Crafting with starting gold [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crafting with starting gold [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
el_pollo
08-29-07, 07:45 AM I'm a little confused about how to handle crafting with starting gold. I'm starting a level 4 game, and one player is playing an artificer. They have the average amount of gold for that level. The artificer wants to put all the gold and craft reserve from previous levels into his items, which seems to be giving him 3 times as much gold as the other players. Since if he had played from level 1 he could have crafted about this much anyway, I'm OK with doing it- getting good cheap items is part of being a crafting class- but is this the right way to handle it? Is there a limit to the amount of gold/ craft reserve he can use that I have missed somewhere?
CrippleMrOnion
08-29-07, 08:05 AM I would allow him to do it, but I'd impose certain restrictions on what he could make. I'd say that no one item could be more than 10% of his starting gold (translates to 20% when he's not paying half, which is pretty standard when making characters at higher levels). I'd also make sure he had the appropriate crafting feat level by level as he's making these items rather than just assume he made them all in the few days before the campaign started. Sit down with him and find out what he wants, and compromise about what he can actually have. He absolutely should be able to start with items, but that doesn't mean he should be able to run buck wild through Magemart getting anything he wants. He's only level 4.
el_pollo
08-29-07, 08:07 AM Alright, I will do. Thanks for the quick reply, and advice. He's a reasonable player, so should be fine with that.
Eightbitmage
08-29-07, 08:27 AM I would actually allow him to do it, but not with his previous level's craft reserves, just his current.
Frugal
08-29-07, 08:33 AM Personally, I'm a firm believer that it shouldn't be starting gold but starting wealth. What I mean is that you start with x gp worth of equipment (and possibly some of that as currency) rather than x gp of gold that you can then spend in any way you see fit. It's a subtle distinction but an important one.

If you allow crafting prior to game time then it can substantially throw off the wealth by level guidelines, particularly at higher levels.
Merestil Haye
08-29-07, 10:14 AM According to the rules in the DMG, a high-level character can craft some of his starting equipment. In 3.0 it was suggested that the equipment be valued at 60% of the base price. It was also noted that the crafter had to spend xp. This usually resulted in the character having to start a level down.

Now the Artificer has a craft reserve - xp that he can spend without burning his own. It's not unreasonable to allow him to craft his own. However, make him list every single item he crafts, and the level he crafted it at. Thus if he uses more xp than he gets as a craft reserve at any level, the balance has to come off his own xp total.

Also, since a failure at the UMD check to emulate the spell prereqs means the resources spent are wasted, require that he make the check for each individual item, using the modifier he would have had at the level he was when he made it.

It is (unfortunately) a fair amount of work. But it means he may well lose some investment for no return, especially at 1st or 2nd level.
Puca
08-29-07, 11:04 AM Whether it comes from a class ability like the Artificer (I know nothing about Artificers) or regular caster with feats, crafting is something you "paid for" either by taking the class or the feats, so you should be allowed to do it.

It is easy enough calculate the costs of making the items and deduct it from starting wealth.

They should also pay the xp, and thats why I find it better to say to players, "you will start with ____ xp," rather than say, "you start at ____ level." I always give them a little additional xp, but I can control the amount they can craft this way on the assumption that no one will willingly drop a level. It also makes it feel more fair for non-crafters. They will have paid full price for their items, but theyll have more xp.

The last thing, and I dont think this will matter in this specific case, is the the required spells. If a wizard is going to have crafted a Headband of Intellect +2, then I either need to see Foxs Cunning in his spellbook, or we deduct the cost of 4 scrolls from the starting wealth. They cant have crafted anything above their caster-level either. Dont try to slip that Handy Haversack past me at level 5.

Yes, they will start out with more material wealth. But thats sort of the point of the Artificer I think. For regular casters, they will have more, but they got more by not taking other feats that would make them more powerful in other ways.
Frugal
08-29-07, 11:05 AM According to the rules in the DMG, a high-level character can craft some of his starting equipment. In 3.0 it was suggested that the equipment be valued at 60% of the base price. It was also noted that the crafter had to spend xp. This usually resulted in the character having to start a level down.

Now the Artificer has a craft reserve - xp that he can spend without burning his own. It's not unreasonable to allow him to craft his own. However, make him list every single item he crafts, and the level he crafted it at. Thus if he uses more xp than he gets as a craft reserve at any level, the balance has to come off his own xp total.

Also, since a failure at the UMD check to emulate the spell prereqs means the resources spent are wasted, require that he make the check for each individual item, using the modifier he would have had at the level he was when he made it.

It is (unfortunately) a fair amount of work. But it means he may well lose some investment for no return, especially at 1st or 2nd level.

