Creating a treasure...with double standard treasure creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creating a treasure...with double standard treasure creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Im_hiding
05-18-07, 09:17 AM My party is getting up there in levels, to the point I have decided in one encounter to throw 3 Mindflayers at them.

Now, if I am correct, this is roughly a EL 11, yes? (technically, I figure it to be 11.2)

The problem, Mindflayers have double standard treasure. So, since they are all of the same type of creature, can I roll treasure from the level 11 row of table 3-5, pg 52 DMG and roll twice?

OR, should I roll twice on the EL 8 row three times? I am guessing the former, but wanted to check to be sure.
Sarella Starshine
05-18-07, 10:14 AM Its the later acctually. You roll treasure for each creature instead of the EL. So, you will be rolling on the CR 8 list 6 times (two times for each mind flayer).
Kouk
05-18-07, 11:26 AM Yeah, the values are derived individually -- unless you want to treat it as a single 11, which makes sense if they are all teammates.
Kragg Bonemeal
05-18-07, 11:41 AM Just make sure that those Mind Flayers aren't walking around with 10,000gp on their person. Much of their wealth will be back at the "lair". So unless this battle occurs near their base of operations, the PCs will only get about 1/3 to 1/2 of the treasure wealth as usable items taken from the slain Mindflayers.
MarkB
05-18-07, 01:18 PM And if you have access to it, use the tables from the Magic Item Compendium - you'll get moe consistent results, and avoid any heaps of tens of thousands of copper pieces.
Raveni
05-18-07, 09:43 PM Oh, but trying to figure out what to do with 6d12x10,000cp is an adventure of its own!
:)

To the OP, treasure by individual monster or by the group EL are both listed methods for random treasure in the DMG, p53.
runestar
05-18-07, 11:21 PM If those mindflayers are travelling somewhere, they might have carried some form of currency with them for transaction purposes.

Or just give each of them 6,800gp of magic gear and gold/gems. A mindflayer could benefit from an amulet of con or an enchanted mithral chainshirt.:)
Deep Blue 9000
05-18-07, 11:37 PM Or just give each of them 6,800gp of magic gear and gold/gems. A mindflayer could benefit from an amulet of con or an enchanted mithral chainshirt.:)

I'm not sure that's such a good idea. As I understand it, Monster CRs are assigned assuming the Monster does not use any of its "treasure" in combat, except what is already contained in its statistics block.

If the Monster used his treasure, he would actually be a higher CR opponent.
Raveni
05-18-07, 11:46 PM On the contrary, this is what is suggested in the DMG section on treasure, p.51.

The leader has the masterwork greatsword from the group’s hoard and uses it in the battle.

Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry and the rules under Building a Treasure, below. This may generate more items that the monster can use, and that’s fine
runestar
05-19-07, 12:06 AM I actually think that you are expected to use some of its treasure to obtain magic gear and outfit the monster appropriately (or whatever passes for appropriate in your campaign).

Though I suppose there should be limitations (such as giving a pit fiend a monk's belt...:P )
Deep Blue 9000
05-19-07, 12:23 AM On the contrary, this is what is suggested in the DMG section on treasure, p.51.

Well, I think letting a monster use any of its gear that it happens to be able to and giving the monster equipment equal to the value of the treasure are two completely different things. Notice that NPCs have "equpment" while monsters have "treasure".

A mindflayer with 6800 gp worth of equipment is significantly more powerful than a vanilla mindflayer. He can grab a mithral chain shirt, mithral large steel shield, a cloak of resistance, and some healing potions. I could see such a well equipped mind flayer defeating 4 8th level PCs. God help them if its 3 such mindflayers.

I actually think that you are expected to use some of its treasure to obtain magic gear and outfit the monster appropriately (or whatever passes for appropriate in your campaign).

Hrm. I can't think of any way to prove what the Designers think the "intended" use of monster's treasure is. Is there any rule you could cite for your interpretation?
runestar
05-19-07, 01:21 AM Hrm. I can't think of any way to prove what the Designers think the "intended" use of monster's treasure is. Is there any rule you could cite for your interpretation?
None I can provide, unfortunately, though there seemed to be an interesting trend in fiendish codex. For example, many of the new demons stated inside have spent quite a decent proportion of their wealth on magic gear, rather than keeping them all as gems or gold.

