Confused out of my mind about Regeneration and Coup De Graces!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confused out of my mind about Regeneration and Coup De Graces!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TwiddleStootch
03-21-07, 03:59 PM OK, Once again, I have become endlessly confused on a rule :confused:

Its Regeneration, namely for Trolls.

My main confusion is, can you Coup De Grace a Troll?
Or rather, does the instant-death effect work?
Or do you have to use a damage source that by-passes the Regeneration?

Thanks in advance :D
mvincent
03-21-07, 04:13 PM can you Coup De Grace a Troll?You can Coup De Grace a Troll, but only with an attack type that does lethal damage to it (like fire or acid). You cannot Coup De Grace a troll with an attack type that is non-lethal to it.

From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration):
"A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage."
olshanski_home
03-21-07, 04:27 PM Mvincent is correct.

Note also that there is no upper cap on how much non-lethal damage a creature can take. If the troll normally has 50 HP, and you deal 10,000 hp of non-lethal damage, it is going to be a long time before that troll can get up and move around.

Note also that trolls are not immune to death by suffocation. If you give a troll sufficient non-lethal damage (say a few thousand points), and then cram a rock in its windpipe, (or bury its head in sand or a bucket of water), the troll will surely suffocate before it recovers enough non-lethal damage to help itself.
mvincent
03-21-07, 04:32 PM bury its head in sand or a bucket of waterYou would probably want to make sure the head is the largest piece left before doing this.
TwiddleStootch
03-21-07, 04:49 PM So, lets say you have a +1 Flaming Lognsword.
You can Coup De Grace a Troll with it, right?

But for the instant-death effect, does the saving throw count the weapon damage, or just the 1d6 fire damage?
mvincent
03-21-07, 05:26 PM for the instant-death effect, does the saving throw count the weapon damage, or just the 1d6 fire damage?Just the fire damage
lint trap
03-21-07, 06:06 PM Though a "cauterization" house rule isn't unreasonable.
catsclaw
03-22-07, 05:21 PM Though a "cauterization" house rule isn't unreasonable.Even if you're only doing 1 point of fire damage, it's a point of lethal damage. Assuming it makes its save against the coup-de-grace effect every round (and everyone rolls a 1 eventually) the lethal damage will eventually rack up enough to kill it.

Just make sure you're doing enough non-lethal damage as well to keep it unconscious.
The_Ditto
03-23-07, 08:19 AM Even if you're only doing 1 point of fire damage, it's a point of lethal damage. Assuming it makes its save against the coup-de-grace effect every round (and everyone rolls a 1 eventually) the lethal damage will eventually rack up enough to kill it.

Just make sure you're doing enough non-lethal damage as well to keep it unconscious.

Agreed ... and assuming a flaming sword ... using power attack + coup de grace should ensure you outdo the regen ... :D
Wraith7153
03-24-07, 12:15 AM Yes you can, it says so right in the MM in the rules for regeneration, "a regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace... the attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage". So in other words, you need to coup de grace it with a fire and/or acid attack.
mvincent
03-24-07, 04:56 PM Yes you can, it says so right in the MM in the rules for regeneration, "a regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace... the attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage". So in other words, you need to coup de grace it with a fire and/or acid attack.You didn't happen to read the first answer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11871097#post11845808) in this thread, by any chance?
DaMullet
03-26-07, 04:17 PM I think I have a stickier question: Can you deal nonlethal damage with a "lethal" CdG to a regenerating creature in the same way one can use an unarmed strike or sap to deal nonlethal damage to a normal creature?

In other words, if you don't have a lantern or flaming shortsword, can you CdG a troll nonlethally, bringing him to his HP total+10 in Nonlethal damage?
catsclaw
03-26-07, 07:22 PM In other words, if you don't have a lantern or flaming shortsword, can you CdG a troll nonlethally, bringing him to his HP total+10 in Nonlethal damage?You can't kill a creature with nonlethal damage. You track lethal and nonlethal damage separately; creatures only die when they reach -10 lethal damage. If a creature ever has more nonlethal damage than it has hit points left, it falls unconscious, but that won't cause it to die.

Also note, healing spells affect both lethal and nonlethal damage equally. If you've taken a sword blow for 6 hp (lethal) and a punch for 6 hp (nonlethal), when someone casts a cure spell on you and cures 4 hp, you end up with 2 hp (lethal) and 2 hp (nonlethal).
weasel0
03-26-07, 09:06 PM Please. All's it takes is a little rules-lawyering under the non-leathel section to turn this little tid-bit....
Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage: You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

.... into your very best friend. ;)

Once again, RAW FTW! *sigh RAW is so broken :P
olshanski_home
03-26-07, 10:11 PM Please. All's it takes is a little rules-lawyering under the non-leathel section to turn this little tid-bit....

.... into your very best friend. ;)

Once again, RAW FTW! *sigh RAW is so broken :P

That's very good, weasel0, but the specific case of regeneration seems to override the general case of using a sap or non-lethal attack form to deal lethal damage.

In this case, it seems the regenration renders ALL non-fire, non-acid lethal damage as non-lethal.

