Control Undead Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Control Undead Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jdarksong
02-28-07, 09:09 AM This is the first time I've ever had something like this come up, so I need some advice!

I have a player who is using a Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. He was wanting to be able to use the control/command feature of the rebuke undead feature. In game, I ruled this as lasting for 10 rounds as per standard turning/rebuking. He claimed that this was too short a time, and was useless, but as I was DM he let it stand.
He is questioning it now (out of game - he's a good player!) and I was trying to get as much info as possible so that if I am getting the rules wrong, we can fix it. However, it seems to me that the 'the undead is mine forever' is a little strong, especially at first level. Can anyone help with a ruling on this?

Thanks!
ciryx2k
02-28-07, 10:54 AM As far as I know, the only difference between turn undead and rebuke undead is what the undead do. Everything else is the same, including duration. You are correct, it would be over powered for a 1st level character to permanently control something using this, just like it would be overpowered for every undead a 1st level cleric turns to be forced to run away automatically every time he sees the cleric. Most evil clerics to control hordes of undead don't control them all at the same time. The will have hordes of mindless undead that roam around uncontrolled. When someone comes to mess with him, he just does a quick rebuke check to gain control and sends them at the players. If the undead still exist at the end of 10 rounds they leave his control. He can always make another rebuke attempt if he still needs control of them.
Kragg Bonemeal
02-28-07, 12:16 PM To "command" you have to do the same this as if a good cleric "destroyed" them. You have to double their HD with your check. Then, yes, you do get to command them forever... as long as you don't try to command more than double your caster level worth of undead HD. Look at the Animate Dead spell for your answers. Having a 'horde' of 1 or 2 skeletons at level 1 isn't "over powering". If they get turned, you lose control. If you go near a city, you are attacked for being a grave robber. Etc, etc. At level 6-8, having a bunch of undead is cool... until a cleric of the same level destroys all of them... or you waste your actions "bolstering" instead of casting destructive spells.
jdarksong
02-28-07, 01:31 PM Thanks for the info so far!

One more question... can intelligent undead be commanded? I get that you can give a skeleton or zombie a simple command and they'll just keep doing it over and over, but would intelligent undead be effected in the same way? Or would that last until the turning wore off?
mvincent
02-28-07, 01:33 PM can intelligent undead be commanded?Yup
jdarksong
02-28-07, 01:35 PM Yup

but does it only last for 10 rounds? Or is it permanent, so long as you don't relinquish it or go over your HD limit?
jdarksong
02-28-07, 02:39 PM *bump*
ciryx2k
02-28-07, 03:49 PM *bump*

I haven't found anything in the RAW that talks about this, so the following is just a DM call that I would make, your's can obviously differ:

I would say it is still limited unless you have a class ability that says otherwise. An example of this would be the Mindbender PrC from complete arcane that lets you have a single creature under the effects of a permanent dominate spell. Even then, this is a high level ability. The Mindbender can't do this until the last level of the PrC which would put your character at level 15. I would state that after 10 rounds, the intelligent undead would regain it's free will unless controlled again.
Lord Nedd
02-28-07, 04:15 PM Command undead lasts only as long it is commanded, 10 rounds, as far as I can tell regardless of its intelligence.

Where things get interesting is when you create undead. Using the animate dead spell makes them under your control indefinitely. However, they are only of the lower mindless variety.

If you try and create better undead, such as non-mindless types and higher level creepies, as such with the spell Create Undead, they are specifically not under your control.

Quoting the SRD under Create Undead:
"You may create less powerful undead than your level would allow if you choose. Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms."

Finding undead spawned by other means requires you to make an attempt to either command them or do diplomacy to get them to do what you want.

There is also the spell Command Undead that lasts 1 day/level, and has some advantages over the command undead power. You have control for a longer time, mindless get no save, and even intelligent ones get a will save (they all have good will saves, even the zombies and skellies).

In the SRD, there are no permanent ways to control intelligent undead (at least as far as I know).

