Crusader Progression Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crusader Progression Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pallando97
04-04-07, 11:48 PM Ok, We all know that the Crusader is the only martial class to get the Devoted Spirit discipline. In this discipline, there is an 8th Level stance known as Immortal Fortitude listed. So far so good...

However, the Crusader learns his last Stance at 14th level (at which point he/she has 4). Also, stances cannot be "traded out" for others like manuevers can be. At 14th level, the maximum level of anything a Crusader can learn is 7th Level. How, then, is the Crusader supposed to learn his 8th level Stance? The only thing I can think of is taking the Martial Stance feat, but having to take a feat for one's own class abilities hardly seems right.

Has there been an answer to this, or does the Crusader have to take a feat to get one of his/her best stances?

If I have misread any charts or anything, I apologize, lol.
tos_shai_hulud
04-05-07, 12:04 AM Another option is to choose not to take a stance at 14th level, but instead wait until you can gain an 8th level stance. That certainly is not an official rule, but I would allow anyone who was interested in the 8th level stance the opportunity to wait until it was available before choosing (or I would allow them to learn the 8th level stance, but not have the proficiency to use it until 15th level).
Mystyc
04-05-07, 01:28 AM Another option is to choose not to take a stance at 14th level, but instead wait until you can gain an 8th level stance. That certainly is not an official rule, but I would allow anyone who was interested in the 8th level stance the opportunity to wait until it was available before choosing (or I would allow them to learn the 8th level stance, but not have the proficiency to use it until 15th level).
Honestly, this is what I would do. However, to get the stance RAW, you would need the feat or to multiclass, pumping your martial adept level up with other classes before taking Crusader 14. Neither seems like the proper intent of the designers.
Roxlimn
04-05-07, 03:48 AM Yes. This has been discussed a number of times. I believe RBaker (or was it MSernett?) weighed in to attest that this was indeed by design - you would need to take a feat to get those last few goodies.

You'll notice that the Swordsage also usually has to invest in Adaptive Style to get a halfway decent recovery method.

Wizards need the Dragon Magic feat to cast Dragon Spells, or the Dragonmarked Feat to cast Dragonmarked Spells.

It doesn't seem all that unusual. After all it IS just one stance, and it isn't like the Crusader isn't already arguably the strongest class in that book.

It's not a big deal.
Aminvelos
04-05-07, 11:27 AM TOB classes are already considered to far surpass melee core classes. That's the way the stances were meant to be, that bullet all the TOB classes have to bite is pretty small.
DarkRhystar
04-05-07, 04:19 PM Another option is to choose not to take a stance at 14th level, but instead wait until you can gain an 8th level stance. That certainly is not an official rule, but I would allow anyone who was interested in the 8th level stance the opportunity to wait until it was available before choosing (or I would allow them to learn the 8th level stance, but not have the proficiency to use it until 15th level).

I wouldn't advise doing this.

It's against the design (strange as it is).
It's a door opener for "Can I save feats? Skills?"

TOB classes are already considered to far surpass melee core classes.

Arguable.
Marcus Majarra
04-08-07, 03:57 AM The Sage has recently addressed this issue. You cannot delay the acquisition of a new stance at 14th level. The options available to you are:

1) Never learning Immortal Fortitude
2) Learning Immortal Fortitude at levels 15 or 18 through the use of the Martial Stance feat. This costs you one feat, but allows you to play a 20th-level Crusader pre-epic.
3) Learning Immortal Fortitude at any level starting from 15th. This is done by selecting a level in a prestige class that advances iniator progression. If you're not willing to waste feats on this, odds are only dwarves will be able to accomplish this, by taking at least one level in the Deepstone Sentinel PrC (the other PrCs require maneuvers from disciplines the crusader doesn't have access to or require that the crusader multiclass, as is the case for the jade phoenix mage and the ruby knight vindicator). By delaying your gaining the 14th crusader level, you can make sure you gain that stance by the time your IL reaches 15.
4) Learning Immortal Fortitude at any level starting from 16th. This is done by selecting two levels from any classes or prestige classes that does not advance initiator progression. This works as above, but is more accessible.

