Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gnomeslayer 05-18-07, 02:38 AM	ok, so here's my dumb noob question. I was under the impression that for every 1 level of a character, there should be ~1 point of CR (give or take a couple) from the monsters for balance purposes. However, I have a group of people and I was looking through the monster manual 1 to get a little idea of what to throw in. I figure, look for around 8-ish. Gray Render, 125hp. I don't think this can be right, maybe someone can point me to the correct page in the DMG with the appropriate CR for a group? Now my cop-out: I'm usually a player, and don't ask the DM what CR the monster we just beat was, as this would make the game lame, and I don't particularly care. I figured I'd try running a game with a couple people that are never free during normal game hours in my town that I live in close proximity with. So should I go get out the gray render mini, or am I doing this horribly wrong? Thanks, and yes, it's ok to laugh.
Karui_Kage 05-18-07, 03:21 AM	I think you're doing it right, if it's a party of four 8th level characters, then one CR 8 creature would be an ok fight. Now if you're doing it one for one...then that's wrong. The CR references a group of 4 characters whose level is equal to the CR. A CR 1 encounter is a decent encounter for a group of four 1st level adventurers, a CR 12 encounter is a challenging encounter for a group of four 10th levels...etc.
WilwarinAndamar 05-18-07, 03:50 AM	It depends, though. Our party of 3- & 4-level characters were able to defeat CR 5 monsters one-on-one (it was an gladiator arena-style battle). As a rule of thumb, though, your reasoning is right. Go off of the level of your highest character. If you're stuck, this helps: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20010320b. I've used it before, and it's good in a hurry.
Gnomeslayer 05-18-07, 04:07 AM	I think you're doing it right, if it's a party of four 8th level characters, then one CR 8 creature would be an ok fight. Now if you're doing it one for one...then that's wrong. The CR references a group of 4 characters whose level is equal to the CR. A CR 1 encounter is a decent encounter for a group of four 1st level adventurers, a CR 12 encounter is a challenging encounter for a group of four 10th levels...etc. ok, I knew it was so wrong. Some of the stuff I was looking at... Though, kudos to my group then, as I put them against way too much stuff and they came out without scratches. Thank you so much for the clarification, I always miss little stuff like that when trying to interpret the rules.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-18-07, 08:16 AM	On average, four characters should be able to handle an opponent of equal CR while using about 20% of their resources (it is not intended to be an even match). This varies a lot with the particulars of the creature and the party, though.
Gnomeslayer 05-18-07, 01:12 PM	On a side note, I believe a lot of confusion stemmed from a barbarian. The person who plays it is a VERY skilled player. I think she may be more skilled as a player than I am a DM. Maybe she just knows all my tricks, as she's my roommate. Anyways, I put them up against a few creatures as a minor skirmish, and her greatsword+cleave at 1st level (human barb.) was destroying quite a bit of my little goblins. It ended up that ~CR 6 total (After adding up the CRs of the little beasts) would be a challenging fight. Yikes. Even with poor rolls she smacked down a whole group of 'em. I really didn't want to set them up against something big like a gray render, and I know I should adjust accordingly to level (I was wondering why the mage was so upset during the second fight. "Magic Missile" "hmm, 4, ok, next?"). Maybe I should just up a couple stats, and not change the cr's (they were facing gnolls and I upped a couple cr's to 2, gave the fighters more hp's & str, gave the archers more hp's and dex. Well, there's my ramblings, if anyone can give a little bit of help, it'd be great. Thanks. (Maybe I should just disallow greatswords+cleave at 1st level, haha.)
goawayugh 05-18-07, 01:40 PM	6 CR 1 creatures does not equal CR 6. You don't just add together all CR of each monster involved in the battle.
goawayugh 05-18-07, 01:42 PM	Also, melee type tend to own battles at very low levels. Mid levels is sort of even. And high levels....I see no point in NOT playing a spellcaster. But of course that's just my opinion.
Gnomeslayer 05-18-07, 01:57 PM	Also, melee type tend to own battles at very low levels. Mid levels is sort of even. And high levels....I see no point in NOT playing a spellcaster. But of course that's just my opinion. OK, so the CR just equals monster, and how many you put is based on party crunchy goodness? I really shouldn't DM... By the way, she was against many bumped up to cr2 gnolls (1 CR3 I forgot to mention.), and I was speculating the ease at which she dominated their souls. Hit, cleave, critical. Next round, hit, cleave, hit. That's the end of the battle. I feel like such a bad DM, nothing seems to work out like it did in 2nd ed. I guess that's kinda the point. Laughingly destroying the DM's dreams he put a good week into. The laughing....
