Cr -> ECL formula [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cr -> ECL formula [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
carcrazy202
03-08-07, 11:32 PM Are their any rules for how to estimate a monster's ECL based on their CR. I know about the HD+LA rules, but what about a solar for instance: 22HD, LA --; CR 23. If for instance, lets say I am running an epic game and one of my players wants to be a Solar, what level should I say he is?

Thanks :)
TwiddleStootch
03-08-07, 11:35 PM Well, a LA entry of -- means that it is not considered suitable for a player character, and there are no guidelines for calculating a LA, so you would have to figure it out on your own.
But for a Solar, I would think it would be in the 30s, if not 40s.
runestar
03-08-07, 11:57 PM CR and ECL are 2 completely separate terms with their own rules for calculating. They are not related to each other whatsoever. As such, it would not be possible to find some connection between cr and ECL, since none exists in the first place.

I think the solar was given a ECL of 36 in a previous issue of dragon? (22HD, LA+14).:)
sciguy98
03-09-07, 10:02 AM The only correlation I ever found between the two is that more often than not, the Level Adjustment is less than the CR.
carcrazy202
03-09-07, 10:23 AM Is there a list somewhere, like say the epic level handbook or some third party magazine, that has some LAs for ultra high level monsters like Solars, Balors, or storm giants?

PS. incase you haven’t noticed my group is a bit on the power-gamer side. So ECLS of 30+ are ok :P
runestar
03-09-07, 09:34 PM Solars were given a ECL of 36 in a previous issue of dragon, IIRC.
Storm giants are listed as a viable cohort for the epic leadership feat, with an ECL of 28.
Not sure about balors.
carcrazy202
03-10-07, 10:01 AM Thanks Runestar
starfire311
03-12-07, 12:00 PM personally, I would like to see DnD take a more inclusive stance on Epic material in teh future, and when printing something that could possibly be used by a player I would like to see an LA even if it would put it well into epic levels.
Senevri
03-12-07, 02:03 PM Actually, multiplying the CR by 1.5 seems to give somewhat accurate results on the species one might be interested in, in the first place.
carcrazy202
03-12-07, 08:57 PM ya so i actually sat down and entered in all of the monsters with racial hit die and LA into excell and came up with a pritty good average: Warning Math ahead!

.2518 * X^1.2618=Y

where X is the ECL and Y is the CR

we can see that x=HD + LA

for those of you who have taken statistics it has an R^2 value of .8834. Not bad if i do say so my self. ;)

for those of you who have not taken statistics. it menas that i can account for about 88% of what is going on in the CR based on the ECL. but about 12% is caused by other stuff (race, subtype, abilities, exc...)

so use it to get a basic idea of where ECL's should be, but still go to savage species and doing the math is eventualy the only way to nail it down i guess. OH well!

thanks for the help everyone, and any more info on high level monsters would be great. i think ill start a thread for it.

PS. yes i really do have enugh time to figure all this out. its kind of sad really lol :P :D
Edymnion
03-12-07, 09:06 PM Generally, there is no formula for this sort of thing for one simple reason.
Mainly this is because a power given to a monster that is going to be assumed to only last for one fight might not be enough to warrent a high CR, but would be horribly abusable by a player.

A monster with an ability usable every 1d4 rounds will typically only get to use that ability once, maybe twice in a combat, making it less than powerful, but giving the same ability to a PC would be a totally differant matter.

A monster that can cast Cure Moderate Wounds every 1d4 rounds? Its possible it won't even get the chance to use it at all, meaning it might not have a CR much above anything else of comprable power without that ability. Giving a PC that ability would be a huge LA though, because its just not something appropriate for a PC.
carcrazy202
03-12-07, 09:12 PM the funny thing is that i have a player who used the shadow sun ninja prestige class from tomb of battle to turn himslef into a better healer then the cleric.

he does 3d6 positive energy at will, every other round. :eek: (touch of the shadow sun technique)
Senevri
03-12-07, 09:44 PM ...I'd say you must not have a very good cleric, then. 3d6 vs. 'Heal'... Hmm...
carcrazy202
03-12-07, 09:48 PM dude. he's level 8!!!!!!!
Reyemile
03-14-07, 10:47 AM A monster with an ability usable every 1d4 rounds will typically only get to use that ability once, maybe twice in a combat, making it less than powerful, but giving the same ability to a PC would be a totally differant matter.