Plus, I can't imagine why they would just keep so much money with them and not spend any of them. If a mindflayer has a mithril chainshirt, it would be smart enough to recognize the value of wearing it for protection, rather than keep it at home, unless there was some compelling reason for it not to do so.

Also, can I ask anyone with access to MM4 to provide a summary overview of each monster's treasure, and how it was allocated?:)

I would say to just use your good sense here. A chainshirt or a shield or a few potions might be okay for a mindflayer, but maybe not all at one go...:P

Plus, it is not necessarily a bad thing if you give it something you know one of your PCs will surely want...
Sarella Starshine
05-19-07, 08:23 AM Well, I think letting a monster use any of its gear that it happens to be able to and giving the monster equipment equal to the value of the treasure are two completely different things. Notice that NPCs have "equpment" while monsters have "treasure".

A mindflayer with 6800 gp worth of equipment is significantly more powerful than a vanilla mindflayer. He can grab a mithral chain shirt, mithral large steel shield, a cloak of resistance, and some healing potions. I could see such a well equipped mind flayer defeating 4 8th level PCs. God help them if its 3 such mindflayers.

"equipment" = "treasure" if you stop and think about it. Monsters that are 'smart' (ie. with an Int rating above 5 or 6), will realize that they are more efficent at surviving if they wear thier "treasure" therefore making it "equipment". If you don't see anything wrong with bugbears, goblins and kobolds wearing thier "treasure", why couldn't any other intelligent monster? (The MM *usually* has a 'none' listing for those monsters that lack the intelligence to realize the value of equipment.) Equipment becomes treasure after you kill someone and loot thier bodies. That does not prevent you from having "treasure" treasure (coins, gems, goods, etc.), but it is something to keep in mind.

Mindflayers I would most definately rank as being intelligent enough to realize its a damn good idea to wear stuff that makes them survive combat better.
Raveni
05-19-07, 09:55 AM Well, a monster with class levels explicitly gets usable gear (DMG p.51 and 127). For an especially intelligent monster or head of a big group, one of your options is to choose usable items instead of rolling randomly, as long as you make sure that less than half of them are expendables like scrolls and potions (p.54). See, rules cited.

Look at it this way: As a PC, you're going to sell or trade items you can't use for usable items? A monster that has the opportunity to do the same probably will as well. Some, maybe even most monsters may not do that; they may be interested in building a horde of rare items, they may not have the opportunity for trade, or they may not be smart enough to realize what they have.

Wouldn't your players wonder why a mind flayer has a cubic butt-load of copper pieces, a wooden harp, and a suit of banded mail +1?

Is it really overpowering to give it usable treasure instead of junk? The Mind Flayer you've equipped has a +1 to saves, and a total AC of 21. Not something that any wizard or fighter is going to have problems with at that level.

If you're going to throw a EL 11 encounter against an 8th level party... Well, "one PC might very well die" is the descripton of a very difficult encounter (p.50). Giving the monster usuable treasure doesn't make the encounter lethal, it's already lethal. If you still think that your players can handle it, maybe use custom treasure just for 1 of the 3, and make that one the leader. This encounter makes more sense if the party is 11th level.
Morwen
05-19-07, 10:23 AM Here's a rules citation (from the front of the Monster Manual, and from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm), where it explains how to read monster entries):

Treasure

This line reflects how much wealth the creature owns. In most cases, a creature keeps valuables in its home or lair and has no treasure with it when it travels. Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home.
runestar
05-19-07, 10:23 AM Well, one problem with giving monsters usable treasure is that it tends to reduce the overall amount of treasure they get.

Bearing in mind that eq is typically sold at 1/2 market price, and assuming that the eq they loot from the monster is of little use to them (or at least inferior to the gear they are currently using), this means that they may actually be getting less treasure what the monster's wealth guidelines may suggest.