Edana 05-18-07, 02:04 PM	It would help if you could give a short list of your players' characters. Do you have the 'typical' group of 4 players, all with 1st level characters? How well do they play together? Groups that work as a unit will tend to be able to take on tougher challenges than those that essentially do their own thing in combat. If you're not super comfortable with all the rules, but one of your players is (which is what it sounds like with your barbarian player), you should take advantage of their knowledge. Get her to explain things you don't understand, or have her show you the relevant part in the rule books. Goawayugh is correct about CR's not being added together to determine the challenge though. In general, doubling the number of (same) creatures adds 2 to the encounter level. And a group of 4 people is intended to fight encounters that are at the same CR as the party level. (4 1st level characters should fight a single CR 1 as an appropriate enounter). I find this Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) to be quite handy in esitmating whether something is appropriate for a group or not. Even if you have a large group, you have to be very careful about using monsters more than 3-4 CR's over the party level, because they will often be capable of killing characters in a single round, or will be completely impervious to the characters' attacks. Also, how were you increasing the gnolls to CR 2? Did you add class levels to them? If so, what class did you add? At low levels a raging barbarian with a greatsword is quite capable of taking out enemies with a single attack, and intelligent enemies (like gnolls, they may not be geniuses, but they're not stupid) will do their best to avoid this. Ultimately, if your players are having fun playing, you're doing something right, and you can always get better with practice :). So, don't feel too bad about not knowing everything as a first time DM. A lot of things are best learned simply by using them and seeing how they work.
Gnomeslayer 05-19-07, 05:31 PM	It would help if you could give a short list of your players' characters. Do you have the 'typical' group of 4 players, all with 1st level characters? How well do they play together? Groups that work as a unit will tend to be able to take on tougher challenges than those that essentially do their own thing in combat. If you're not super comfortable with all the rules, but one of your players is (which is what it sounds like with your barbarian player), you should take advantage of their knowledge. Get her to explain things you don't understand, or have her show you the relevant part in the rule books. Goawayugh is correct about CR's not being added together to determine the challenge though. In general, doubling the number of (same) creatures adds 2 to the encounter level. And a group of 4 people is intended to fight encounters that are at the same CR as the party level. (4 1st level characters should fight a single CR 1 as an appropriate enounter). I find this Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) to be quite handy in esitmating whether something is appropriate for a group or not. Even if you have a large group, you have to be very careful about using monsters more than 3-4 CR's over the party level, because they will often be capable of killing characters in a single round, or will be completely impervious to the characters' attacks. Also, how were you increasing the gnolls to CR 2? Did you add class levels to them? If so, what class did you add? At low levels a raging barbarian with a greatsword is quite capable of taking out enemies with a single attack, and intelligent enemies (like gnolls, they may not be geniuses, but they're not stupid) will do their best to avoid this. Ultimately, if your players are having fun playing, you're doing something right, and you can always get better with practice :). So, don't feel too bad about not knowing everything as a first time DM. A lot of things are best learned simply by using them and seeing how they work. OK, I'll try to cover everything, as I'm digging the advice. I never really thought of myself as the DM, but I feel lately that role's being handed to me more, and I should study up as best I can. So here goes, at the start of the adventure, The stats were as follows: Lvl 1 human barbarian. Greatsword, lots o' hit points, power attack, cleave. Lvl 1 elf wizard. Meh. Couple spells, low hp, generic/standard Lvl 1 1/2ling ranger. Mounted Combat feat, kind of an odd player. "well, I'll buy a war dog after I do some adventuring! Then I'll already have the feat." Lvl 1 human cleric of heironeous(sp). I tried running the gnolls very intelligently, but they worked as a unit better than I had expected, as in the "real world", they bicker constantly. The barbarian wasn't even raging during this battle, and with the Protect. from E, had an effective AC of 18 (studded leath, +3 dex, +2 PFE) that the gnolls just couldn't seem to hit, a huge factor being my poor rolls. The ranger meat-shielded the wizzy whenever a gnoll got too close and stood his ground pretty well, having no melee he just waited for the barbarian to make her way over. As far as pumping the gnolls, I upped their strength for the fighters, dex for the archers, hp's, equipment, and gave them class levels, all in fighter. Maybe I should have given the archers intel and changed them to gnoll casters? Auto damage on the MMissiles... I