Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TK-4367 07-08-07, 01:17 PM	I've been trying to get into the hobby for awhile now but have always run into trouble with the complexity of the rules. In my most recent atempt I wanted to make a 1st level dungeon for a few of my buddies to run through. After spending hours flipping through books trying to figure out CR to treasure ratio, monster stats, ect I have given up in frustration. I think D&D has a lot of potential to be a fun game for me but at the same time all the charts and cross refrencing drives me nuts. I would venture to say that it was easier for me to do my taxes this year then to design that first level dungeon. I have played a few other RPGs and war games in my time and never had this much trouble. I just want to know if I'm missing something or if there is a tutorial some where that could help me out.
Kouk 07-08-07, 01:20 PM	You could just use published adventures, they take almost all planning out of it.
Sildatorak 07-08-07, 02:20 PM	Just relax. Since you're designing the dungeon, I take it you are the DM. D&D mostly has all the things that are driving you nuts to set a baseline for play for the millions of people who play it. There aren't any D&D police waiting to kick down your door if you players have wealth out of line for their level or if the monsters have more or less treasure than they should. Until you get more experience, I'd say just make sure that the dungeon is fairly static. If the PC's can retreat to safety to heal and regain spells you probably won't kill any. Throw in some monsters with CR from 1/2 to 2, put in some treasure for them to find, and call it a day. If it seems like it was too easy, use harder monsters next time, if it seems too hard, use easier ones next time. As long as the group is having fun, you're doing it right.
Phrennzy 07-08-07, 04:33 PM	Free adventures: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b Some are pretty good. Take one, say - The Burning PLague - and go thru and list all the monsters, traps, and treasure. Then compare what you wrote down. An easy way of compiling monster stats is to print out the page of the SRD that the monster is on. Its a lot more simple than you think.
Pegasos989 07-08-07, 05:03 PM	go to d20srd.com and look up encounter calculator. There you can put "the party is three players of level 2, there will be 2 goblins (CR 1/3) and three kobolds (CR 1/4). Oh, party level is 1.5 and encounter level 1, so it is easy encounter. Let's add two orcs (CR 1/2) and the encounter level is 3, becoming very difficult... Oh, and treasure value should be about 575 gp"
Heros_Backpack 07-08-07, 06:46 PM	If you still want to make your own dungeon, you'll find monsters laid out according to dungeon level starting on page 79 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Take a selection from the first level table, assign them level 1 treasure and bring in the PC's.
TK-4367 07-09-07, 12:58 PM	Thanks guys. I think I was getting a little too caught up in doing it exactly right. I'll give your suggestions a try.
mvincent 07-09-07, 05:44 PM	1) Yes, unfortunately D&D is (overly)complicated 2) The best way to learn it is to attend a game run by experienced players. 3) Alternately, you could pick up the D&D Basic Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/966470000). This boxed set simplifies the concepts and spoon-feeds them at a slower pace. It also has pre-made adventures (and is an excellent deal just for the miniatures)
Ace_of_time 07-10-07, 11:24 PM	An easy way for Items is in MIC. Check it out and see if it will help with the treasure. Most of the new monster Books tells you what the monster have with them you could try that to. Don't worry about CRs to much. There good to judge about what to use but I just look at abilities they have before saying yes or no about using them.
High Octane 07-11-07, 06:50 AM	If you think its bad now you should have seen the 1st edition days.
