Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheBitterFrost 04-28-07, 02:57 PM	Hi Folks, What happens when an undead creature a PC controls, such as a shadow, can create spawn which it itself can control? Does the PC transitively gain control of the undead's spawn as well? Thanks!
SD 04-28-07, 08:22 PM	You gain control by proxy, not direct control. You can command your shadow to commands its spawns to do things, but if you yell at the spawns without your middleman they'll just look at you funny. Thus, have teleporting handy in case your shadow dies.
JellyPooga 04-28-07, 09:03 PM	And always remember to order your spawn to order their spawn not to attack you...ever (unless you want them to). Oh...and don't forget to include a clause in this order that perpetuates it down the chain of command (so you don't get the spawn of the spawn of the spawn of your spawn attacking you). But still keep that Teleport handy...
Kuronue 04-29-07, 06:32 PM	That's why it's fun to play the Master Vampire - the vampire with a dozen spawn under it's power whose own master has long since been vanquished. Then those spawn each control a half dozen spawn (being younger)....
TheBitterFrost 04-29-07, 08:45 PM	Excellent, guys. Thanks for the help.
epifreak 04-30-07, 12:17 PM	So what happens if you control a shadow, forget to order it to order its spawn never to attack you, and subsequently get slain by one of its spawn? You now control a shadow whose spawn (who it controls) controls you. I just found a new infinite loop. I suppose the hillarity of this is that you can order your controled shadow to order its spawn never to give you an order, provided the initial shadow doesn't think of this tactic first and order its spawn to order you to never give it orders. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I think too damn much.
mvincent 04-30-07, 12:39 PM	For reference, here is a related FAQ answer: "If a cleric commands a shadow, and that shadow then spawns other shadows, is the cleric also in control of the newly spawned shadows? Strictly speaking, the cleric does not have “mental control” over any shadows spawned by the one he commands (and so on down the chain), since he didn’t use rebuke undead to command them. He can indirectly control these undead by issuing instructions to the one he does command, but if that creature isn’t present, the cleric would have no influence over the newly spawned shadows. This trick shouldn’t allow a cleric to bypass the normal limits for commanded undead. The Sage sees two reasonable house rules for handling this situation: 1. Count these indirectly influenced undead toward the cleric’s limit of HD commanded (PH 159); relinquishing command of such a creature renders it no longer under control of its creator. 2. Rule that newly created spawn aren’t under the control of the commanded undead; they’re immediately free-willed." I'm not sure that I completely agree with it. I think just noting that you are not in charge of spawned undead should be enough of a deterrent to trying to create your own personal army.