Cover rules and using them in fights [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cover rules and using them in fights [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eater_Of_Souls
06-28-07, 04:42 AM So I had my characters being waylaid in an inn and they barred the door shut.
So my bad guys broke in the door and one of the players decide to use the bow, ok so far but here comes the problem.
The scene:
BG is at the door fighting with the melee guys and is (in my opinion) out side of the doorway thus receiving cover of 10% from a player using a bow from the stairs.
Argument was that since there is already -4 for shooting in melee cover rules shouldn't apply and that being a bit out of sight and fighting with the melee blocking sight is not considered as cover which in my opinion sounds a bit absurd.
Anyway I gave in the argument with archer (since he has GMed a lot longer then I have, since 1st ed AD&D actually).

So in order to avoid these situations in the future I figured to ask how would you had handled the situation and can you actually use the cover rules in situation I just described ?
Leilond
06-28-07, 06:02 AM So I had my characters being waylaid in an inn and they barred the door shut.
So my bad guys broke in the door and one of the players decide to use the bow, ok so far but here comes the problem.
The scene:
BG is at the door fighting with the melee guys and is (in my opinion) out side of the doorway thus receiving cover of 10% from a player using a bow from the stairs.
Argument was that since there is already -4 for shooting in melee cover rules shouldn't apply and that being a bit out of sight and fighting with the melee blocking sight is not considered as cover which in my opinion sounds a bit absurd.
Anyway I gave in the argument with archer (since he has GMed a lot longer then I have, since 1st ed AD&D actually).

So in order to avoid these situations in the future I figured to ask how would you had handled the situation and can you actually use the cover rules in situation I just described ?

Shoting in melee give -4 to hit to the attacker. This has nothing to do with "cover". You still have -4 to hit if you shot in melee from behind your opponent, without anyone on your line

Cover give +4 to AC to the defender, and it isn't directly related with "melee". You can recive cover from a wall.

If you shot in melee from a point that there isn't anyone between you and your opponent, you recive -4 to hit
If you shot in melee from a point that there is someone between you and your opponent, you recive -4 to hit and the opponent recive +4 to AC

The two rules are independent. You and there is a feat for each of them
"Precise shot" to ignore "firing into melee" and "improved precise shot" to ignore cover
Eater_Of_Souls
06-28-07, 06:15 AM Ok so what about the miss chance from cover or just ditch it and use miss chance only when its real evident ?
Ced666
06-28-07, 07:11 AM I think you are mixing cover and concealment.
A miss chance only applies when the target is 'concealed' (meaning he is in a fog or heavy smoke, ...).
Cover is when you take advantage of 'a structure' (like a wall or even a creature) to partially 'hide' yourself.
Leilond
06-28-07, 07:37 AM Ok so what about the miss chance from cover or just ditch it and use miss chance only when its real evident ?

Cover do not provide miss chance, only bonus to AC

Concealment provide miss chance.

Cover: having something that block the line of attack (a wall, a rock, a men)

Concealment: being not able to see you well (fog, low light, invisibility, blindness)

Both still apply normally regardless of the melee. So you can shot against someone that
1) Is fighting melee
2) Is coverd by your ally
3) In low light environment
Result
1) -4 to hit
2) Opponent get +4 AC
3) 20% fail after you score a hit

Precise shot prevent you the -4 to hit
Improved precise shot prevent you the other two issues

You can overcome the cover (+4 AC) by moving on the grid so that nothing is in the line from you and your opponent
Eater_Of_Souls
06-28-07, 08:37 AM Thanks guys I'll give some pondering on this one but it should be clear now :cheer:
Ced666
06-28-07, 08:47 AM Concealment: being not able to see you well (fog, low light, invisibility, blindness)

As far as I know, concealment is different than being invisible (or blindness). The rules are quite different for both cases.
Leilond
06-28-07, 09:38 AM As far as I know, concealment is different than being invisible (or blindness). The rules are quite different for both cases.

An invisible character has total concealment against you
If you're blind everyone has total concealment against you
Kouk
06-28-07, 10:38 AM Thanks guys I'll give some pondering on this one but it should be clear now :cheer:

Reread the cover rules in the Combat chapter. Everyone has to review the rules, especially coming from different games with different rules.
Kaurus
06-28-07, 11:59 AM You can overcome the cover (+4 AC) by moving on the grid so that nothing is in the line from you and your opponent

This is also true for concealment (miss chance) !

SRD, Combat Modifiers:
"To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment."
Some_call_me_Tim
06-28-07, 12:46 PM Both still apply normally regardless of the melee. So you can shot against someone that
1) Is fighting melee
2) Is coverd by your ally
3) In low light environment
Result
1) -4 to hit
2) Opponent get +4 AC
3) 20% fail after you score a hit

Precise shot prevent you the -4 to hit
Improved precise shot prevent you the other two issuesJust to be clear, I want to point out that improved precise shot will help with concealment, but not total concealment.
Inigo Carmine
06-28-07, 01:41 PM Just to be clear, I want to point out that improved precise shot will help with concealment, but not total concealment.

;). To get real technical, it doesn't help with total cover either.
Leilond
06-28-07, 03:36 PM This is also true for concealment (miss chance) !

SRD, Combat Modifiers:
"To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment."

