Confusion concerning Quarterstaves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confusion concerning Quarterstaves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jaspercrey
07-22-07, 12:18 PM Could you guys help me out?

The quarterstaff is listed by RAW is a two-handed weapon that is also a double-weapon.

From SRD concearning Two-handed weapons:
Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon
The emphasis is mine, and will come into play later.

From SRD concearning Double-weapons:
Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
Again, emphasis added is mine.

So here are my questions:

1. What does "wield effectively" mean? Or, is there a penalty for attempting to weild a two-handed weapon with one hand?

2. See the bolded text under Double-weapon, above. It is clearly giving an example of a two-handed weapon weilded in one hand. It simply states that such a weapon, when weilded with one hand can't be used as a double-weapon.

Is that the only penalty associated with weilding a double-weapon with one hand, or would that be in addition to any penalties (if there is such a thing) to using a two-handed weapon with one hand?

tanks
Rerecros
07-22-07, 03:04 PM You can only weild a two handed weapon with both hands, unless you know of some feat that works around this.

The explaination deals with under sized weapons, a human weilding a doublesword designed for halflings could wield it in one hand, but then it couldn't be used as a double weapon.
Anathema
07-22-07, 03:06 PM You can only weild a two handed weapon with both hands, unless you know of some feat that works around this.

The explaination deals with under sized weapons, a human weilding a doublesword designed for halflings could wield it in one hand, but then it couldn't be used as a double weapon.

I don't think the entry was meant specifically for this; but instead encompasses any situation where someone might be able to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand (like with monkey grip or powerful build, which came later; or undersized weapons as you say).
Tzor
07-23-07, 02:18 PM OK this is really easy to explain, but first I need you to do something. Please put the rules over to the side for a moment. I'll get back to them, I promise.

A quarterstaff is a big stick.

Put your hands at the middle of the stick.
To wack someone with one end of the stick you have to push with one hand and pull with the other.
Reverse the operation to wack with the other end of the stick.

(whack/whack) you've just used the quarterstaff as double weapon.

Put your hands again at the middle of the stick.
Slide your hands down a bit so that most of the stick is above your hands.
Give both of your hands a nice downward push.

(whack) you've just used the quarterstaff as a double handed weapon.

OK let's go back to the rules. In the first case only one hand was really doing the pushing at a time. In the second case both hands were equally engaged in a unified action.

So what about using a double weapon in one hand?

Using the SRD I would say that it seems to imply you can use one part of a double weapon in one hand ignoring the other part. The text "A creature wielding a XXXXX in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon— only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round" can be found for the dire flail,the double sword and the quarterstaff. I can't find any place where a penalty is listed other than not being able to use the other end of the weapon. So I assume there is none.
Anathema
07-23-07, 04:07 PM Lets not try to use logic alone when it comes to game mechanics; the two often do not marry due to concerns such as balance or combat tempo.

To do otherwise would invite comparisons on how long it takes you to act (not as long as six seconds), and in what order (definately not in order, as initiative has you do).

While it is true that some logic was used to create the rules, it's obvious that much logic was obscured in the spirit of making a game; so using logic to try and interpret or correct the rules alone ignores the other considerations that are inherent to creating an abstract combat rules structure.

Basically what I'm saying is that logic is not the sole consideration when creating the game, thus it should not be the sole consideration when interpreting it.
Marcus Majarra
07-23-07, 04:33 PM I don't think the entry was meant specifically for this; but instead encompasses any situation where someone might be able to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand (like with monkey grip or powerful build, which came later; or undersized weapons as you say).
Keep in mind, however, that neither Monkey Grip or Powerful Build reduces the effort needed to wield a weapon. You still need two hands to wield most double weapons appropriate for your size.
meabolex
07-23-07, 05:18 PM 1. What does "wield effectively" mean? Or, is there a penalty for attempting to weild a two-handed weapon with one hand?

I believe it would be the equivalent of using an improvised weapon. It's too heavy to use effectively in its intended way. Therefore, you're using it in an awkward, unintended way. There's probably some FAQ or rule I can't remember to counter this, but off the top of my head that's how I'd rule it.

2. See the bolded text under Double-weapon, above. It is clearly giving an example of a two-handed weapon weilded in one hand. It simply states that such a weapon, when weilded with one hand can't be used as a double-weapon.

Is that the only penalty associated with weilding a double-weapon with one hand, or would that be in addition to any penalties (if there is such a thing) to using a two-handed weapon with one hand?

