CR Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR Confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AnimusArcanum
12-05-07, 04:55 PM My group (of 4-7 players) and I have just started a new campaign and we're already a few games in. After two slow sessions and a burning brothel later I finally managed to coax them out of town. A while back I mapped out a few of the 'random' encounters but recently I've been noticing that my challenges are either too hard or too easy (usually leaning on the easier side). I started the players at third level and unfortunately I'm not quite sure what challenge rating they should be going up against or how to calculate a mixed group of such enemies.
PenderGrass
12-05-07, 05:07 PM Having a group that is anywhere between 4 and 7 players will be hard to make suggestions.

Even further, your group of players may or may not have stuff from outside core, feat choices will also affect their effectiveness, skill rankings will play a role as well - not to forget the players' tactical level.

Then, after all that, you will have your own style of play to contend with.

CRs are a generalized system and should never be seen as concrete.

As any game progresses, the PCs will blossom out beyond what the CR was tested with - it is impossible for WotC to have accomodated for all the different factors that are out there. And the longer you go, the more complicated it gets.

With all that said, I would take your 4 most trustworthy players (those that show up the most) and use their PCs as a starting point. This should give you a general idea of what encounter level the group is ready for.

Once you do this, choose a few monsters and test them by yourself with copies of your group's PC sheets. You should know - by now - each players style of combat and role-playing. Judge how the encounter will-play out based on that info.

On game night, adjust for the number of other players that show up.

Remember, it is OK for them to waltz through some encounters and have major difficulty in others. That is the nature of the beast.

:dragon:
*****
AnimusArcanum
12-05-07, 05:20 PM I've been putting them up against an collective level of 3. Like a gang of three lizardfolk.
weasel0
12-05-07, 05:23 PM a larger group of kobolds would prove fun... say between 6-12, if lower #s-most have cover, if a bigger #- only a few have cover, and they're all spread out.
AnimusArcanum
12-05-07, 05:35 PM I was hoping to learn some sort of formula to figure out what range i should have their CRs against. And how to calculate the groups level and mixed enemies.
StevenO
12-05-07, 07:26 PM Reread Chapers 2 and 3 in your DMG.

What you are really looking for is what Encounter Level (EL) to throw at your party. Granted that for a single creature CR = EL for multiple creatures look at table 3-1. For a given CR creature each time the number doubles you add +2 to the EL. To increase the EL with a single creature by only +1 add another creature with CR -2 of the first.

In general a party of four is expected to handle ELs = average party level (APL) with a variation of -4 (easy encounters) to +4 (TPK threat). With your larger party size you should consider your APL to be a little higher; I'd say +1 for six members or +2 with eight so choose what works for you. Now just because a larger party can handle a bigger EL does NOT mean you should throw creatures with a bigger CR at them; instead you should keep the same maximum CR a party of four would face (APL+4) but add more creatures as shown in table 3-1 to get the needed EL.

When trying to find the EL of a group of mixed CRs I normally try making subsets whos EL I can calculate and then use those ELs as CRs when combining the subgroups into a final EL. For example an encounter with four CR 1 and two CR 4 leaders I'd assign an EL as follows:

4x CR1 = EL4 which is approximately a CR 4 that leads to 3x CR4 = EL 7
You could also combine two CR 4 = EL 6 and then go EL 6 + EL 4 = EL 7 for the same end result.

The greater the variation from "normal" the less accurate the CR/EL system is. Besides the challenges of larger/smaller groups a party optimizing every sourcebook (Official and 3rd party) and with stat equivalents to a 64 point buy will be substancially more powerful than a party filled with poor builds and low (sub PB25) but legal stats.
AnimusArcanum
12-05-07, 09:17 PM This is basically how I've been going about the encounters, maybe I'm not effectively using them. Any suggestions?
PenderGrass
12-05-07, 09:24 PM Have you ever bowled?

Sometimes it is easier to adjust where you are standing instead of adjusting how you are rolling the ball.