A monster that can cast Cure Moderate Wounds every 1d4 rounds? Its possible it won't even get the chance to use it at all, meaning it might not have a CR much above anything else of comprable power without that ability. Giving a PC that ability would be a huge LA though, because its just not something appropriate for a PC.Just to clarify this point a little--imagine now that the monster can cast Cure Moderate twice a day. Healing in battle is a bad enough tactical decision that it likely won't even use the power against the PCs, let alone use it more than twice. Therefore, from the perspective of its difficulty in an encounter, nothing changes--its CR stays the same.

On the other hand, unlimited PC healing between encounters completely changes the game dynamic, but one or two heals a day is just gravy. Changing the ability to twice a day will drop the ECL substantially, probably by two whole levels. Since things like that can create two monsters with the same CR that have vastly different ECL, it's impossible to come up with a single straightforward formula.
olshanski_home
03-14-07, 11:14 AM the funny thing is that i have a player who used the shadow sun ninja prestige class from tomb of battle to turn himslef into a better healer then the cleric.

he does 3d6 positive energy at will, every other round. :eek: (touch of the shadow sun technique)

Funny thing is, positive energy doesn't equal healing. It does damage undead in the same way that a cure spell does, but I don't see any rule that claims positive energy equals healing.

Positive Energy Lash (Su): A ravid can make a touch attack or hit with a claw or tail slap attack to infuse a target with positive energy. The energy produces an unpleasant tingle in living creatures, and against undead foes (even incorporeal ones) it deals 2d10 points of damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
carcrazy202 03-08-07, 11:32 PM	Are their any rules for how to estimate a monster's ECL based on their CR. I know about the HD+LA rules, but what about a solar for instance: 22HD, LA --; CR 23. If for instance, lets say I am running an epic game and one of my players wants to be a Solar, what level should I say he is? Thanks :)
TwiddleStootch 03-08-07, 11:35 PM	Well, a LA entry of -- means that it is not considered suitable for a player character, and there are no guidelines for calculating a LA, so you would have to figure it out on your own. But for a Solar, I would think it would be in the 30s, if not 40s.
runestar 03-08-07, 11:57 PM	CR and ECL are 2 completely separate terms with their own rules for calculating. They are not related to each other whatsoever. As such, it would not be possible to find some connection between cr and ECL, since none exists in the first place. I think the solar was given a ECL of 36 in a previous issue of dragon? (22HD, LA+14).:)
sciguy98 03-09-07, 10:02 AM	The only correlation I ever found between the two is that more often than not, the Level Adjustment is less than the CR.
carcrazy202 03-09-07, 10:23 AM	Is there a list somewhere, like say the epic level handbook or some third party magazine, that has some LAs for ultra high level monsters like Solars, Balors, or storm giants? PS. incase you haven’t noticed my group is a bit on the power-gamer side. So ECLS of 30+ are ok :P
runestar 03-09-07, 09:34 PM	Solars were given a ECL of 36 in a previous issue of dragon, IIRC. Storm giants are listed as a viable cohort for the epic leadership feat, with an ECL of 28. Not sure about balors.
carcrazy202 03-10-07, 10:01 AM	Thanks Runestar
starfire311 03-12-07, 12:00 PM	personally, I would like to see DnD take a more inclusive stance on Epic material in teh future, and when printing something that could possibly be used by a player I would like to see an LA even if it would put it well into epic levels.
Senevri 03-12-07, 02:03 PM	Actually, multiplying the CR by 1.5 seems to give somewhat accurate results on the species one might be interested in, in the first place.