-LN
Rotfl_and_Lol
03-01-07, 10:50 AM Undead are commanded till they they die, character loses ability to control them, or chooses so. Undead can choose how do they listen to orders, but they can't hurt their master or disobey. If the cleric orders (standard action) "get the sword" the skeleton will grab nearest sword, but vampire can atempt to disarm friendly warrior, because cleric didn't told him which sword he should get. Intelligent undead usualy get turn resistance, so it's harder to command them, but they are commanded like normal. Nothing limits time of commanding. It's not imba. Wizard can control your mindless undead with 2 lvl spell (no save for them). Clerics can destroy them. Intelligent undead will seek to betray you.
Dread Necro without fellow undead is buffed commoner.
ciryx2k
03-01-07, 04:21 PM Undead are commanded till they they die, character loses ability to control them, or chooses so. Undead can choose how do they listen to orders, but they can't hurt their master or disobey. If the cleric orders (standard action) "get the sword" the skeleton will grab nearest sword, but vampire can atempt to disarm friendly warrior, because cleric didn't told him which sword he should get. Intelligent undead usualy get turn resistance, so it's harder to command them, but they are commanded like normal. Nothing limits time of commanding. It's not imba. Wizard can control your mindless undead with 2 lvl spell (no save for them). Clerics can destroy them. Intelligent undead will seek to betray you.
Dread Necro without fellow undead is buffed commoner.

After going and checking the SRD, as near as I can tell, this is correct. Here's what SRD has to say:

Rebuked
A rebuked undead creature cowers as if in awe (attack rolls against the creature get a +2 bonus). The effect lasts 10 rounds.