felt afterwards that upping the CR to 2 from 1 felt a little low for how tough they ended up being. Despite all my best efforts, they came out way on top, despite there being way too many pumped gnolls, and a leader bumped substantially more than the rest. Looking back, and comparing, it seems way over-powered, but after the skirmishes to test the strength of the PC's, it ended up that I needed to up the challenge quite a bit. Are there any alternatives than treating them as if they were a level higher than they are? I think the other challenges (traps with no rogue didn't add up, though I did put in 1 or 2, and they still dealed with them fine.) were pretty fair and balanced, but as far as combat.... Any suggestions? Another game tomorrow, and I've been messing around with some CR3's (tempted to put in a magmin, that would make her so mad if her sword got melted.) Any ideas for challenges specifically suited to the characters? Preferrably if monster, something released in DDM or Reaper? (I can sub in, but it just makes it easier.) Thanks all for the suggestions thus far, they've really helped me see where I'm going wrong, and I'm sure my players'll appreciate a more knowlegable DM, so thank you for them too, heh.:D
AtmaWeapon 05-19-07, 09:46 PM	CR, In a Nutshell: A monster with a CR equal to the average party level is supposed to represent a challenge that an archetypical (IE: Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric) party with "standard" statistics (Falling into the 25-30 point area if you were using point buy) and appropriate wealth (see the table in the DMG) can defeat whilst expending approximately 20% of thier resources (spells per day, HP, special abilities, etc etc). In general, adding another monster of the same type as the first adds +2 to CR. For example, from earlier, a grey render (cr8) plus another grey render (cr8) is a CR 10 encounter. Lets say, for example, you wanted to put the party against two werewolves (CR 3 each) and two Wererats (Cr 2 each). First, you'd take the werewolves and figure them out, as they have the highest CR. So you add the CR3, +2 for an additional, and get CR5. Then you factor in the wererats. There's two of 'em, so CR2, +2 for additional of the same type, for CR 4. Now you take the CR 5 (For werewolves) and factor in the CR4. not quite equal, but still better then base, so +1. The total for 2 wererats and 2 werewolves is ~CR6, meaning this would be about 20% of resources for a level 6 party. Here's the breakdown I like to use: CR = Party Level: 20% resources. CR = Party Level+1: Uphill battle. 50% resources, chance of death rears head. CR = Party Level+2: Very difficult. 80-100% resources. Very high chance of PC death. CR = Party Level+3: 100% resources, plus backups like potions, wands, etc. At least 1 death almost guaranteed. CR+4: TPK almost guaranteed without Deus Ex Machina.
Nom 05-19-07, 10:39 PM	At first level in a straight up melee encounter, barbarians and fighters will go through fodder very easily. Meanwhile, wizards don't have enough spells to make a sustained difference, though a few dazes or a well placed colour spray or sleep or ray of enfeeblement can turn an encounter.
otakutaylor 05-20-07, 08:03 PM	just a couple of things I want to say: PC's are supposed to win, and sometimes they outmatch their opponants. Believe me, the fighter in your group will welcome a wholesale melee slaughter every once and a while. Don't always make the enemies toughter, make the battlefield tougher. Fighting on an incline gives the PC's who either have climb/balance dominance vs. the attacking orcs. Even more the Wizard and Archer, who can take a single round to find a good stop and be a living turret will shine compared to the barbarian, who's having a hard time reaching each individual enemy. At low levels, it's rare to find something the fighter type isn't great at killing, but there are some things. Enemies in trees, or flying can humble a fighter, or an animated object like a office desk, a barbarian has to hit hardness with every strike, but the acid weilding wizard deals signifigant damage. CR does mean that a group of 4 equal level PC's could fight it, but it doesn't say who will excel at the fight. It's up to the DM to through the right things, as well as the right situations, to make each member feel useful. oh, and if you really wanna give your Barbarian a tough fight, remember: a night-fight with no moon, or a fog rolling in gives everyone (the barbarian too) a ~50% concealment if they aren't carrying a lightsource. your barbarian's strikes in the dark might be powerful, but if he doesn't make contact, even a rabbit can put up a fight.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-21-07, 01:12 AM	After adding up the CRs of the little beasts CR's go exponentially. Each 2 levels of CR is (approximately) double the strength. So the multipliers go: cr difference / number of creatures 0 - 1 1 - 1.4 2 - 2 3 - 2.8 4 - 4 5 - 5.65 6 - 8 7 - 11.31 8 - 16 9 - 22.62 10 - 32 11 - 45.25 12 - 64 one goblin is CR 1/3, so (in theory) 32 goblins will be CR 3 and a bit. A balanced and appropriately equipped 3rd-level party should therefore be able to clean up 30 goblins no probs (hint: glitterdust and sleep them and have the rogue wade in, sneak-attacking the sleeping and blinded ones, while the fighter and cleric mop up the ones that saved. If any of 'em get close to the mage, use burning hands or colour spray).