carcrazy202 03-12-07, 08:57 PM	ya so i actually sat down and entered in all of the monsters with racial hit die and LA into excell and came up with a pritty good average: Warning Math ahead! .2518 * X^1.2618=Y where X is the ECL and Y is the CR we can see that x=HD + LA for those of you who have taken statistics it has an R^2 value of .8834. Not bad if i do say so my self. ;) for those of you who have not taken statistics. it menas that i can account for about 88% of what is going on in the CR based on the ECL. but about 12% is caused by other stuff (race, subtype, abilities, exc...) so use it to get a basic idea of where ECL's should be, but still go to savage species and doing the math is eventualy the only way to nail it down i guess. OH well! thanks for the help everyone, and any more info on high level monsters would be great. i think ill start a thread for it. PS. yes i really do have enugh time to figure all this out. its kind of sad really lol :P :D
Edymnion 03-12-07, 09:06 PM	Generally, there is no formula for this sort of thing for one simple reason. Mainly this is because a power given to a monster that is going to be assumed to only last for one fight might not be enough to warrent a high CR, but would be horribly abusable by a player. A monster with an ability usable every 1d4 rounds will typically only get to use that ability once, maybe twice in a combat, making it less than powerful, but giving the same ability to a PC would be a totally differant matter. A monster that can cast Cure Moderate Wounds every 1d4 rounds? Its possible it won't even get the chance to use it at all, meaning it might not have a CR much above anything else of comprable power without that ability. Giving a PC that ability would be a huge LA though, because its just not something appropriate for a PC.
carcrazy202 03-12-07, 09:12 PM	the funny thing is that i have a player who used the shadow sun ninja prestige class from tomb of battle to turn himslef into a better healer then the cleric. he does 3d6 positive energy at will, every other round. :eek: (touch of the shadow sun technique)
Senevri 03-12-07, 09:44 PM	...I'd say you must not have a very good cleric, then. 3d6 vs. 'Heal'... Hmm...
carcrazy202 03-12-07, 09:48 PM	dude. he's level 8!!!!!!!
Reyemile 03-14-07, 10:47 AM	A monster with an ability usable every 1d4 rounds will typically only get to use that ability once, maybe twice in a combat, making it less than powerful, but giving the same ability to a PC would be a totally differant matter. A monster that can cast Cure Moderate Wounds every 1d4 rounds? Its possible it won't even get the chance to use it at all, meaning it might not have a CR much above anything else of comprable power without that ability. Giving a PC that ability would be a huge LA though, because its just not something appropriate for a PC.Just to clarify this point a little--imagine now that the monster can cast Cure Moderate twice a day. Healing in battle is a bad enough tactical decision that it likely won't even use the power against the PCs, let alone use it more than twice. Therefore, from the perspective of its difficulty in an encounter, nothing changes--its CR stays the same. On the other hand, unlimited PC healing between encounters completely changes the game dynamic, but one or two heals a day is just gravy. Changing the ability to twice a day will drop the ECL substantially, probably by two whole levels. Since things like that can create two monsters with the same CR that have vastly different ECL, it's impossible to come up with a single straightforward formula.
olshanski_home 03-14-07, 11:14 AM	the funny thing is that i have a player who used the shadow sun ninja prestige class from tomb of battle to turn himslef into a better healer then the cleric. he does 3d6 positive energy at will, every other round. :eek: (touch of the shadow sun technique) Funny thing is, positive energy doesn't equal healing. It does damage undead in the same way that a cure spell does, but I don't see any rule that claims positive energy equals healing. Positive Energy Lash (Su): A ravid can make a touch attack or hit with a claw or tail slap attack to infuse a target with positive energy. The energy produces an unpleasant tingle in living creatures, and against undead foes (even incorporeal ones) it deals 2d10 points of damage.