Keep in mind a double weapon is not necessarily a two-handed weapon. Double weapons are modal in that they can change from being one-handers to two-handers based on how you hold them. Double weapons have specific properties that non-double weapons don't have. Therefore, you cannot readily compare a two-handed weapon to a double weapon without taking those rules (that you listed) in context.
Marcus Majarra
07-23-07, 11:31 PM Keep in mind a double weapon is not necessarily a two-handed weapon. Double weapons are modal in that they can change from being one-handers to two-handers based on how you hold them. Double weapons have specific properties that non-double weapons don't have. Therefore, you cannot readily compare a two-handed weapon to a double weapon without taking those rules (that you listed) in context.
This requires further clarification. I don't think I've ever seen a double weapon that wasn't listed as a two-handed weapon. All double weapons require two hands to use (barring wielding one not appropriate to your size) and are considered two-handed weapons, save for the purposes of fighting with two weapons (in which case one end of the double weapon counts as a one-handed weapon, and the other counts as a light weapon). In either case, you're still using both your hands to wield the weapon. You can't simply wield one end of the weapon as a one-handed weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jaspercrey 07-22-07, 12:18 PM	Could you guys help me out? The quarterstaff is listed by RAW is a two-handed weapon that is also a double-weapon. From SRD concearning Two-handed weapons: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon The emphasis is mine, and will come into play later. From SRD concearning Double-weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round. Again, emphasis added is mine. So here are my questions: 1. What does "wield effectively" mean? Or, is there a penalty for attempting to weild a two-handed weapon with one hand? 2. See the bolded text under Double-weapon, above. It is clearly giving an example of a two-handed weapon weilded in one hand. It simply states that such a weapon, when weilded with one hand can't be used as a double-weapon. Is that the only penalty associated with weilding a double-weapon with one hand, or would that be in addition to any penalties (if there is such a thing) to using a two-handed weapon with one hand? tanks
Rerecros 07-22-07, 03:04 PM	You can only weild a two handed weapon with both hands, unless you know of some feat that works around this. The explaination deals with under sized weapons, a human weilding a doublesword designed for halflings could wield it in one hand, but then it couldn't be used as a double weapon.
Anathema 07-22-07, 03:06 PM	You can only weild a two handed weapon with both hands, unless you know of some feat that works around this. The explaination deals with under sized weapons, a human weilding a doublesword designed for halflings could wield it in one hand, but then it couldn't be used as a double weapon. I don't think the entry was meant specifically for this; but instead encompasses any situation where someone might be able to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand (like with monkey grip or powerful build, which came later; or undersized weapons as you say).
Tzor 07-23-07, 02:18 PM	OK this is really easy to explain, but first I need you to do something. Please put the rules over to the side for a moment. I'll get back to them, I promise. A quarterstaff is a big stick. Put your hands at the middle of the stick. To wack someone with one end of the stick you have to push with one hand and pull with the other. Reverse the operation to wack with the other end of the stick. (whack/whack) you've just used the quarterstaff as double weapon. Put your hands again at the middle of the stick. Slide your hands down a bit so that most of the stick is above your hands. Give both of your hands a nice downward push. (whack) you've just used the quarterstaff as a double handed weapon. OK let's go back to the rules. In the first case only one hand was really doing the pushing at a time. In the second case both hands were equally engaged in a unified action. So what about using a double weapon in one hand? Using the SRD I would say that it seems to imply you can use one part of a double weapon in one hand ignoring the other part. The text "A creature wielding a XXXXX in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon— only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round" can be found for the dire flail,the double sword and the quarterstaff. I can't find any place where a penalty is listed other than not being able to use the other end of the weapon. So I assume there is none.
Anathema 07-23-07, 04:07 PM	Lets not try to use logic alone when it comes to game mechanics; the two often do not marry due to concerns such as balance or combat tempo. To do otherwise would invite comparisons on how long it takes you to act (not as long as six seconds), and in what order (definately not in order, as initiative has you do). While it is true that some logic was used to create the rules, it's obvious that much logic was obscured in the spirit of making a game; so using logic to try and interpret or correct the rules alone ignores the other considerations that are inherent to creating an abstract combat rules structure. Basically what I'm saying is that logic is not the sole consideration when creating the game, thus it should not be the sole consideration when interpreting it.
Marcus Majarra 07-23-07, 04:33 PM	I don't think the entry was meant specifically for this; but instead encompasses any situation where someone might be able to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand (like with monkey grip or powerful build, which came later; or undersized weapons as you say). Keep in mind, however, that neither Monkey Grip or Powerful Build reduces the effort needed to wield a weapon. You still need two hands to wield most double weapons appropriate for your size.
meabolex 07-23-07, 05:18 PM	1. What does "wield effectively" mean? Or, is there a penalty for attempting to weild a two-handed weapon with one hand? I believe it would be the equivalent of using an improvised weapon. It's too heavy to use effectively in its intended way. Therefore, you're using it in an awkward, unintended way. There's probably some FAQ or rule I can't remember to counter this, but off the top of my head that's how I'd rule it. 2. See the bolded text under Double-weapon, above. It is clearly giving an example of a two-handed weapon weilded in one hand. It simply states that such a weapon, when weilded with one hand can't be used as a double-weapon. Is that the only penalty associated with weilding a double-weapon with one hand, or would that be in addition to any penalties (if there is such a thing) to using a two-handed weapon with one hand? Keep in mind a double weapon is not necessarily a two-handed weapon. Double weapons are modal in that they can change from being one-handers to two-handers based on how you hold them. Double weapons have specific properties that non-double weapons don't have. Therefore, you cannot readily compare a two-handed weapon to a double weapon without taking those rules (that you listed) in context.
Marcus Majarra 07-23-07, 11:31 PM	Keep in mind a double weapon is not necessarily a two-handed weapon. Double weapons are modal in that they can change from being one-handers to two-handers based on how you hold them. Double weapons have specific properties that non-double weapons don't have. Therefore, you cannot readily compare a two-handed weapon to a double weapon without taking those rules (that you listed) in context. This requires further clarification. I don't think I've ever seen a double weapon that wasn't listed as a two-handed weapon. All double weapons require two hands to use (barring wielding one not appropriate to your size) and are considered two-handed weapons, save for the purposes of fighting with two weapons (in which case one end of the double weapon counts as a one-handed weapon, and the other counts as a light weapon). In either case, you're still using both your hands to wield the weapon. You can't simply wield one end of the weapon as a one-handed weapon.