Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 06-11-07, 01:00 AM	Friend of mine has an issue with a GM ruling on this...is it possible to cite RAW as to 'yes, 'creation' spells that dont allow SR dont have 50% chance to hit incorporeal' or 'no, they're spells no matter how you splice it'?
Salla 06-11-07, 01:20 AM	Unless the spell is a Force effect, the spell is still a spell and has a 50% chance to miss due to incorporeality. From d20srd.org: It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). No mention is made of spells that ignore SR as bypassing incorporeality.
Leilond 06-11-07, 07:24 AM	Incorporeality has nothing to do with DR nor with SR Magic items blow ignore SR but this doesn't mean you autohit incorporeal creature The only attacks that do not have 50% hit are those specified in the rules, and the rules do not mention SR at all
Light_Colonel 06-11-07, 07:53 AM	Personally, I would think the Summoned Monsters would be unable to damage the Incoporeal creature at all. Simply because they are summoned does not automatically give them magic weaponry. Since they are corporeal when they attack ((Incorporeal Monster)) they would be unable to do any damage to it.
Leilond 06-11-07, 08:02 AM	Personally, I would think the Summoned Monsters would be unable to damage the Incoporeal creature at all. Simply because they are summoned does not automatically give them magic weaponry. Since they are corporeal when they attack ((Incorporeal Monster)) they would be unable to do any damage to it. Well... I think he was talking about a monster like some demons that consider their weapons as "magical" If the weapons of the summoned monster aren't magical it's obvious that they cannot damage incorporeal creature at all
Kragg Bonemeal 06-11-07, 09:05 AM	The reason "creation" spells don't have SR is that they are no longer "spells" after you cast them. The spell "creates" a real, tangible object. A Wall of Iron is just like a real wall made out of iron. Non-magical, and therefore the incorporeal creature will pass right through it. Same with the Acid Arrow spell... the effect of the spell ends when a glob of acid shoot from your finger. What hits your target is non-magical acid that was "created" by the spell. These spells would just not effect an incorporeal creature. This makes me want to really make sure I remember what spells are being cast at what. :devil:
lint trap 06-11-07, 10:29 AM	There are two ways you can go with this one; the important thing is to make the magic system consistent. 1) "SR: No" spells can be cast into (but not within) an Antimagic Field. But, since they're nonmagical, they have no chance to harm incorporeal creatures. 2) "SR: No" spells have a 50% chance to harm incorporeal creatures; but since they're magic, they can't be cast into an Antimagic Field. Many players want to have this one both ways, but it just don't fly in my campaign. Let them pick, but hold them to it.
Leilond 06-11-07, 10:35 AM	There are two ways you can go with this one; the important thing is to make the magic system consistent. 1) "SR: No" spells can be cast into (but not within) an Antimagic Field. But, since they're nonmagical, they have no chance to harm incorporeal creatures. 2) "SR: No" spells have a 50% chance to harm incorporeal creatures; but since they're magic, they can't be cast into an Antimagic Field. Many players want to have this one both ways, but it just don't fly in my campaign. Let them pick, but hold them to it. "SR: No" doesn't mean "they're nonmagical" Or do you admit "Alarm" to work in a antimagic field What about "Blink"? And what about "Read Magic"? And "Gate"? "Mage armour"? The are too many "SR: No" spells that are obviously magic to consider it non magical, even "Conguration (creation)" spells like "mage armor" or "unseen servant" or "Phase door"
goawayugh 06-11-07, 12:44 PM	The reason "creation" spells don't have SR is that they are no longer "spells" after you cast them. The spell "creates" a real, tangible object. A Wall of Iron is just like a real wall made out of iron. Non-magical, and therefore the incorporeal creature will pass right through it. Same with the Acid Arrow spell... the effect of the spell ends when a glob of acid shoot from your finger. What hits your target is non-magical acid that was "created" by the spell. These spells would just not effect an incorporeal creature. This makes me want to really make sure I remember what spells are being cast at what. :devil: Not quite. Yes, the wall of iron will be a normal wall made of iron after the spell is cast. The acid arrow is a spell. The damage it leaves is what is left from the creation effect, but the acid arrow that is part of the spell is magical.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-11-07, 01:12 PM	I went back to review the spells, and Acid Arrow does in fact have a "duration" since it continues to burn. This means it is still under the effect of the "magic spell". This also means it can be dispelled off the victim. Good catch, goawayugh. Creation spells with "instantaneous" duration, like Wall of Iron, are the ones that won't affect the incorporeal creature, being as they create an object that is permanent and real. See Acid Splash as one. The Orb spells are not SRD, but I believe they are "instantaneous" as well.