Keep in mind that only the first two options allow you to play a single-classed crusader.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallando97 04-04-07, 11:48 PM	Ok, We all know that the Crusader is the only martial class to get the Devoted Spirit discipline. In this discipline, there is an 8th Level stance known as Immortal Fortitude listed. So far so good... However, the Crusader learns his last Stance at 14th level (at which point he/she has 4). Also, stances cannot be "traded out" for others like manuevers can be. At 14th level, the maximum level of anything a Crusader can learn is 7th Level. How, then, is the Crusader supposed to learn his 8th level Stance? The only thing I can think of is taking the Martial Stance feat, but having to take a feat for one's own class abilities hardly seems right. Has there been an answer to this, or does the Crusader have to take a feat to get one of his/her best stances? If I have misread any charts or anything, I apologize, lol.
tos_shai_hulud 04-05-07, 12:04 AM	Another option is to choose not to take a stance at 14th level, but instead wait until you can gain an 8th level stance. That certainly is not an official rule, but I would allow anyone who was interested in the 8th level stance the opportunity to wait until it was available before choosing (or I would allow them to learn the 8th level stance, but not have the proficiency to use it until 15th level).
Mystyc 04-05-07, 01:28 AM	Another option is to choose not to take a stance at 14th level, but instead wait until you can gain an 8th level stance. That certainly is not an official rule, but I would allow anyone who was interested in the 8th level stance the opportunity to wait until it was available before choosing (or I would allow them to learn the 8th level stance, but not have the proficiency to use it until 15th level). Honestly, this is what I would do. However, to get the stance RAW, you would need the feat or to multiclass, pumping your martial adept level up with other classes before taking Crusader 14. Neither seems like the proper intent of the designers.
Roxlimn 04-05-07, 03:48 AM	Yes. This has been discussed a number of times. I believe RBaker (or was it MSernett?) weighed in to attest that this was indeed by design - you would need to take a feat to get those last few goodies. You'll notice that the Swordsage also usually has to invest in Adaptive Style to get a halfway decent recovery method. Wizards need the Dragon Magic feat to cast Dragon Spells, or the Dragonmarked Feat to cast Dragonmarked Spells. It doesn't seem all that unusual. After all it IS just one stance, and it isn't like the Crusader isn't already arguably the strongest class in that book. It's not a big deal.
Aminvelos 04-05-07, 11:27 AM	TOB classes are already considered to far surpass melee core classes. That's the way the stances were meant to be, that bullet all the TOB classes have to bite is pretty small.
DarkRhystar 04-05-07, 04:19 PM	Another option is to choose not to take a stance at 14th level, but instead wait until you can gain an 8th level stance. That certainly is not an official rule, but I would allow anyone who was interested in the 8th level stance the opportunity to wait until it was available before choosing (or I would allow them to learn the 8th level stance, but not have the proficiency to use it until 15th level). I wouldn't advise doing this. It's against the design (strange as it is). It's a door opener for "Can I save feats? Skills?" TOB classes are already considered to far surpass melee core classes. Arguable.
Marcus Majarra 04-08-07, 03:57 AM	The Sage has recently addressed this issue. You cannot delay the acquisition of a new stance at 14th level. The options available to you are: 1) Never learning Immortal Fortitude 2) Learning Immortal Fortitude at levels 15 or 18 through the use of the Martial Stance feat. This costs you one feat, but allows you to play a 20th-level Crusader pre-epic. 3) Learning Immortal Fortitude at any level starting from 15th. This is done by selecting a level in a prestige class that advances iniator progression. If you're not willing to waste feats on this, odds are only dwarves will be able to accomplish this, by taking at least one level in the Deepstone Sentinel PrC (the other PrCs require maneuvers from disciplines the crusader doesn't have access to or require that the crusader multiclass, as is the case for the jade phoenix mage and the ruby knight vindicator). By delaying your gaining the 14th crusader level, you can make sure you gain that stance by the time your IL reaches 15. 4) Learning Immortal Fortitude at any level starting from 16th. This is done by selecting two levels from any classes or prestige classes that does not advance initiator progression. This works as above, but is more accessible. Keep in mind that only the first two options allow you to play a single-classed crusader.