AQuebman 05-21-07, 08:36 AM	CR can be a little weird but after working with it for a while it does what it's intended to do. The other thing you will figure out after a while is how to handle it along with your group. If you have a group of skilled players who know what they are doing, sometimes you can send harder challenges at them. The other item to consider is location, situation, time, positioning all are factors not weighed into CR off the bat. I've sent CR's 3 higher than a group and watched the group mop the floor with it because of those factors. Also consider the group's ability or inability to get away.
Gnomeslayer 05-21-07, 02:12 PM	Thanks, those were awesome suggestions. The game was last night, and I put them against a couple CR 2's. One thing I am curious about, is at the end I put a couple humans at the end (2 fighters and a wizard) at level 4/5 and I counted the CR 1 lower than level, making them CR 3/4. Is that right? They were pretty tough, and took a little bit of tactics to beat. Unfortunately, they enlarged the barbarian with a greatsword (3d6+8 damage) who raged, and crit'd my fighter, and cleaved into the other fighter. The mage missed her scorching rays, and I didn't put many magic items on her (scrolls, wands, etc.) because I think I may have given the PC's a bit too much last time. I just need to get the formula of what's too strong down (I dm'ed barely in 2nd ed, and I can still tell you what's tough against what, it took me all of 2 seconds to figure out.) I do like the CR's better, as it'll take me a while to learn, but once I know, it seems to make the entire game easier. I did fudge up a little, and throw a couple strahd zombies in there (42hp and hard to kill 11....took quite a while) and didn't think too much of it. My next game's next weekend (they give me beer, I can't say no!) and now I've got a 3rd level wizard, barbarian, ranger, and cleric. I'm looking through CR3-5's, but can't really find anything that would suit the climate. I may as well just run an underdark run. I bought the book....
darkeness 05-21-07, 02:43 PM	Generally characer levels = CR 1:1 while NPC levels the CR is level-1. Here is a trick I use to buff up NPC's for a fight without giving the party a bunch of magic treasure: Magic Tatooes Feat: scribe magic tatoo 1 tatoo = 1 spell, can be made to be cast as a swift action for 10xcost. That is a quick breakdown. I make the feat so expensive that PC's opt out of using them while NPC's (who don't have to wory about wealth) can make great use of them. This is generally for higher levels to create a challange for levels 12+
CaineTheInsaine 05-21-07, 03:26 PM	I run games that often involve a cheater (how many 25+ rolls in one night can you get at level 4?) a mix-maxer, a power-gamer.. well, lets just say I'm used to running games where I have several problem players, whom I've just learned how to deal with. (Know the rules better then the rule's lawyer, mix max the bad guys, etc.) So, I've had lots of practice escalating and deflating CR's. So let me throw my advice in. Whend ealing with a single creature, the CR of it's encounter is equal to it's CR. Add another creature, and the CR goes up 1. So, Orc, level 1 Barbarian. is CR 1. Two orcs, level 1 barbarians, are CR 2. After adding the first extra creature, you increase the CR by 2 for every time you double the number of creatures. So, the orcs, 4 of them are a CR 4. 6, CR 6. Straight forward when dealing with CR1 creatures. And with creatures with fraction crs. (Kobolds, cr 1/3. 3=CR1, 6CR=2, etc.) When you talk about things with higher CRs, the same rule applies. Double the numbers, add 2 to the CR. CR3 Wyrmling Red. 1=CR 3, 2=CR 4, 4=CR 6, 8=CR 8. After you've doubled the number of creatures about 3, maybe 4 times, its useless. Once the PCs are that high of level, no matter how many kobolds you send at 'em, they are going to mop the floor with them.
pmurray@bigpond.com 05-22-07, 01:10 AM	Ok. Every 2 levels of CR is double the power. A single creature of CR N is equivalent to sqrt(2)^(N-1) CR 1 monsters. So to work out the CR of a group of N CR 1 monsters, then take the log of N base sqrt(2) and add one.