:dragon:
*****

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AnimusArcanum 12-05-07, 04:55 PM	My group (of 4-7 players) and I have just started a new campaign and we're already a few games in. After two slow sessions and a burning brothel later I finally managed to coax them out of town. A while back I mapped out a few of the 'random' encounters but recently I've been noticing that my challenges are either too hard or too easy (usually leaning on the easier side). I started the players at third level and unfortunately I'm not quite sure what challenge rating they should be going up against or how to calculate a mixed group of such enemies.
PenderGrass 12-05-07, 05:07 PM	Having a group that is anywhere between 4 and 7 players will be hard to make suggestions. Even further, your group of players may or may not have stuff from outside core, feat choices will also affect their effectiveness, skill rankings will play a role as well - not to forget the players' tactical level. Then, after all that, you will have your own style of play to contend with. CRs are a generalized system and should never be seen as concrete. As any game progresses, the PCs will blossom out beyond what the CR was tested with - it is impossible for WotC to have accomodated for all the different factors that are out there. And the longer you go, the more complicated it gets. With all that said, I would take your 4 most trustworthy players (those that show up the most) and use their PCs as a starting point. This should give you a general idea of what encounter level the group is ready for. Once you do this, choose a few monsters and test them by yourself with copies of your group's PC sheets. You should know - by now - each players style of combat and role-playing. Judge how the encounter will-play out based on that info. On game night, adjust for the number of other players that show up. Remember, it is OK for them to waltz through some encounters and have major difficulty in others. That is the nature of the beast. :dragon: *****
AnimusArcanum 12-05-07, 05:20 PM	I've been putting them up against an collective level of 3. Like a gang of three lizardfolk.
weasel0 12-05-07, 05:23 PM	a larger group of kobolds would prove fun... say between 6-12, if lower #s-most have cover, if a bigger #- only a few have cover, and they're all spread out.
AnimusArcanum 12-05-07, 05:35 PM	I was hoping to learn some sort of formula to figure out what range i should have their CRs against. And how to calculate the groups level and mixed enemies.
StevenO 12-05-07, 07:26 PM	Reread Chapers 2 and 3 in your DMG. What you are really looking for is what Encounter Level (EL) to throw at your party. Granted that for a single creature CR = EL for multiple creatures look at table 3-1. For a given CR creature each time the number doubles you add +2 to the EL. To increase the EL with a single creature by only +1 add another creature with CR -2 of the first. In general a party of four is expected to handle ELs = average party level (APL) with a variation of -4 (easy encounters) to +4 (TPK threat). With your larger party size you should consider your APL to be a little higher; I'd say +1 for six members or +2 with eight so choose what works for you. Now just because a larger party can handle a bigger EL does NOT mean you should throw creatures with a bigger CR at them; instead you should keep the same maximum CR a party of four would face (APL+4) but add more creatures as shown in table 3-1 to get the needed EL. When trying to find the EL of a group of mixed CRs I normally try making subsets whos EL I can calculate and then use those ELs as CRs when combining the subgroups into a final EL. For example an encounter with four CR 1 and two CR 4 leaders I'd assign an EL as follows: 4x CR1 = EL4 which is approximately a CR 4 that leads to 3x CR4 = EL 7 You could also combine two CR 4 = EL 6 and then go EL 6 + EL 4 = EL 7 for the same end result. The greater the variation from "normal" the less accurate the CR/EL system is. Besides the challenges of larger/smaller groups a party optimizing every sourcebook (Official and 3rd party) and with stat equivalents to a 64 point buy will be substancially more powerful than a party filled with poor builds and low (sub PB25) but legal stats.
AnimusArcanum 12-05-07, 09:17 PM	This is basically how I've been going about the encounters, maybe I'm not effectively using them. Any suggestions?
PenderGrass 12-05-07, 09:24 PM	Have you ever bowled? Sometimes it is easier to adjust where you are standing instead of adjusting how you are rolling the ball. :dragon: *****