For example, a mindflayer may have 6800gp worth of magic gear, but that translates to only 3400gp worth of coins after the PCs sell them in the market. Be sure to take into account this disparity and make up for any difference accordingly.:)

And I noticed the mindflayer only has an AC of 15, which is abysmally low for its cr. I would probably argue that it needs the extra AC if it is to survive (ie: not become a power attack magnet for the fighter). Give it +1 mithral chainshirt and +1 mithral steel shield for a respectable AC of 23. Maybe a potion or 2 (cat's grace or endurance), and the rest in gems (makes more sense than lugging around 1000+gp in coins).:P
Deep Blue 9000
05-20-07, 07:09 AM I think there are 2 main issues here:

1. Monsters using treasure they have.
I think we can all agree to this. If a humanoid monster has some armor, plausibility demands he wear it.

2. Monsters having treasure they can use.
This I think is an issue. A mind flayer with 6000gp worth of equipment is objectively more powerful than a mind flayer without. Now Mr. INT 18 smarty-pants would probably be thoughtful enough to trade his precious collection of 5000 pounds of copper for something useful. And such a smart monster would probably also set up an ambush for would-be attackers instead of hanging out in an unmarked dungeon room all day.

But these are factors that make a CR 8 no longer a CR 8. Unless, of course, the authors gave mind flayers (and every other single monster) their CR knowing that the DM would outfit it with additional equipment. Or they intended for mind flayers to always fight their opponents using terrain and situations favorable to the mind flayers (I don't think they did).

Which brings us back to my original point, "What did the designers intend?"

Well, a monster with class levels explicitly gets usable gear (DMG p.51 and 127). For an especially intelligent monster or head of a big group, one of your options is to choose usable items instead of rolling randomly, as long as you make sure that less than half of them are expendables like scrolls and potions (p.54). See, rules cited.

I dunno. That sounds more like a method to make a "boss monster" more powerful without having to advance it or add a template. Although it mentioning intelligence does seem out of place in this interpretation.

Switching gears, piece of evidence that I feel supports my interpretation of author intent comes from the Monster Manual. There are creatures in it with equipment already included in their statistics block, derro in armor, lizardfolk with shields, etc. If all creatures are expected to have equipment, why do only some creatures have it in their statistic blocks.

That's another problem I have with giving monsters equipment. Lets say I'm the author and I want the mind flayer to have AC 16. I can either assign that bonus to a naked mind flayer and not expect the DM to give him anything extra. Or I can give him AC 12 and expect the DM to add a chain shirt. But if that's the case, why don't I just put the chain shirt on the mind flayer myself! It makes no sense not to include it in the creature's statistics block.
runestar
05-20-07, 08:47 AM It is ironic that I would actually be speaking up in favour of MM4 (considering how I was condemning its new format some time back), but 1 thing I felt they did correctly was to spell out how a typical creature spent its treasure. As such, we have a better idea of how it was expected to equip itself. No confusion over whether it was meant to have all its wealth collecting dirt back in its lair, or used to equip itself accordingly.

For example, in fiendish codex 1, the goristo was stated as not using any of the gear it has accumulated (though some of them, such as the animated shield, would have helped some). Conversely, the molydeus has 100,000 gp worth of extra magic gear (bracers of armour, ring of evasion, ring of prot) in addition to its magic axe - which really does make a difference in raising its AC significantly.

Which brings us back to my original point, "What did the designers intend?"
All I can say at this juncture is - you guess is as good as mine...:P
Raveni
05-20-07, 10:46 AM That's another problem I have with giving monsters equipment. Lets say I'm the author and I want the mind flayer to have AC 16. I can either assign that bonus to a naked mind flayer and not expect the DM to give him anything extra. Or I can give him AC 12 and expect the DM to add a chain shirt. But if that's the case, why don't I just put the chain shirt on the mind flayer myself! It makes no sense not to include it in the creature's statistics block.

The author didn't want every mind flayer in the world to be walking around with mithral chain shirts, mithral bucklers and treasure. You, as DM, can choose to equip it with that, or a ring of invisibility, or whatever else you want to.