Sure, but if my square is covered with "fog" you cannot avoid it in no way, becaus the line from my corner to ALL the corner must be free from concealmente

Yes, but tecnically, if you are BEHIND something that provide concealmente, I can move so that no more "darkness" (for instance) will be between me and you

And yes to the other poster too. The "improved precise shot" do not help against total concealment, or total cover. But this is written directly in the description of the feat, so I think no one can misunderstand that

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eater_Of_Souls 06-28-07, 04:42 AM	So I had my characters being waylaid in an inn and they barred the door shut. So my bad guys broke in the door and one of the players decide to use the bow, ok so far but here comes the problem. The scene: BG is at the door fighting with the melee guys and is (in my opinion) out side of the doorway thus receiving cover of 10% from a player using a bow from the stairs. Argument was that since there is already -4 for shooting in melee cover rules shouldn't apply and that being a bit out of sight and fighting with the melee blocking sight is not considered as cover which in my opinion sounds a bit absurd. Anyway I gave in the argument with archer (since he has GMed a lot longer then I have, since 1st ed AD&D actually). So in order to avoid these situations in the future I figured to ask how would you had handled the situation and can you actually use the cover rules in situation I just described ?
Leilond 06-28-07, 06:02 AM	So I had my characters being waylaid in an inn and they barred the door shut. So my bad guys broke in the door and one of the players decide to use the bow, ok so far but here comes the problem. The scene: BG is at the door fighting with the melee guys and is (in my opinion) out side of the doorway thus receiving cover of 10% from a player using a bow from the stairs. Argument was that since there is already -4 for shooting in melee cover rules shouldn't apply and that being a bit out of sight and fighting with the melee blocking sight is not considered as cover which in my opinion sounds a bit absurd. Anyway I gave in the argument with archer (since he has GMed a lot longer then I have, since 1st ed AD&D actually). So in order to avoid these situations in the future I figured to ask how would you had handled the situation and can you actually use the cover rules in situation I just described ? Shoting in melee give -4 to hit to the attacker. This has nothing to do with "cover". You still have -4 to hit if you shot in melee from behind your opponent, without anyone on your line Cover give +4 to AC to the defender, and it isn't directly related with "melee". You can recive cover from a wall. If you shot in melee from a point that there isn't anyone between you and your opponent, you recive -4 to hit If you shot in melee from a point that there is someone between you and your opponent, you recive -4 to hit and the opponent recive +4 to AC The two rules are independent. You and there is a feat for each of them "Precise shot" to ignore "firing into melee" and "improved precise shot" to ignore cover
Eater_Of_Souls 06-28-07, 06:15 AM	Ok so what about the miss chance from cover or just ditch it and use miss chance only when its real evident ?
Ced666 06-28-07, 07:11 AM	I think you are mixing cover and concealment. A miss chance only applies when the target is 'concealed' (meaning he is in a fog or heavy smoke, ...). Cover is when you take advantage of 'a structure' (like a wall or even a creature) to partially 'hide' yourself.
Leilond 06-28-07, 07:37 AM	Ok so what about the miss chance from cover or just ditch it and use miss chance only when its real evident ? Cover do not provide miss chance, only bonus to AC Concealment provide miss chance. Cover: having something that block the line of attack (a wall, a rock, a men) Concealment: being not able to see you well (fog, low light, invisibility, blindness) Both still apply normally regardless of the melee. So you can shot against someone that 1) Is fighting melee 2) Is coverd by your ally 3) In low light environment Result 1) -4 to hit 2) Opponent get +4 AC 3) 20% fail after you score a hit Precise shot prevent you the -4 to hit Improved precise shot prevent you the other two issues You can overcome the cover (+4 AC) by moving on the grid so that nothing is in the line from you and your opponent
Eater_Of_Souls 06-28-07, 08:37 AM	Thanks guys I'll give some pondering on this one but it should be clear now :cheer:
Ced666 06-28-07, 08:47 AM	Concealment: being not able to see you well (fog, low light, invisibility, blindness) As far as I know, concealment is different than being invisible (or blindness). The rules are quite different for both cases.
Leilond 06-28-07, 09:38 AM	As far as I know, concealment is different than being invisible (or blindness). The rules are quite different for both cases. An invisible character has total concealment against you If you're blind everyone has total concealment against you
Kouk 06-28-07, 10:38 AM	Thanks guys I'll give some pondering on this one but it should be clear now :cheer: Reread the cover rules in the Combat chapter. Everyone has to review the rules, especially coming from different games with different rules.
Kaurus 06-28-07, 11:59 AM	You can overcome the cover (+4 AC) by moving on the grid so that nothing is in the line from you and your opponent This is also true for concealment (miss chance) ! SRD, Combat Modifiers: "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment."
Some_call_me_Tim 06-28-07, 12:46 PM	Both still apply normally regardless of the melee. So you can shot against someone that 1) Is fighting melee 2) Is coverd by your ally 3) In low light environment Result 1) -4 to hit 2) Opponent get +4 AC 3) 20% fail after you score a hit Precise shot prevent you the -4 to hit Improved precise shot prevent you the other two issuesJust to be clear, I want to point out that improved precise shot will help with concealment, but not total concealment.
Inigo Carmine 06-28-07, 01:41 PM	Just to be clear, I want to point out that improved precise shot will help with concealment, but not total concealment. ;). To get real technical, it doesn't help with total cover either.
Leilond 06-28-07, 03:36 PM	This is also true for concealment (miss chance) ! SRD, Combat Modifiers: "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment." Sure, but if my square is covered with "fog" you cannot avoid it in no way, becaus the line from my corner to ALL the corner must be free from concealmente Yes, but tecnically, if you are BEHIND something that provide concealmente, I can move so that no more "darkness" (for instance) will be between me and you And yes to the other poster too. The "improved precise shot" do not help against total concealment, or total cover. But this is written directly in the description of the feat, so I think no one can misunderstand that