Commanded
A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

While rebuked states that it only lasts 10 rounds, commanded never specifies a time limit. In fact, I feel, it kind of implies it lasting as long as the cleric wants when it says that he can only control a number of undead with HD equal to his level (class or character it doesn't specify), and has to drop old ones to command new ones. Again, this is only an implication that I see. It doesn't actually come out and say it is unending, but I'd agree with that assumption.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jdarksong 02-28-07, 09:09 AM	This is the first time I've ever had something like this come up, so I need some advice! I have a player who is using a Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror. He was wanting to be able to use the control/command feature of the rebuke undead feature. In game, I ruled this as lasting for 10 rounds as per standard turning/rebuking. He claimed that this was too short a time, and was useless, but as I was DM he let it stand. He is questioning it now (out of game - he's a good player!) and I was trying to get as much info as possible so that if I am getting the rules wrong, we can fix it. However, it seems to me that the 'the undead is mine forever' is a little strong, especially at first level. Can anyone help with a ruling on this? Thanks!
ciryx2k 02-28-07, 10:54 AM	As far as I know, the only difference between turn undead and rebuke undead is what the undead do. Everything else is the same, including duration. You are correct, it would be over powered for a 1st level character to permanently control something using this, just like it would be overpowered for every undead a 1st level cleric turns to be forced to run away automatically every time he sees the cleric. Most evil clerics to control hordes of undead don't control them all at the same time. The will have hordes of mindless undead that roam around uncontrolled. When someone comes to mess with him, he just does a quick rebuke check to gain control and sends them at the players. If the undead still exist at the end of 10 rounds they leave his control. He can always make another rebuke attempt if he still needs control of them.
Kragg Bonemeal 02-28-07, 12:16 PM	To "command" you have to do the same this as if a good cleric "destroyed" them. You have to double their HD with your check. Then, yes, you do get to command them forever... as long as you don't try to command more than double your caster level worth of undead HD. Look at the Animate Dead spell for your answers. Having a 'horde' of 1 or 2 skeletons at level 1 isn't "over powering". If they get turned, you lose control. If you go near a city, you are attacked for being a grave robber. Etc, etc. At level 6-8, having a bunch of undead is cool... until a cleric of the same level destroys all of them... or you waste your actions "bolstering" instead of casting destructive spells.
jdarksong 02-28-07, 01:31 PM	Thanks for the info so far! One more question... can intelligent undead be commanded? I get that you can give a skeleton or zombie a simple command and they'll just keep doing it over and over, but would intelligent undead be effected in the same way? Or would that last until the turning wore off?
mvincent 02-28-07, 01:33 PM	can intelligent undead be commanded?Yup
jdarksong 02-28-07, 01:35 PM	Yup but does it only last for 10 rounds? Or is it permanent, so long as you don't relinquish it or go over your HD limit?
jdarksong 02-28-07, 02:39 PM	bump
ciryx2k 02-28-07, 03:49 PM	bump I haven't found anything in the RAW that talks about this, so the following is just a DM call that I would make, your's can obviously differ: I would say it is still limited unless you have a class ability that says otherwise. An example of this would be the Mindbender PrC from complete arcane that lets you have a single creature under the effects of a permanent dominate spell. Even then, this is a high level ability. The Mindbender can't do this until the last level of the PrC which would put your character at level 15. I would state that after 10 rounds, the intelligent undead would regain it's free will unless controlled again.
Lord Nedd 02-28-07, 04:15 PM	Command undead lasts only as long it is commanded, 10 rounds, as far as I can tell regardless of its intelligence. Where things get interesting is when you create undead. Using the animate dead spell makes them under your control indefinitely. However, they are only of the lower mindless variety. If you try and create better undead, such as non-mindless types and higher level creepies, as such with the spell Create Undead, they are specifically not under your control. Quoting the SRD under Create Undead: "You may create less powerful undead than your level would allow if you choose. Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms." Finding undead spawned by other means requires you to make an attempt to either command them or do diplomacy to get them to do what you want. There is also the spell Command Undead that lasts 1 day/level, and has some advantages over the command undead power. You have control for a longer time, mindless get no save, and even intelligent ones get a will save (they all have good will saves, even the zombies and skellies). In the SRD, there are no permanent ways to control intelligent undead (at least as far as I know). -LN
Rotfl_and_Lol 03-01-07, 10:50 AM	Undead are commanded till they they die, character loses ability to control them, or chooses so. Undead can choose how do they listen to orders, but they can't hurt their master or disobey. If the cleric orders (standard action) "get the sword" the skeleton will grab nearest sword, but vampire can atempt to disarm friendly warrior, because cleric didn't told him which sword he should get. Intelligent undead usualy get turn resistance, so it's harder to command them, but they are commanded like normal. Nothing limits time of commanding. It's not imba. Wizard can control your mindless undead with 2 lvl spell (no save for them). Clerics can destroy them. Intelligent undead will seek to betray you. Dread Necro without fellow undead is buffed commoner.
ciryx2k 03-01-07, 04:21 PM	Undead are commanded till they they die, character loses ability to control them, or chooses so. Undead can choose how do they listen to orders, but they can't hurt their master or disobey. If the cleric orders (standard action) "get the sword" the skeleton will grab nearest sword, but vampire can atempt to disarm friendly warrior, because cleric didn't told him which sword he should get. Intelligent undead usualy get turn resistance, so it's harder to command them, but they are commanded like normal. Nothing limits time of commanding. It's not imba. Wizard can control your mindless undead with 2 lvl spell (no save for them). Clerics can destroy them. Intelligent undead will seek to betray you. Dread Necro without fellow undead is buffed commoner. After going and checking the SRD, as near as I can tell, this is correct. Here's what SRD has to say: Rebuked A rebuked undead creature cowers as if in awe (attack rolls against the creature get a +2 bonus). The effect lasts 10 rounds. Commanded A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones. While rebuked states that it only lasts 10 rounds, commanded never specifies a time limit. In fact, I feel, it kind of implies it lasting as long as the cleric wants when it says that he can only control a number of undead with HD equal to his level (class or character it doesn't specify), and has to drop old ones to command new ones. Again, this is only an implication that I see. It doesn't actually come out and say it is unending, but I'd agree with that assumption.