I think that a single mind flayer, well equipped, is challenging for an 8th level party. They will expend spells, HP, and maybe a few items to defeat it. That seems to meet the defenition of an equal EL encounter:

If an encounter doesn�t cost the PCs some significant portion of their resources, it�s not challenging.

I dunno. That sounds more like a method to make a "boss monster" more powerful without having to advance it or add a template. Although it mentioning intelligence does seem out of place in this interpretation.

Well, I don't really know what to say to that. It is listed in the DMG as an option for creating the treasure for an encounter. The only caution mentioned is making sure that the treasure is not all consumable so that the party gets real treasure instead of blank scrolls and empty bottles. It definately does make the monster more powerful without increasing the CR. I believe that to be a good thing, while you believe it to be a bad thing. There are no rules in any book that I can cite that will change that.

:surrender
Im_hiding
05-21-07, 08:58 AM If you're going to throw a EL 11 encounter against an 8th level party... Well, "one PC might very well die" is the descripton of a very difficult encounter (p.50). Giving the monster usuable treasure doesn't make the encounter lethal, it's already lethal. If you still think that your players can handle it, maybe use custom treasure just for 1 of the 3, and make that one the leader. This encounter makes more sense if the party is 11th level.

I'm not sure where that came from, the party is 10th level...with a 7th level cohort
Kragg Bonemeal
05-21-07, 09:16 AM If they AREN'T supposed to use wealth for some plausible items... what about when you use humanoids??? Are you saying that the Orc Barbarian Lvl 8 is really a CR9 encounter without it wearing at least a chain shirt? Maybe a damage bomb like that is fine with just an axe.

Lets look at an evil human wizard Lvl 12. Big caster man isn't so tough if he isn't wearing Br Armor +2, Ring Prot +2, Cloak Resist +2, Brooch Shielding (23hp left), and Wand Hold Person (DC 15, 6 charges). And this one is supposed to be played as "prepared and aware". If not, one human fighter will mop the floor with him if they start off only 10' apart.

I know that there have been articles about Dragons being their listed CR ONLY if the party is aware and prepared for them. If a Dragon gets the drop on an unsuspecting, unprepared party, even a CR 10 dragon can kill an entire EL 12-14 party without problem.

**EDIT** After Level 7, the party has to always be on its toes because now you are in the realm of TPK in every encounter if they aren't careful. A couple good mind blasts to drop the tanks and the rest are easy pickings. Couple summoned Fiendish Dire Bears behind the casters, and the flayers are having chilled monkey-boy brains for desert.
Morwen
05-21-07, 12:21 PM NPCs and intelligent monsters in published adventures certainly use magical items (often with a gold amount equal to the expected treasure), without any increase in their CR.

Be aware, though, that NPCs get more wealth than monsters for the same CR (and PCs get more than NPCs, again).
runestar
05-21-07, 01:02 PM NPCs definitely need more treasure to make up for their comparatively sucky stats. Monsters, probably less so, since their natural stats are comparable to the eq NPCs typically get. For example, monsters tend to get superior physical stats, NA and resistances to compensate for their having less or even no treasure.

Lets look at an evil human wizard Lvl 12. Big caster man isn't so tough if he isn't wearing Br Armor +2, Ring Prot +2, Cloak Resist +2, Brooch Shielding (23hp left), and Wand Hold Person (DC 15, 6 charges).
Well, extended mage armor lasts for 24 hours at this stage, and its benefit is superior (and cheaper) than bracers of armour. I guess ring of prot could be replicated using the appropriate protection from alignment spell, and brooch of shielding perhaps by the shield spell. NPCs still don't really get enough gear to outfit themselves properly, so I suppose you may need to get creative from time to time, allowing you to free up more resources to spend on other stuff. Bear in mind to balance this with rewarding the PCs appropriately though.:D
Raveni
05-21-07, 01:44 PM I'm not sure where that came from, the party is 10th level...with a 7th level cohort

I was responding to Deep Blue...

I could see such a well equipped mind flayer defeating 4 8th level PCs. God help them if its 3 such mindflayers.