Right, I think that too often players/DMs ignore that part of thing (or "forget" them). Too often pre-game crafting is 100% successful and doesn't come with an XP cost (or is justified with, "well you said we're all 4th level characters so I must've earned back that XP I spent"), that's where things really get unfair. If you enforce all the costs and all the rules then I think it can work.
mvincent
08-29-07, 12:29 PM I'm a little confused about how to handle crafting with starting gold.Note: the vanilla NPC's given in the DMG say they can start with anything they can craft for 75% of the normal price. This effectively covers the materials and the cost of XP (which is normally 5gp per XP). I allow PC's to use the same rule... as opposed to burning their own XP and starting the game at a lower level than the other PC's.

This likely isn't applicable to a craft reserve though.
heffroncm
08-29-07, 04:40 PM Well, remember that the Craft Reserve is a class feature of the Artificer. Telling him he can't use this to craft is punishing him for playing an Artificer in a game that doesn't start at 1.

My suggestion is to allow the party to start the game knowing each other for a while. Let everyone make use of the Artificer's crafting talents, figured out in character, just as they would if they had leveled together from 1.
Kuros81
09-02-07, 10:04 PM Once you've allowed your players to choose their starting equipment, you might as well allow them to craft their items at a discount. What should be controversial is the fact that a player can look through the book and pick precisely the right items for his character. I'm not against it, we play that way where I am from, but almost all of us recognize that it doesnt reflect that netting treasure doesn't give you the optimum equipment.

The last thing, and I dont think this will matter in this specific case, is the the required spells. If a wizard is going to have crafted a Headband of Intellect +2, then I either need to see Foxs Cunning in his spellbook, or we deduct the cost of 4 scrolls from the starting wealth. They cant have crafted anything above their caster-level either. Dont try to slip that Handy Haversack past me at level 5.

You're certainly right about the Haversack. But a wizard needn't have Fox's Cunning in his spellbook to have created the item. Crafting characters can work with other spellcasters to craft certain items.
StevenO
09-02-07, 10:47 PM I remember hearing that when starting above 1st level you should award your players so much XP instead of just assigning a level. They can then use that XP along with their starting wealth for items they could create themselves. That shouldn't mess up the expected PC wealth any more than having an item crafter will in the long run anyway.
el_pollo
09-03-07, 11:36 AM Alright, I'll assign XP instead of definitive levels. Thanks everyone.
Magrus
09-07-07, 11:11 AM Well, remember that the Craft Reserve is a class feature of the Artificer. Telling him he can't use this to craft is punishing him for playing an Artificer in a game that doesn't start at 1.