Phrennzy 07-11-07, 01:07 PM	One thing all new DMs should remember, and so should players - First Time DM's suck. You suck. You really suck. Oh, sure, you have your high points, but you are gonna make bad calls, get caught up with keeping your BBEG alive regardless of what the PCs do, interpret rules incorrectly, overcompensate, underestimate, and generally screw the pooch. You suck. The good news is: So did everyone else. Gary Gygax's first game? He sucked. This is the guy that invented the game (along with others). And he sucked. He had DMPCs that were too cool for school, all kinds of unfair, rules bending traps and instant kills - I mean, he flat out sucked. Then he got better. Just like me. When I first started, I sucked. Wizards could cast whatever spell they wanted however many times per day. Suck. 10 person party, with only 2 being actual PCs. All the rest were NPCs. Suck. My suckitude was incredible. But (I'd like to think) I got better. Then they changed to "Advanced" D&D. And I had to learn THAC0. And honestly, everytime I had to roll a saving throw - and this is as the DM - I had to ask the players if I needed to roll high or low. I sucked. Then I got better. Then 3rd edition came out. I sucked once more. "Sure you can take 20 on tumble checks to roll past the enemy." and other suckitudes were made. But I've gotten better. Then they released 3.5 and I only half sucked. Now I think I do a pretty good job. My players come back every week (to be fair, one is my brother and one is my boyfriend) and seem to enjoy themselves. So it shall be with you. You will suck and fail and the game will have tremendously lame moments that will live with you forever. But you can wear some as a badge of honor. I had an Acherai - those big, fat birds - go up against the PCs. They killed it, and on a lark, I rolled for treasure. Two suits of masterwork plate armor and a non-magical staff. In the bird. They cut the bird open, and that's what they found. Two suits of masterwork plate armor and a non-magical staff. The players laughed for a good 10 minutes, and still bring it up from time to time. Not my finest moment. But they come back. They come back because I provide a good, fun, interesting game. So will you. But you have to suck first.
darkdrgon2136 07-11-07, 01:14 PM	One thing all new DMs should remember, and so should players - First Time DM's suck. You suck. You really suck. Oh, sure, you have your high points, but you are gonna make bad calls, get caught up with keeping your BBEG alive regardless of what the PCs do, interpret rules incorrectly, overcompensate, underestimate, and generally screw the pooch. You suck. The good news is: So did everyone else. Gary Gygax's first game? He sucked. This is the guy that invented the game (along with others). And he sucked. He had DMPCs that were too cool for school, all kinds of unfair, rules bending traps and instant kills - I mean, he flat out sucked. Then he got better. Just like me. When I first started, I sucked. Wizards could cast whatever spell they wanted however many times per day. Suck. 10 person party, with only 2 being actual PCs. All the rest were NPCs. Suck. My suckitude was incredible. But (I'd like to think) I got better. Then they changed to "Advanced" D&D. And I had to learn THAC0. And honestly, everytime I had to roll a saving throw - and this is as the DM - I had to ask the players if I needed to roll high or low. I sucked. Then I got better. Then 3rd edition came out. I sucked once more. "Sure you can take 20 on tumble checks to roll past the enemy." and other suckitudes were made. But I've gotten better. Then they released 3.5 and I only half sucked. Now I think I do a pretty good job. My players come back every week (to be fair, one is my brother and one is my boyfriend) and seem to enjoy themselves. So it shall be with you. You will suck and fail and the game will have tremendously lame moments that will live with you forever. But you can wear some as a badge of honor. I had an Acherai - those big, fat birds - go up against the PCs. They killed it, and on a lark, I rolled for treasure. Two suits of masterwork plate armor and a non-magical staff. In the bird. They cut the bird open, and that's what they found. Two suits of masterwork plate armor and a non-magical staff. The players laughed for a good 10 minutes, and still bring it up from time to time. Not my finest moment. But they come back. They come back because I provide a good, fun, interesting game. So will you. But you have to suck first. QFT. I think I sucked worse than you at my first adventure. 2 level 1 pcs against an adult white dragon= TPK
Downtym 07-11-07, 03:17 PM	In my most recent atempt I wanted to make a 1st level dungeon for a few of my buddies to run through. After spending hours flipping through books trying to figure out CR to treasure ratio, monster stats, ect I have given up in frustration. Why are you doing this? Tip: 1. Grab some graph paper and a pencil. 2. Close your eyes. 3. Draw a wandering line on the paper for 20 seconds. 3a. Open your eyes. 3b. Okay, using that line sketch out a really simple cave/dungeon. 4. Open the Monster Manual. There are going to be 2 goblins at the entrance. 3 goblins in the middle. And an orc at the end. 5. Make characters. 6. Kill the goblins and orc with the characters. 7. Look in the DMG for how much XP you should get. If you really want to award treasure, do it. 8. Do it again with a bigger cave/dungeon.