I think that it's fine and balanced for your party.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Im_hiding 05-18-07, 09:17 AM	My party is getting up there in levels, to the point I have decided in one encounter to throw 3 Mindflayers at them. Now, if I am correct, this is roughly a EL 11, yes? (technically, I figure it to be 11.2) The problem, Mindflayers have double standard treasure. So, since they are all of the same type of creature, can I roll treasure from the level 11 row of table 3-5, pg 52 DMG and roll twice? OR, should I roll twice on the EL 8 row three times? I am guessing the former, but wanted to check to be sure.
Sarella Starshine 05-18-07, 10:14 AM	Its the later acctually. You roll treasure for each creature instead of the EL. So, you will be rolling on the CR 8 list 6 times (two times for each mind flayer).
Kouk 05-18-07, 11:26 AM	Yeah, the values are derived individually -- unless you want to treat it as a single 11, which makes sense if they are all teammates.
Kragg Bonemeal 05-18-07, 11:41 AM	Just make sure that those Mind Flayers aren't walking around with 10,000gp on their person. Much of their wealth will be back at the "lair". So unless this battle occurs near their base of operations, the PCs will only get about 1/3 to 1/2 of the treasure wealth as usable items taken from the slain Mindflayers.
MarkB 05-18-07, 01:18 PM	And if you have access to it, use the tables from the Magic Item Compendium - you'll get moe consistent results, and avoid any heaps of tens of thousands of copper pieces.
Raveni 05-18-07, 09:43 PM	Oh, but trying to figure out what to do with 6d12x10,000cp is an adventure of its own! :) To the OP, treasure by individual monster or by the group EL are both listed methods for random treasure in the DMG, p53.
runestar 05-18-07, 11:21 PM	If those mindflayers are travelling somewhere, they might have carried some form of currency with them for transaction purposes. Or just give each of them 6,800gp of magic gear and gold/gems. A mindflayer could benefit from an amulet of con or an enchanted mithral chainshirt.:)
Deep Blue 9000 05-18-07, 11:37 PM	Or just give each of them 6,800gp of magic gear and gold/gems. A mindflayer could benefit from an amulet of con or an enchanted mithral chainshirt.:) I'm not sure that's such a good idea. As I understand it, Monster CRs are assigned assuming the Monster does not use any of its "treasure" in combat, except what is already contained in its statistics block. If the Monster used his treasure, he would actually be a higher CR opponent.
Raveni 05-18-07, 11:46 PM	On the contrary, this is what is suggested in the DMG section on treasure, p.51. The leader has the masterwork greatsword from the group’s hoard and uses it in the battle. Then generate their treasure according to their monster entry and the rules under Building a Treasure, below. This may generate more items that the monster can use, and that’s fine
runestar 05-19-07, 12:06 AM	I actually think that you are expected to use some of its treasure to obtain magic gear and outfit the monster appropriately (or whatever passes for appropriate in your campaign). Though I suppose there should be limitations (such as giving a pit fiend a monk's belt...:P )
Deep Blue 9000 05-19-07, 12:23 AM	On the contrary, this is what is suggested in the DMG section on treasure, p.51. Well, I think letting a monster use any of its gear that it happens to be able to and giving the monster equipment equal to the value of the treasure are two completely different things. Notice that NPCs have "equpment" while monsters have "treasure". A mindflayer with 6800 gp worth of equipment is significantly more powerful than a vanilla mindflayer. He can grab a mithral chain shirt, mithral large steel shield, a cloak of resistance, and some healing potions. I could see such a well equipped mind flayer defeating 4 8th level PCs. God help them if its 3 such mindflayers. I actually think that you are expected to use some of its treasure to obtain magic gear and outfit the monster appropriately (or whatever passes for appropriate in your campaign). Hrm. I can't think of any way to prove what the Designers think the "intended" use of monster's treasure is. Is there any rule you could cite for your interpretation?