Gnomeslayer 05-22-07, 02:11 AM	awesome, I think I've got CR's down. As far as the magical tattoos go, that's just mean, haha. Great idea. Though my pcs aren't really being powergamer/minmax/rules lawyers, a lot of it's just skill, strategy, teamork, and good fortune. I don't really want to punish this behavior by overwhelming them, as that would be the cruddiest thing to do to them I could think of, and may break up the great team of players I inadvertantly assembled. However, I do want to propose a challenge (magical tattoos, so less treasure, for instance) while at the same time, not rewarding too much (it's so hard after having horrible groups and punishing them back in the day not to be like "you guys were great! Here's a thousand gold!" haha.). Maybe I'll start a new thread up before the next game asking for suggestions as to how to challenge without overpowering (a fine line I find myself nearly crossing frequently.). Thanks for the suggestions/help all, it is much appreciated!
otakutaylor 05-22-07, 02:48 AM	I have to ask, do your PC's have ample time between encounters to get rested, healed, and otherwise back to full strength? You wanna challenge them without a good change to get them killed, Try giving them a fight where the wizard wastes their few high level spells, the barbarian is still fatigued from raging, and the various other characters have pulled a victory out of their butts, only to be thrown into another fight almost immediately after. The Wizard is gonna be wishing he brought some more scrolls. The barbarian is gonna be pleading for the cleric to have some sort of fatigue curing spell. The rouge is gonna by wishing he stayed hidden. A fight you're not ready for (or at least less ready than usual) is a far toughter fight, yet has the same rewards as if you were ready treasure wise. Your players might even learn to thank the gods for a quiet nights rest.
darkeness 05-22-07, 07:54 AM	A fight you're not ready for (or at least less ready than usual) is a far toughter fight, yet has the same rewards as if you were ready treasure wise. Your players might even learn to thank the gods for a quiet nights rest. Good advice. I find that if you run a lot of 1/day encounters like wilderness encounters the party can wade through them more easily becsuase they can blow all their resorces on it without worrying too much about the next fight.
Frugal 05-22-07, 08:56 AM	I have to ask, do your PC's have ample time between encounters to get rested, healed, and otherwise back to full strength? You wanna challenge them without a good change to get them killed, Try giving them a fight where the wizard wastes their few high level spells, the barbarian is still fatigued from raging, and the various other characters have pulled a victory out of their butts, only to be thrown into another fight almost immediately after. Fatigue from rage ends at the end of the encounter. But, you could still do something like they're fighting an encounter, they think they've just about wrapped it up and then, look out! Reinforcements.
tiercel 05-22-07, 07:47 PM	It's a good point to make to note that CRs pretty much assume that your PCs are going to be be facing multiple (around 4 on average) encounters per day. To the extent that there are only one or two encounters in a day (especially if the PCs know or guess this), they will be a lot easier than their CR indicates as spellcasters cook off all their best spells and other characters use their 1/day or few/day abilities, 1/day items, one use items, etc. This becomes particularly important at high levels, when PCs are more likely to feel like they can just teleport away and rest any time they want, if you don't keep some kind of time pressure on them.
primemover003 05-22-07, 08:09 PM	Hate to be the stick in the mud and be nitpicky, but CR's (Challenge Rating) only refer to single creatures. When you are measuring the strength of a Group of creatures it's called EL (Encounter Level). The EL is used to determine what a suitable encounter is for a given group of adventurers. I know CR and EL confused the hell out of me for the first year of playing 3rd edition until I got the system in my haed and dumped the old 2e knowledge from my brain!!! However keeping your terminology clear makes everything easier (kinda like math). Now Gnomeslayer if you want a really hard encounter you need to throw a couple monsters whose EL is at least 3+ higher than the party. One big tough monster ususally won't cut the mustard. Give a moderately tough monster/NPC a few weaker allies that compliment it's power and you have a good encounter. Examples include a Wizard with a couple bodyguards or an Evil Fighter with a couple rogues or monks to act as distraction. A 1/2 green dragon troll + a few digesters.
tiercel 05-22-07, 08:54 PM	Good points -- both about CR vs EL, and about multiple monsters. Having several creatures, adding up to EL X, is almost always a harder encounter than a single creature of CR X. This is largely due to just the number of actions taken in combat -- even a very powerful, imposing foe is going to have difficulty with somewhat-less-powerful adversaries who get four actions to its every one. In general, the CR/EL system seems to work best with something like a number of foes not too different from the number of PCs. A single foe faces an uphill battle against multiple hostile actions to his one, while hordes of foes can swing the action advantage the other way, or, can be so individually weak that no one of them poses a threat to the PCs, or, can have some kind of ability that en masse spells more or less instant doom to the PCs.