PenderGrass 07-11-07, 04:25 PM	suck. suck. suck. suck. sucked. sucked. sucked. sucked. Suck. Suck. suckitude sucked. suckitudes sucked. suck That was the suckiest post, EVER. ;) :dragon: ****
uglykitten 07-11-07, 04:37 PM	Do you have a Real Life DM friend? If so, allow him/her to co-DM with you while playing a PC in the campaign. This is what I did for one of my PCs who wanted to become a DM. We rolled up 1st level characters and mine would drop hints at being somewhat against most the PCs. Her alignment was secretly CE, and she was a dragon shape-shifted to appear elven. A black dragon. It turned into a really cool campaign. I allowed the DM to make mistakes, and then when we took breaks, I'd let her know what she could've done better. Such as recording the DC for drowning/swimming. She made a wonderful campaign, though, and did a beautiful job describing scenery. She even asked my help in creating a new monster--and interesting one at that. It only moved when you looked at it. If you don't have a DM friend, you can always tell us what you want to do, and we can give you a general idea what you need. Also, I highly suggest giving this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=471897 a read. This DM is highly skilled and gives a lot of thought into describing his DMing style. I suggest using a map from one of the prewritten adventures for now if you really want one and replacing their encounters with your own. Drawing maps is time consuming, and you just want an adventure to get your feet wet (for now). Don't announce any particular campaign setting. Just describe where your characters are NOW. If they want to move off the map you know, make something up. I always make a general map and fill in locations as I go.
Phrennzy 07-12-07, 12:29 PM	Why are you doing this? Tip: 1. Grab some graph paper and a pencil. 2. Close your eyes. 3. Draw a wandering line on the paper for 20 seconds. 3a. Open your eyes. 3b. Okay, using that line sketch out a really simple cave/dungeon. 4. Open the Monster Manual. There are going to be 2 goblins at the entrance. 3 goblins in the middle. And an orc at the end. 5. Make characters. 6. Kill the goblins and orc with the characters. 7. Look in the DMG for how much XP you should get. If you really want to award treasure, do it. 8. Do it again with a bigger cave/dungeon. I think that's just about the best idea I've heard on here in a while.
Kursk 07-12-07, 01:28 PM	If you think its bad now you should have seen the 1st edition days. Much less rules then. Faster game play.
olshanski_home 07-12-07, 01:50 PM	First edition was far faster game play. Monsters basically had hit dice, AC, damage, and hit points. You didn't worry what the abilities or skills were for monsters. Players didn't have skills or feats, only class abilities. There was no: grappling, bull rush, tripping, Damage reduction, spell resistance, energy resistance, metamagic, spell penetration, prestige classes. Just to name a few less rules and complications in 1st edition.
Ace_of_time 07-12-07, 02:29 PM	First edition was far faster game play. Monsters basically had hit dice, AC, damage, and hit points. You didn't worry what the abilities or skills were for monsters. Players didn't have skills or feats, only class abilities. There was no: grappling, bull rush, tripping, Damage reduction, spell resistance, energy resistance, metamagic, spell penetration, prestige classes. Just to name a few less rules and complications in 1st edition. THACO????
Kursk 07-12-07, 02:34 PM	THACO???? Yes? I needed a 10 to hit AC 0 so I need a 5 to hit AC 5. That took a tenth of a second to work out in my head...