runestar 05-19-07, 01:21 AM	Hrm. I can't think of any way to prove what the Designers think the "intended" use of monster's treasure is. Is there any rule you could cite for your interpretation? None I can provide, unfortunately, though there seemed to be an interesting trend in fiendish codex. For example, many of the new demons stated inside have spent quite a decent proportion of their wealth on magic gear, rather than keeping them all as gems or gold. Plus, I can't imagine why they would just keep so much money with them and not spend any of them. If a mindflayer has a mithril chainshirt, it would be smart enough to recognize the value of wearing it for protection, rather than keep it at home, unless there was some compelling reason for it not to do so. Also, can I ask anyone with access to MM4 to provide a summary overview of each monster's treasure, and how it was allocated?:) I would say to just use your good sense here. A chainshirt or a shield or a few potions might be okay for a mindflayer, but maybe not all at one go...:P Plus, it is not necessarily a bad thing if you give it something you know one of your PCs will surely want...
Sarella Starshine 05-19-07, 08:23 AM	Well, I think letting a monster use any of its gear that it happens to be able to and giving the monster equipment equal to the value of the treasure are two completely different things. Notice that NPCs have "equpment" while monsters have "treasure". A mindflayer with 6800 gp worth of equipment is significantly more powerful than a vanilla mindflayer. He can grab a mithral chain shirt, mithral large steel shield, a cloak of resistance, and some healing potions. I could see such a well equipped mind flayer defeating 4 8th level PCs. God help them if its 3 such mindflayers. "equipment" = "treasure" if you stop and think about it. Monsters that are 'smart' (ie. with an Int rating above 5 or 6), will realize that they are more efficent at surviving if they wear thier "treasure" therefore making it "equipment". If you don't see anything wrong with bugbears, goblins and kobolds wearing thier "treasure", why couldn't any other intelligent monster? (The MM usually has a 'none' listing for those monsters that lack the intelligence to realize the value of equipment.) Equipment becomes treasure after you kill someone and loot thier bodies. That does not prevent you from having "treasure" treasure (coins, gems, goods, etc.), but it is something to keep in mind. Mindflayers I would most definately rank as being intelligent enough to realize its a damn good idea to wear stuff that makes them survive combat better.
Raveni 05-19-07, 09:55 AM	Well, a monster with class levels explicitly gets usable gear (DMG p.51 and 127). For an especially intelligent monster or head of a big group, one of your options is to choose usable items instead of rolling randomly, as long as you make sure that less than half of them are expendables like scrolls and potions (p.54). See, rules cited. Look at it this way: As a PC, you're going to sell or trade items you can't use for usable items? A monster that has the opportunity to do the same probably will as well. Some, maybe even most monsters may not do that; they may be interested in building a horde of rare items, they may not have the opportunity for trade, or they may not be smart enough to realize what they have. Wouldn't your players wonder why a mind flayer has a cubic butt-load of copper pieces, a wooden harp, and a suit of banded mail +1? Is it really overpowering to give it usable treasure instead of junk? The Mind Flayer you've equipped has a +1 to saves, and a total AC of 21. Not something that any wizard or fighter is going to have problems with at that level. If you're going to throw a EL 11 encounter against an 8th level party... Well, "one PC might very well die" is the descripton of a very difficult encounter (p.50). Giving the monster usuable treasure doesn't make the encounter lethal, it's already lethal. If you still think that your players can handle it, maybe use custom treasure just for 1 of the 3, and make that one the leader. This encounter makes more sense if the party is 11th level.
Morwen 05-19-07, 10:23 AM	Here's a rules citation (from the front of the Monster Manual, and from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm), where it explains how to read monster entries): Treasure This line reflects how much wealth the creature owns. In most cases, a creature keeps valuables in its home or lair and has no treasure with it when it travels. Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home.
