling?

Prosopis
Merestil Haye
03-17-07, 08:27 AM The rules on flying movement do specify what happens to a creature that cannot or will not take a move action to keep moving forward if it needs to to stay aloft.

It stalls.Minimum Forward Speed
If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn. Note that this is not freefalling - a creature in free fall will plummet 576' straight down in the first round, and approximately 1,200' each round thereafter, so the "150' in the first round" already represents a considerable amount of physics bending, and I ascribe it to the fact that the creature can fly.

Personally I think that if you've managed to get a 1st level spell to work on a dragon at all you deserve something for it. Watching it spiral down somehow seems so frustrating.
prosopis
03-18-07, 07:37 PM Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. Merestil, I think you've got it. We will use your suggestion in the future.
Prosopis

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prosopis 03-12-07, 01:33 PM	Hello all, If you cast Command: Halt on a creature, they are not allowed to take ANY action. If you cast this spell on a flying dragon, are they allowed to continue flapping their wings? Essentially, our controversy arises from the question of whether flapping ones wings considered an action. If one was under the influence of a fly spell, we all agree that this situation would NOT cause one to fall because that sort of flight is a passive action. But flapping your wings is an active action and this spell may (and did) cause a dragon to fall out of the air. Input is appreciated. Thanks in advance, Prosopis
Someone 03-12-07, 01:47 PM	I think this falls under the "if the subject can't carry out your command on its next turn, the spell fails" exception. The dragon can't not move- if it doesn't use a move action to keep flying, it falls, which is a movement of its own. Alternatively, you could phrase it as "come no closer", so the dragon would fly at a distance no closer to the cleric than it started.
Merestil Haye 03-12-07, 01:54 PM	Since the subject is not allowed to take any actions, and movement is an action, they are not allowed to take movement actions. Creatures with better than Average manoevreability can hover, and thus would not fall. If it has Average, Poor or Clumsy manoevreability it will fall (even if it has the Hover feat, since it needs to take a move action to use that feat). most dragons aren't that great in the manoevreability department but it would be a good idea to check it out. Dragons are immune to paralysis, but Command does not leave you helpless so that won't stop it. That only leaves one thing to ask. Did you issue the command in a language it understood? Command is language-dependant. If all that is OK, the creature will stall on its turn, and fall according to the Stalling rules.
Starmage21 03-12-07, 07:48 PM	Since the subject is not allowed to take any actions, and movement is an action, they are not allowed to take movement actions. Creatures with better than Average manoevreability can hover, and thus would not fall. If it has Average, Poor or Clumsy manoevreability it will fall (even if it has the Hover feat, since it needs to take a move action to use that feat). most dragons aren't that great in the manoevreability department but it would be a good idea to check it out. Dragons are immune to paralysis, but Command does not leave you helpless so that won't stop it. That only leaves one thing to ask. Did you issue the command in a language it understood? Command is language-dependant. If all that is OK, the creature will stall on its turn, and fall according to the Stalling rules. It also has to fail a will save against a level 1 spell. Not very hard, but the one time a dragon fails it, the event will be golden.
Voran 03-12-07, 08:05 PM	Plus "Halt" can have several interpretations. It could mean 'stop' but doesn't necessarily mean "you can't move, blink, breathe, talk, whine, whatever" Now a Command to "STOP FLYING" or something, would have the effect of no flapping wings, but since thats more than 1 word, can't be used.
mcnoo 03-13-07, 03:13 PM	Command it to fall
Voran 03-14-07, 01:50 AM	Sleep would probably be useful vs a flying creature too :) Especially ones with crappy maneuvering like dragons.
Marcus Majarra 03-16-07, 01:12 PM	Voran, the Command spell isn't subject to interpretation. You choose the command you want the subject to carry out, and the consequences are as stated in the PHB.
Downtym 03-16-07, 02:14 PM	Hello all, If you cast Command: Halt on a creature, they are not allowed to take ANY action. If you cast this spell on a flying dragon, are they allowed to continue flapping their wings? Essentially, our controversy arises from the question of whether flapping ones wings considered an action. If one was under the influence of a fly spell, we all agree that this situation would NOT cause one to fall because that sort of flight is a passive action. But flapping your wings is an active action and this spell may (and did) cause a dragon to fall out of the air. Input is appreciated. Thanks in advance, Prosopis I would rule that the creature attempts to do as the spell states: "Halt: The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless." Unfortunately, standing in place while flying means hovering. If the creature can't hover, it falls - it still tries really hard, it just can't do it.
Millennium 03-16-07, 02:37 PM	Quoth the SRD: You give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options. [snip] If the subject can’t carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails. The dragon cannot simply stop moving while taking no actions if it is flying. If it takes no actions, it will fall. If it stays in place, it will hover. Therefore, I see three possible rulings: The spell fails. The dragon cannot halt, so it doesn't halt. The dragon hovers in place for one round, taking no other actions. The dragon spirals down in a controlled descent toward a point on the ground directly below wherever it was when the order was given. Once it has landed, it takes no actions for the duration of the spell.
Downtym 03-16-07, 06:24 PM	Quoth the SRD: The dragon cannot simply stop moving while taking no actions if it is flying. If it takes no actions, it will fall. If it stays in place, it will hover. Therefore, I see three possible rulings: The spell fails. The dragon cannot halt, so it doesn't halt. The dragon hovers in place for one round, taking no other actions. The dragon spirals down in a controlled descent toward a point on the ground directly below wherever it was when the order was given. Once it has landed, it takes no actions for the duration of the spell. Can't != Will result in harm. What you're saying is "The dragon can't do X because it will hurt it!" That's not what is meant here by "can't". What is meant by "can't" is literally "CANNOT", as in it is physically impossible. Commanding me to "Drop" when I'm holding absolutely nothing in my hands is an example of a command I can't follow. But, Commanding me to "Drop" when I'm holding a boulder over my head is an example of a command I can follow - and which might have horrible consequences if the boulder falls on my head.
GospelofRob 03-16-07, 06:57 PM	isn't there a "fall" command that makes the target fall prone? that would make it fall out of the sky.
prosopis 03-16-07, 09:19 PM	Great responses, thank you very much. In having further discussions with our DM, we've come to the conclusion that the dragon will indeed stop hovering as this is a move action. However, this doesn't mean it'll drop out of the sky like a stone. It's wings are still splayed out. Therefore, we feel that it will glide down (perhaps spiralling) in the direction it is facing. Opinions on this ruling? Prosopis
Merestil Haye 03-17-07, 08:27 AM	The rules on flying movement do specify what happens to a creature that cannot or will not take a move action to keep moving forward if it needs to to stay aloft. It stalls.Minimum Forward Speed If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn. Note that this is not freefalling - a creature in free fall will plummet 576' straight down in the first round, and approximately 1,200' each round thereafter, so the "150' in the first round" already represents a considerable amount of physics bending, and I ascribe it to the fact that the creature can fly. Personally I think that if you've managed to get a 1st level spell to work on a dragon at all you deserve something for it. Watching it spiral down somehow seems so frustrating.
prosopis 03-18-07, 07:37 PM	Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. Merestil, I think you've got it. We will use your suggestion in the future. Prosopis