PenderGrass 07-12-07, 02:37 PM	THACO???? THAC0 was a 2nd edition invention. PS - Make sure to use the number 0 not the letter O. After all it is To Hit Armor Class Zero, not To Hit Armor Class Oprah. :dragon: ****
Kursk 07-12-07, 02:38 PM	THAC0 was a 2nd edition invention. PS - Make sure to use the number 0 not the letter O. After all it is To Hit Armor Class Zero, not To Hit Armor Class Oprah. :dragon: **** That's right 1st Ed had the charts... What is Oprah's AC anyway?
PenderGrass 07-12-07, 02:43 PM	That's right 1st Ed had the charts... What is Oprah's AC anyway? It is all dependent upon whether you are aiming at chubby Oprah or skinny Oprah. And, I agree, THAC0 was a very streamlined and awesome rule. It was just amazing to see how many people couldn't do simple math in their head. :dragon: ****
Dracomortis 07-12-07, 02:46 PM	That's right 1st Ed had the charts... What is Oprah's AC anyway? She gets a deflection bonus equal to the number of schools and humpback whales she's given out. I'd say it's pretty damn high by now.
Ace_of_time 07-12-07, 02:47 PM	I always spell it the way we say it. We would say " THACO" and it would look like this in the book THAC0. sorry.
Kursk 07-12-07, 02:47 PM	It was just amazing to see how many people couldn't do simple math in their head. :dragon: **** When I sell to the younger crowd, <30 years old, I count on them not being able to add 2+2 in their head!
Ace_of_time 07-12-07, 02:53 PM	Their most likely looking at your post with the computer calculator up trying to do 2+2.:D
PenderGrass 07-12-07, 02:54 PM	She gets a deflection bonus equal to the number of schools and humpback whales she's given out. I'd say it's pretty damn high by now. For THACO (note the Oprah spelling), higher AC is bad. So, her AC would go down, she would likely have a -10 AC. :dragon: ****
High Octane 07-12-07, 02:57 PM	Much less rules then. Faster game play. Yes. Assuming the DM was able to make up oh, EVERYTHING. We actually spent a lot more time consulting charts and finding obscure rules in supplements for regular stuff since it wasnt in the base players handbook or even the DMG. Thaco wasnt hard to figure out, just counter-intuitive and had many situations where it was confusing (such as multiclassing) Then of course there were the thieving skills, and oh dear sweet heavenly GODS never look up the first edition grappling rules. Think they are bad now? First edition wasnt more COMPLICATED it was just a lot more confusing. 3.0-3.5 is relatively simple: You roll a 20 sided die, add your modifier, and get the result. If the result is equal to or greater than the check requirement, you succeed. If its lower you fail. Positive modifiers are good (bonus), negative are bad (penalties). This covers attack rolls, saving throws, and skill/ability checks. In fact the only thing that it doesnt cover that a player has to worry about is damage. 1st edition: A bonus could be positive or negative depending on the situation. You had to use d20s for some things, percentiles for others, d6s for still others, all for the "succeed/fail" rolls. And this was just for players. Edit: By the way, Phrennzy has like a 19 wisdom score so listen to him. By the way, how old are you Phrennzy? I mean, have you been around since the Gygaxian dyas where character sheets doubled as tissues in dispensability? As for the OP, take the advice and run some imaginary combat. Have your friends help. Best advice I can give: Don't try to make a world your first time. You will only cause your head to explode. Make a small dungeon first. When you have done that, make a town. Make believe the world doesn't exist outside your PCs little bubble. Your players will understand, if they even care to ask whats in the world outside their 60 feet of visibility, which they most likely wont. After you have DMd long enough to be able to do it without spending time looking up charts and second guessing your rulings, then make a world.
Ace_of_time 07-12-07, 02:58 PM	I hated the one with the abilities broke up into sub abilities. Str was muscle/stamina. I did like the % on thieving skills. in 2.0.