runestar 05-19-07, 10:23 AM	Well, one problem with giving monsters usable treasure is that it tends to reduce the overall amount of treasure they get. Bearing in mind that eq is typically sold at 1/2 market price, and assuming that the eq they loot from the monster is of little use to them (or at least inferior to the gear they are currently using), this means that they may actually be getting less treasure what the monster's wealth guidelines may suggest. For example, a mindflayer may have 6800gp worth of magic gear, but that translates to only 3400gp worth of coins after the PCs sell them in the market. Be sure to take into account this disparity and make up for any difference accordingly.:) And I noticed the mindflayer only has an AC of 15, which is abysmally low for its cr. I would probably argue that it needs the extra AC if it is to survive (ie: not become a power attack magnet for the fighter). Give it +1 mithral chainshirt and +1 mithral steel shield for a respectable AC of 23. Maybe a potion or 2 (cat's grace or endurance), and the rest in gems (makes more sense than lugging around 1000+gp in coins).:P
Deep Blue 9000 05-20-07, 07:09 AM	I think there are 2 main issues here: 1. Monsters using treasure they have. I think we can all agree to this. If a humanoid monster has some armor, plausibility demands he wear it. 2. Monsters having treasure they can use. This I think is an issue. A mind flayer with 6000gp worth of equipment is objectively more powerful than a mind flayer without. Now Mr. INT 18 smarty-pants would probably be thoughtful enough to trade his precious collection of 5000 pounds of copper for something useful. And such a smart monster would probably also set up an ambush for would-be attackers instead of hanging out in an unmarked dungeon room all day. But these are factors that make a CR 8 no longer a CR 8. Unless, of course, the authors gave mind flayers (and every other single monster) their CR knowing that the DM would outfit it with additional equipment. Or they intended for mind flayers to always fight their opponents using terrain and situations favorable to the mind flayers (I don't think they did). Which brings us back to my original point, "What did the designers intend?" Well, a monster with class levels explicitly gets usable gear (DMG p.51 and 127). For an especially intelligent monster or head of a big group, one of your options is to choose usable items instead of rolling randomly, as long as you make sure that less than half of them are expendables like scrolls and potions (p.54). See, rules cited. I dunno. That sounds more like a method to make a "boss monster" more powerful without having to advance it or add a template. Although it mentioning intelligence does seem out of place in this interpretation. Switching gears, piece of evidence that I feel supports my interpretation of author intent comes from the Monster Manual. There are creatures in it with equipment already included in their statistics block, derro in armor, lizardfolk with shields, etc. If all creatures are expected to have equipment, why do only some creatures have it in their statistic blocks. That's another problem I have with giving monsters equipment. Lets say I'm the author and I want the mind flayer to have AC 16. I can either assign that bonus to a naked mind flayer and not expect the DM to give him anything extra. Or I can give him AC 12 and expect the DM to add a chain shirt. But if that's the case, why don't I just put the chain shirt on the mind flayer myself! It makes no sense not to include it in the creature's statistics block.
runestar 05-20-07, 08:47 AM	It is ironic that I would actually be speaking up in favour of MM4 (considering how I was condemning its new format some time back), but 1 thing I felt they did correctly was to spell out how a typical creature spent its treasure. As such, we have a better idea of how it was expected to equip itself. No confusion over whether it was meant to have all its wealth collecting dirt back in its lair, or used to equip itself accordingly. For example, in fiendish codex 1, the goristo was stated as not using any of the gear it has accumulated (though some of them, such as the animated shield, would have helped some). Conversely, the molydeus has 100,000 gp worth of extra magic gear (bracers of armour, ring of evasion, ring of prot) in addition to its magic axe - which really does make a difference in raising its AC significantly. Which brings us back to my original point, "What did the designers intend?" All I can say at this juncture is - you guess is as good as mine...:P