You have two conflicting rules, and I think when this happens you are supposed to let the specific (regeneration) override the general (using non-lethal weapons).
weasel0
03-27-07, 08:08 PM :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I love this guy. Complimentary. Suggestive instead of abrasively forceful. And consistently shows sensible rules application.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TwiddleStootch 03-21-07, 03:59 PM	OK, Once again, I have become endlessly confused on a rule :confused: Its Regeneration, namely for Trolls. My main confusion is, can you Coup De Grace a Troll? Or rather, does the instant-death effect work? Or do you have to use a damage source that by-passes the Regeneration? Thanks in advance :D
mvincent 03-21-07, 04:13 PM	can you Coup De Grace a Troll?You can Coup De Grace a Troll, but only with an attack type that does lethal damage to it (like fire or acid). You cannot Coup De Grace a troll with an attack type that is non-lethal to it. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration): "A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage."
olshanski_home 03-21-07, 04:27 PM	Mvincent is correct. Note also that there is no upper cap on how much non-lethal damage a creature can take. If the troll normally has 50 HP, and you deal 10,000 hp of non-lethal damage, it is going to be a long time before that troll can get up and move around. Note also that trolls are not immune to death by suffocation. If you give a troll sufficient non-lethal damage (say a few thousand points), and then cram a rock in its windpipe, (or bury its head in sand or a bucket of water), the troll will surely suffocate before it recovers enough non-lethal damage to help itself.
mvincent 03-21-07, 04:32 PM	bury its head in sand or a bucket of waterYou would probably want to make sure the head is the largest piece left before doing this.
TwiddleStootch 03-21-07, 04:49 PM	So, lets say you have a +1 Flaming Lognsword. You can Coup De Grace a Troll with it, right? But for the instant-death effect, does the saving throw count the weapon damage, or just the 1d6 fire damage?
mvincent 03-21-07, 05:26 PM	for the instant-death effect, does the saving throw count the weapon damage, or just the 1d6 fire damage?Just the fire damage
lint trap 03-21-07, 06:06 PM	Though a "cauterization" house rule isn't unreasonable.
catsclaw 03-22-07, 05:21 PM	Though a "cauterization" house rule isn't unreasonable.Even if you're only doing 1 point of fire damage, it's a point of lethal damage. Assuming it makes its save against the coup-de-grace effect every round (and everyone rolls a 1 eventually) the lethal damage will eventually rack up enough to kill it. Just make sure you're doing enough non-lethal damage as well to keep it unconscious.
The_Ditto 03-23-07, 08:19 AM	Even if you're only doing 1 point of fire damage, it's a point of lethal damage. Assuming it makes its save against the coup-de-grace effect every round (and everyone rolls a 1 eventually) the lethal damage will eventually rack up enough to kill it. Just make sure you're doing enough non-lethal damage as well to keep it unconscious. Agreed ... and assuming a flaming sword ... using power attack + coup de grace should ensure you outdo the regen ... :D
Wraith7153 03-24-07, 12:15 AM	Yes you can, it says so right in the MM in the rules for regeneration, "a regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace... the attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage". So in other words, you need to coup de grace it with a fire and/or acid attack.
mvincent 03-24-07, 04:56 PM	Yes you can, it says so right in the MM in the rules for regeneration, "a regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace... the attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage". So in other words, you need to coup de grace it with a fire and/or acid attack.You didn't happen to read the first answer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11871097#post11845808) in this thread, by any chance?
DaMullet 03-26-07, 04:17 PM	I think I have a stickier question: Can you deal nonlethal damage with a "lethal" CdG to a regenerating creature in the same way one can use an unarmed strike or sap to deal nonlethal damage to a normal creature? In other words, if you don't have a lantern or flaming shortsword, can you CdG a troll nonlethally, bringing him to his HP total+10 in Nonlethal damage?
catsclaw 03-26-07, 07:22 PM	In other words, if you don't have a lantern or flaming shortsword, can you CdG a troll nonlethally, bringing him to his HP total+10 in Nonlethal damage?You can't kill a creature with nonlethal damage. You track lethal and nonlethal damage separately; creatures only die when they reach -10 lethal damage. If a creature ever has more nonlethal damage than it has hit points left, it falls unconscious, but that won't cause it to die. Also note, healing spells affect both lethal and nonlethal damage equally. If you've taken a sword blow for 6 hp (lethal) and a punch for 6 hp (nonlethal), when someone casts a cure spell on you and cures 4 hp, you end up with 2 hp (lethal) and 2 hp (nonlethal).
weasel0 03-26-07, 09:06 PM	Please. All's it takes is a little rules-lawyering under the non-leathel section to turn this little tid-bit.... Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage: You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. .... into your very best friend. ;) Once again, RAW FTW! *sigh RAW is so broken :P
olshanski_home 03-26-07, 10:11 PM	Please. All's it takes is a little rules-lawyering under the non-leathel section to turn this little tid-bit.... .... into your very best friend. ;) Once again, RAW FTW! *sigh RAW is so broken :P That's very good, weasel0, but the specific case of regeneration seems to override the general case of using a sap or non-lethal attack form to deal lethal damage. In this case, it seems the regenration renders ALL non-fire, non-acid lethal damage as non-lethal. You have two conflicting rules, and I think when this happens you are supposed to let the specific (regeneration) override the general (using non-lethal weapons).
weasel0 03-27-07, 08:08 PM	:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: I love this guy. Complimentary. Suggestive instead of abrasively forceful. And consistently shows sensible rules application.