Hochiu 07-12-07, 02:59 PM	Why are you doing this? Tip: 1. Grab some graph paper and a pencil. 2. Close your eyes. 3. Draw a wandering line on the paper for 20 seconds. 3a. Open your eyes. 3b. Okay, using that line sketch out a really simple cave/dungeon. 4. Open the Monster Manual. There are going to be 2 goblins at the entrance. 3 goblins in the middle. And an orc at the end. 5. Make characters. 6. Kill the goblins and orc with the characters. 7. Look in the DMG for how much XP you should get. If you really want to award treasure, do it. 8. Do it again with a bigger cave/dungeon. Its so...simple... No fancy monsters, none of it. The boards needs more of this.
mvincent 07-12-07, 03:10 PM	First edition wasnt more COMPLICATED it was just a lot more confusing.Agreed. For the OP: for a short, easy adventure try Orc and Pie (http://www.montecook.com/arch_lineos11.html).
Sildatorak 07-12-07, 08:30 PM	For a slightly more irrational adventure, try The Orc and Pi.
PenderGrass 07-12-07, 08:46 PM	"The Orc and Pi" Adventure Background: An orc has magically calculated pi. Adventure Synopsis: The PCs must convince the orc they are friendly and get his pi calculation. Adventure Hook: The PCs like math. Room 1: The Orc's Pi Calculation Room You see an orc. He has magically calculated pi. The room is a 10 foot radius. Creature: An orc. Treasure: The knowledge of pi. Benefit - Allows you to use circular effects. Normal - You have to normally abide by square battle grids in all calculations for bizarre terms like "radius" and "circumference." Concluding the Adventure: Pi is more than 3.14. Further Adventures: Somewhere, there is a school calculating the speed of light. There are more orcs. :dragon: ****
Phrennzy 07-13-07, 11:00 AM	Edit: By the way, Phrennzy has like a 19 wisdom score so listen to him. By the way, how old are you Phrennzy? I mean, have you been around since the Gygaxian dyas where character sheets doubled as tissues in dispensability? Awwww, that's sweet. I'm old enough to have played with chits. Chits, for god's sake. But I still look young and beautiful.
High Octane 07-13-07, 03:20 PM	I'm old enough to have played with chits. Chits, for god's sake. I don't even know what those are.
PenderGrass 07-13-07, 03:45 PM	I don't even know what those are. Chits were used instead of polyhedron dice - so you would select a face down chit and that was what your "roll" would be. I, luckily, grew up in an area that sold polyhedron dice in that era (dice other than d6s were rare to very rare until after circa 1980). :dragon: ****
mvincent 07-13-07, 03:59 PM	I don't even know what those are.:P "You don't know chit"
Downtym 07-13-07, 05:48 PM	Yes? I needed a 10 to hit AC 0 so I need a 5 to hit AC 5. That took a tenth of a second to work out in my head... And I can do approximations of a binomial distribution for up to 8 dice pretty quickly without paper too! (The trick is: Learn how to stop worrying and love fractions!) But that doesn't mean you should have really silly mathematical operations in your game because you *really* like it when people subtract 10 from die rolls. (BUT ONLY IN COMBAT!) THAC0 and roll-under versus roll-over was like finding in someone's code: function int ValidateCombatRoll(int rolled, int target, int[] modifiers) {int modRoll = rolled; for (int i = 0; i < modifiers.Length; i++) {modRoll = modRoll + modifier[i]; } if ((modRoll - 10) >= target) {return ROLLSUCCESS; } else {return ROLLFAILURE; } } function int ValidateUnderRoll(int rolled, int target, int[] modifiers) {int modRoll = rolled; for (int i = 0; i < modifiers.Length; i++) {modRoll = modRoll + modifier[i]; } if (modRoll < target) {return ROLLSUCCESS; } else {return ROLLFAILURE; } } function int ValidateOverRoll(int rolled, int target, int[] modifiers) {int modRoll = rolled; for (int i = 0; i < modifiers.Length; i++) {modRoll = modRoll + modifier[i]; } if (modRoll >= target) {return ROLLSUCCESS; } else {return ROLLFAILURE; } } I have a much better idea, instead of doing it three ways, why don't we just normalize around ValidateOverRoll by adding 10 to the target in ValidateCombat? And we can get rid of ValidateUnderRoll by taking the probabilistic inverse of the target (Replacing a Target of 20 with 1, for example and 9 with 12) and fiddling with the modifiers. And now we have a unified mechanic for *every d20 roll* that is encapsulated simply by ValidateOverRoll. Man, that's a heck of a lot simpler.
