Crit on Ray of Enfeeblement? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crit on Ray of Enfeeblement? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gospodin_I
11-20-07, 06:10 AM The short description of the spell in the Wiz/Sor spell list says RoE deals Str damage, while the actual description says it's a penalty.

In the campaing which I DM one of the players pointed out that crits apply only to damage and not to penalties. Ever since I've been wondering whether he was right.

First, because the entry on crits says "Evrything that you roll attack for can crit" and then because of the above mentioned inconsistency in the rules.

I looked throught the general FAQ and PHB errata and couldn't find anything on this.

So...how is it? I would be very grateful if you can quote a source if you mention any official rules. Maybe I just couldn't find what I needed.
Bopple
11-20-07, 07:41 AM You can crit with penalty spells. Specifically, you can roll a natural 20 and hit automatically.
It's just you cannot multiply damage, because you do not deal damage.
Gospodin_I
11-20-07, 08:49 AM A natural 20 is an automatic hit.

I meant "critical" as damage though. And if it is damage (as the short description suggests) then I should be able to. If it is penalty then maybe not - but where is it written?
Bopple
11-20-07, 08:59 AM You got it wrong about what rules say.
When the rule says nothing about it, it means it does nothing.
In this case, scoring critical means your 'damage' is multiplied.
You cannot multiply penalty, because the rule does not say anything about multiplying penalty.
Critical != you can multiply any result of your offensive option.
Bopple
11-20-07, 09:02 AM A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once
This is the result of a critical hit.
Gospodin_I
11-20-07, 09:12 AM D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits):

Spells and Critical Hits

A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together.

And on Ray of Enfeeblement:

1st level Sorcerer/Wizards spells: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorce rerWizardSpells)

Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage.

Entry of the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm): he subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels
Marcus Majarra
11-20-07, 09:19 AM The spell's description takes precedence over the table entry. As such, you cannot score a critical hit with a ray of enfeeblement.
Bopple
11-20-07, 09:47 AM The description supercedes the table or summary. That's the rule of thumb.
(actually, there are a few cases in which the table seems right but the description wrong, but...)
Merestil Haye
11-20-07, 09:47 AM The spell does not deal damage.

WotC have a policy about discrepancies between text and tables. It is assumed that the text is correct unless they say otherwise.

WotC have never said otherwise.
Salla
11-20-07, 02:51 PM The spell's description takes precedence over the table entry. As such, you cannot score a critical hit with a ray of enfeeblement.

Correct (as usual, Marcus).

To be able to hit critically with a spell, it must both require an attack roll and deal damage. RoE does not deal damage, so no critting.
Tedronai
11-21-07, 04:43 PM Correct (as usual, Marcus).

To be able to hit critically with a spell, it must both require an attack roll and deal damage. RoE does not deal damage, so no critting.

Or deal negative levels or ability drain. Those also multiply on a crit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gospodin_I 11-20-07, 06:10 AM	The short description of the spell in the Wiz/Sor spell list says RoE deals Str damage, while the actual description says it's a penalty. In the campaing which I DM one of the players pointed out that crits apply only to damage and not to penalties. Ever since I've been wondering whether he was right. First, because the entry on crits says "Evrything that you roll attack for can crit" and then because of the above mentioned inconsistency in the rules. I looked throught the general FAQ and PHB errata and couldn't find anything on this. So...how is it? I would be very grateful if you can quote a source if you mention any official rules. Maybe I just couldn't find what I needed.
Bopple 11-20-07, 07:41 AM	You can crit with penalty spells. Specifically, you can roll a natural 20 and hit automatically. It's just you cannot multiply damage, because you do not deal damage.
Gospodin_I 11-20-07, 08:49 AM	A natural 20 is an automatic hit. I meant "critical" as damage though. And if it is damage (as the short description suggests) then I should be able to. If it is penalty then maybe not - but where is it written?
Bopple 11-20-07, 08:59 AM	You got it wrong about what rules say. When the rule says nothing about it, it means it does nothing. In this case, scoring critical means your 'damage' is multiplied. You cannot multiply penalty, because the rule does not say anything about multiplying penalty. Critical != you can multiply any result of your offensive option.
Bopple 11-20-07, 09:02 AM	A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once This is the result of a critical hit.
Gospodin_I 11-20-07, 09:12 AM	D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits): Spells and Critical Hits A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. And on Ray of Enfeeblement: 1st level Sorcerer/Wizards spells: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/sorcererWizardSpells.htm#firstLevelSorce rerWizardSpells) Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray deals 1d6 +1 per two levels Str damage. Entry of the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm): he subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels
Marcus Majarra 11-20-07, 09:19 AM	The spell's description takes precedence over the table entry. As such, you cannot score a critical hit with a ray of enfeeblement.
Bopple 11-20-07, 09:47 AM	The description supercedes the table or summary. That's the rule of thumb. (actually, there are a few cases in which the table seems right but the description wrong, but...)
Merestil Haye 11-20-07, 09:47 AM	The spell does not deal damage. WotC have a policy about discrepancies between text and tables. It is assumed that the text is correct unless they say otherwise. WotC have never said otherwise.
Salla 11-20-07, 02:51 PM	The spell's description takes precedence over the table entry. As such, you cannot score a critical hit with a ray of enfeeblement. Correct (as usual, Marcus). To be able to hit critically with a spell, it must both require an attack roll and deal damage. RoE does not deal damage, so no critting.
Tedronai 11-21-07, 04:43 PM	Correct (as usual, Marcus). To be able to hit critically with a spell, it must both require an attack roll and deal damage. RoE does not deal damage, so no critting. Or deal negative levels or ability drain. Those also multiply on a crit.