Very true. If you were to say that an Artificer couldn't use all of his reserve for his previous levels, it would be like removing a few spell slots permanently from the wizards spells per day listing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
el_pollo 08-29-07, 07:45 AM	I'm a little confused about how to handle crafting with starting gold. I'm starting a level 4 game, and one player is playing an artificer. They have the average amount of gold for that level. The artificer wants to put all the gold and craft reserve from previous levels into his items, which seems to be giving him 3 times as much gold as the other players. Since if he had played from level 1 he could have crafted about this much anyway, I'm OK with doing it- getting good cheap items is part of being a crafting class- but is this the right way to handle it? Is there a limit to the amount of gold/ craft reserve he can use that I have missed somewhere?
CrippleMrOnion 08-29-07, 08:05 AM	I would allow him to do it, but I'd impose certain restrictions on what he could make. I'd say that no one item could be more than 10% of his starting gold (translates to 20% when he's not paying half, which is pretty standard when making characters at higher levels). I'd also make sure he had the appropriate crafting feat level by level as he's making these items rather than just assume he made them all in the few days before the campaign started. Sit down with him and find out what he wants, and compromise about what he can actually have. He absolutely should be able to start with items, but that doesn't mean he should be able to run buck wild through Magemart getting anything he wants. He's only level 4.
el_pollo 08-29-07, 08:07 AM	Alright, I will do. Thanks for the quick reply, and advice. He's a reasonable player, so should be fine with that.
Eightbitmage 08-29-07, 08:27 AM	I would actually allow him to do it, but not with his previous level's craft reserves, just his current.
Frugal 08-29-07, 08:33 AM	Personally, I'm a firm believer that it shouldn't be starting gold but starting wealth. What I mean is that you start with x gp worth of equipment (and possibly some of that as currency) rather than x gp of gold that you can then spend in any way you see fit. It's a subtle distinction but an important one. If you allow crafting prior to game time then it can substantially throw off the wealth by level guidelines, particularly at higher levels.
Merestil Haye 08-29-07, 10:14 AM	According to the rules in the DMG, a high-level character can craft some of his starting equipment. In 3.0 it was suggested that the equipment be valued at 60% of the base price. It was also noted that the crafter had to spend xp. This usually resulted in the character having to start a level down. Now the Artificer has a craft reserve - xp that he can spend without burning his own. It's not unreasonable to allow him to craft his own. However, make him list every single item he crafts, and the level he crafted it at. Thus if he uses more xp than he gets as a craft reserve at any level, the balance has to come off his own xp total. Also, since a failure at the UMD check to emulate the spell prereqs means the resources spent are wasted, require that he make the check for each individual item, using the modifier he would have had at the level he was when he made it. It is (unfortunately) a fair amount of work. But it means he may well lose some investment for no return, especially at 1st or 2nd level.
Puca 08-29-07, 11:04 AM	Whether it comes from a class ability like the Artificer (I know nothing about Artificers) or regular caster with feats, crafting is something you "paid for" either by taking the class or the feats, so you should be allowed to do it. It is easy enough calculate the costs of making the items and deduct it from starting wealth. They should also pay the xp, and thats why I find it better to say to players, "you will start with ____ xp," rather than say, "you start at ____ level." I always give them a little additional xp, but I can control the amount they can craft this way on the assumption that no one will willingly drop a level. It also makes it feel more fair for non-crafters. They will have paid full price for their items, but theyll have more xp. The last thing, and I dont think this will matter in this specific case, is the the required spells. If a wizard is going to have crafted a Headband of Intellect +2, then I either need to see Foxs Cunning in his spellbook, or we deduct the cost of 4 scrolls from the starting wealth. They cant have crafted anything above their caster-level either. Dont try to slip that Handy Haversack past me at level 5. Yes, they will start out with more material wealth. But thats sort of the point of the Artificer I think. For regular casters, they will have more, but they got more by not taking other feats that would make them more powerful in other ways.
Frugal 08-29-07, 11:05 AM	According to the rules in the DMG, a high-level character can craft some of his starting equipment. In 3.0 it was suggested that the equipment be valued at 60% of the base price. It was also noted that the crafter had to spend xp. This usually resulted in the character having to start a level down. Now the Artificer has a craft reserve - xp that he can spend without burning his own. It's not unreasonable to allow him to craft his own. However, make him list every single item he crafts, and the level he crafted it at. Thus if he uses more xp than he gets as a craft reserve at any level, the balance has to come off his own xp total. Also, since a failure at the UMD check to emulate the spell prereqs means the resources spent are wasted, require that he make the check for each individual item, using the modifier he would have had at the level he was when he made it. It is (unfortunately) a fair amount of work. But it means he may well lose some investment for no return, especially at 1st or 2nd level. Right, I think that too often players/DMs ignore that part of thing (or "forget" them). Too often pre-game crafting is 100% successful and doesn't come with an XP cost (or is justified with, "well you said we're all 4th level characters so I must've earned back that XP I spent"), that's where things really get unfair. If you enforce all the costs and all the rules then I think it can work.
mvincent 08-29-07, 12:29 PM	I'm a little confused about how to handle crafting with starting gold.Note: the vanilla NPC's given in the DMG say they can start with anything they can craft for 75% of the normal price. This effectively covers the materials and the cost of XP (which is normally 5gp per XP). I allow PC's to use the same rule... as opposed to burning their own XP and starting the game at a lower level than the other PC's. This likely isn't applicable to a craft reserve though.
heffroncm 08-29-07, 04:40 PM	Well, remember that the Craft Reserve is a class feature of the Artificer. Telling him he can't use this to craft is punishing him for playing an Artificer in a game that doesn't start at 1. My suggestion is to allow the party to start the game knowing each other for a while. Let everyone make use of the Artificer's crafting talents, figured out in character, just as they would if they had leveled together from 1.
Kuros81 09-02-07, 10:04 PM	Once you've allowed your players to choose their starting equipment, you might as well allow them to craft their items at a discount. What should be controversial is the fact that a player can look through the book and pick precisely the right items for his character. I'm not against it, we play that way where I am from, but almost all of us recognize that it doesnt reflect that netting treasure doesn't give you the optimum equipment. The last thing, and I dont think this will matter in this specific case, is the the required spells. If a wizard is going to have crafted a Headband of Intellect +2, then I either need to see Foxs Cunning in his spellbook, or we deduct the cost of 4 scrolls from the starting wealth. They cant have crafted anything above their caster-level either. Dont try to slip that Handy Haversack past me at level 5. You're certainly right about the Haversack. But a wizard needn't have Fox's Cunning in his spellbook to have created the item. Crafting characters can work with other spellcasters to craft certain items.
StevenO 09-02-07, 10:47 PM	I remember hearing that when starting above 1st level you should award your players so much XP instead of just assigning a level. They can then use that XP along with their starting wealth for items they could create themselves. That shouldn't mess up the expected PC wealth any more than having an item crafter will in the long run anyway.
el_pollo 09-03-07, 11:36 AM	Alright, I'll assign XP instead of definitive levels. Thanks everyone.
Magrus 09-07-07, 11:11 AM	Well, remember that the Craft Reserve is a class feature of the Artificer. Telling him he can't use this to craft is punishing him for playing an Artificer in a game that doesn't start at 1. Very true. If you were to say that an Artificer couldn't use all of his reserve for his previous levels, it would be like removing a few spell slots permanently from the wizards spells per day listing.