Raveni 05-20-07, 10:46 AM	That's another problem I have with giving monsters equipment. Lets say I'm the author and I want the mind flayer to have AC 16. I can either assign that bonus to a naked mind flayer and not expect the DM to give him anything extra. Or I can give him AC 12 and expect the DM to add a chain shirt. But if that's the case, why don't I just put the chain shirt on the mind flayer myself! It makes no sense not to include it in the creature's statistics block. The author didn't want every mind flayer in the world to be walking around with mithral chain shirts, mithral bucklers and treasure. You, as DM, can choose to equip it with that, or a ring of invisibility, or whatever else you want to. I think that a single mind flayer, well equipped, is challenging for an 8th level party. They will expend spells, HP, and maybe a few items to defeat it. That seems to meet the defenition of an equal EL encounter: If an encounter doesn�t cost the PCs some significant portion of their resources, it�s not challenging. I dunno. That sounds more like a method to make a "boss monster" more powerful without having to advance it or add a template. Although it mentioning intelligence does seem out of place in this interpretation. Well, I don't really know what to say to that. It is listed in the DMG as an option for creating the treasure for an encounter. The only caution mentioned is making sure that the treasure is not all consumable so that the party gets real treasure instead of blank scrolls and empty bottles. It definately does make the monster more powerful without increasing the CR. I believe that to be a good thing, while you believe it to be a bad thing. There are no rules in any book that I can cite that will change that. :surrender
Im_hiding 05-21-07, 08:58 AM	If you're going to throw a EL 11 encounter against an 8th level party... Well, "one PC might very well die" is the descripton of a very difficult encounter (p.50). Giving the monster usuable treasure doesn't make the encounter lethal, it's already lethal. If you still think that your players can handle it, maybe use custom treasure just for 1 of the 3, and make that one the leader. This encounter makes more sense if the party is 11th level. I'm not sure where that came from, the party is 10th level...with a 7th level cohort
Kragg Bonemeal 05-21-07, 09:16 AM	If they AREN'T supposed to use wealth for some plausible items... what about when you use humanoids??? Are you saying that the Orc Barbarian Lvl 8 is really a CR9 encounter without it wearing at least a chain shirt? Maybe a damage bomb like that is fine with just an axe. Lets look at an evil human wizard Lvl 12. Big caster man isn't so tough if he isn't wearing Br Armor +2, Ring Prot +2, Cloak Resist +2, Brooch Shielding (23hp left), and Wand Hold Person (DC 15, 6 charges). And this one is supposed to be played as "prepared and aware". If not, one human fighter will mop the floor with him if they start off only 10' apart. I know that there have been articles about Dragons being their listed CR ONLY if the party is aware and prepared for them. If a Dragon gets the drop on an unsuspecting, unprepared party, even a CR 10 dragon can kill an entire EL 12-14 party without problem. EDIT After Level 7, the party has to always be on its toes because now you are in the realm of TPK in every encounter if they aren't careful. A couple good mind blasts to drop the tanks and the rest are easy pickings. Couple summoned Fiendish Dire Bears behind the casters, and the flayers are having chilled monkey-boy brains for desert.
Morwen 05-21-07, 12:21 PM	NPCs and intelligent monsters in published adventures certainly use magical items (often with a gold amount equal to the expected treasure), without any increase in their CR. Be aware, though, that NPCs get more wealth than monsters for the same CR (and PCs get more than NPCs, again).
runestar 05-21-07, 01:02 PM	NPCs definitely need more treasure to make up for their comparatively sucky stats. Monsters, probably less so, since their natural stats are comparable to the eq NPCs typically get. For example, monsters tend to get superior physical stats, NA and resistances to compensate for their having less or even no treasure. Lets look at an evil human wizard Lvl 12. Big caster man isn't so tough if he isn't wearing Br Armor +2, Ring Prot +2, Cloak Resist +2, Brooch Shielding (23hp left), and Wand Hold Person (DC 15, 6 charges). Well, extended mage armor lasts for 24 hours at this stage, and its benefit is superior (and cheaper) than bracers of armour. I guess ring of prot could be replicated using the appropriate protection from alignment spell, and brooch of shielding perhaps by the shield spell. NPCs still don't really get enough gear to outfit themselves properly, so I suppose you may need to get creative from time to time, allowing you to free up more resources to spend on other stuff. Bear in mind to balance this with rewarding the PCs appropriately though.:D
Raveni 05-21-07, 01:44 PM	I'm not sure where that came from, the party is 10th level...with a 7th level cohort I was responding to Deep Blue... I could see such a well equipped mind flayer defeating 4 8th level PCs. God help them if its 3 such mindflayers. I think that it's fine and balanced for your party.