lears_fool 06-11-07, 01:59 PM	You should be able to consistently rule that if it works in an antimagic field, then it does not impact an incorporeal target. So the orb spells would be out for certain.
goawayugh 06-11-07, 03:06 PM	You should be able to consistently rule that if it works in an antimagic field, then it does not impact an incorporeal target. So the orb spells would be out for certain. Agreed.
Thubby 06-11-07, 04:22 PM	conjuration spells that ignore spell resistance can be flung into anti mag zones because they arent magical when they hit. or so the rule goes (i may have missed a particular or 2) apply comon sense as needed. the same logic could apply to incorporials, if it isnt magic when you throw it (since it works in antimag zone) it cant hit incorporials. i could make an arguement the other way too, so id go with the DM. he did take mag missile right?
Marcus Majarra 06-11-07, 04:57 PM	conjuration spells that ignore spell resistance can be flung into anti mag zones because they arent magical when they hit. or so the rule goes (i may have missed a particular or 2) apply comon sense as needed. the same logic could apply to incorporials, if it isnt magic when you throw it (since it works in antimag zone) it cant hit incorporials. i could make an arguement the other way too, so id go with the DM. he did take mag missile right? This is incorrect. The magic the creates and maintains the conjured components is very much subject to antimagic, even if what's been conjured isn't. The only spells with a remote chance of working when aimed into an antimagic field are conjuration (creation) spells with an instantaneous duration.
lears_fool 06-11-07, 05:05 PM	This is incorrect. The magic the creates and maintains the conjured components is very much subject to antimagic, even if what's been conjured isn't. The only spells with a remote chance of working when aimed into an antimagic field are conjuration (creation) spells with an instantaneous duration. Yup, basically things like the Orb spells, the conjure wall spells, acid splash, and . .umm. . gate?? Okay, other than that last one we're good
Thubby 06-11-07, 09:38 PM	This is incorrect. The magic the creates and maintains the conjured components is very much subject to antimagic, even if what's been conjured isn't. The only spells with a remote chance of working when aimed into an antimagic field are conjuration (creation) spells with an instantaneous duration. ya, your right, my bad. thats what i get for posting late at night :P
Dherki 06-12-07, 01:08 PM	There are two ways you can go with this one; the important thing is to make the magic system consistent. 1) "SR: No" spells can be cast into (but not within) an Antimagic Field. But, since they're nonmagical, they have no chance to harm incorporeal creatures. 2) "SR: No" spells have a 50% chance to harm incorporeal creatures; but since they're magic, they can't be cast into an Antimagic Field. Many players want to have this one both ways, but it just don't fly in my campaign. Let them pick, but hold them to it. But what about Orb of Force?
lears_fool 06-12-07, 01:58 PM	But what about Orb of Force? That's why SR's not really a good guideline. . instead Conjuration-Creation of instantaneous duration is. Orb of force doesn't go into an anti-magic field and does impact an incorporeal creature
Marcus Majarra 06-12-07, 07:13 PM	Yup, basically things like the Orb spells, the conjure wall spells, acid splash, and . .umm. . gate?? Okay, other than that last one we're good Actually, none of these spells will work if its effect originates from an area of antimagic. Antimagic blocks line of effect, which you need to affect something with magic. Thus, you couldn't conjure a wall of iron inside an antimagic field, nor could you fire an orb spell into one.
lears_fool 06-13-07, 01:01 AM	Actually, none of these spells will work if its effect originates from an area of antimagic. Antimagic blocks line of effect, which you need to affect something with magic. Thus, you couldn't conjure a wall of iron inside an antimagic field, nor could you fire an orb spell into one. True, I was more saying that. .unlike say magic missile, the spell's effect isn't impacted by an antimagic field . because it's non-magical once the spell's cast. So the instantaneous conjuration-creation guideline is a good one on both sides.