Dracomortis 07-14-07, 11:51 AM	THAC0 and roll-under versus roll-over was like finding in someone's code: function int ValidateCombatRoll(int rolled, int target, int[] modifiers) {int modRoll = rolled; for (int i = 0; i < modifiers.Length; i++) {modRoll = modRoll + modifier[i]; } if ((modRoll - 10) >= target) {return ROLLSUCCESS; } else {return ROLLFAILURE; } } function int ValidateUnderRoll(int rolled, int target, int[] modifiers) {int modRoll = rolled; for (int i = 0; i < modifiers.Length; i++) {modRoll = modRoll + modifier[i]; } if (modRoll < target) {return ROLLSUCCESS; } else {return ROLLFAILURE; } } function int ValidateOverRoll(int rolled, int target, int[] modifiers) {int modRoll = rolled; for (int i = 0; i < modifiers.Length; i++) {modRoll = modRoll + modifier[i]; } if (modRoll >= target) {return ROLLSUCCESS; } else {return ROLLFAILURE; } } I have a much better idea, instead of doing it three ways, why don't we just normalize around ValidateOverRoll by adding 10 to the target in ValidateCombat? And we can get rid of ValidateUnderRoll by taking the probabilistic inverse of the target (Replacing a Target of 20 with 1, for example and 9 with 12) and fiddling with the modifiers. And now we have a unified mechanic for *every d20 roll* that is encapsulated simply by ValidateOverRoll. Man, that's a heck of a lot simpler. Uh-oh. Somebody forgot to declare variables. And where's your main function? :D C++ jokes aside, I really don't think the game is all that complicated. Sure, there's a lot of rules, but you don't need to know them all - if I'm not using a mount, I could care less about the rules for mounted combat. Likewise, if I'm a wizard, I'm probably not running around trying to bull rush my opponents or grapple the dragon (unless I use polymorph, but that entails a whole new load of headaches).
PenderGrass 07-14-07, 12:14 PM	One thing to also remember is - D&D is not a closed-book test, you can keep the DMG, PHB and MM right next to you. Use your players as well - if they are using spells that you are unsure of, they should have those pages marked for reference. Let them know that you expect them to have references pertaining their actions ready in case you need to see something. If you know how to use a table of contents, glossary and index - you should be all set. :dragon: ****
qmslager 07-15-07, 12:23 AM	One thing to also remember is - D&D is not a closed-book test, you can keep the DMG, PHB and MM right next to you. Use your players as well - if they are using spells that you are unsure of, they should have those pages marked for reference. Let them know that you expect them to have references pertaining their actions ready in case you need to see something. If you know how to use a table of contents, glossary and index - you should be all set. :dragon: **** It's an open book test at the RPGA. Seriously though D&D is complicated. If you think about all the mathematical mumbo jumbo as the only complication you are forgetting the other complicated parts. (and when I say math mumbo jumbo I mean it with all sincerity and love of calculus, but THAC0 was the worst headache ever, except for old middle earth roleplaying system). Let's start with the basic premise of perception mechanics. You say orc in the center of a square room. I think of an orc from the old hobbit cartoon. Someone else may see the artists interp from second edition and yet another person sees the orcs from WOW. And then what do you see in the room? Maybe a pool of blood, maybe carlsbad caverns maybe a nice erotic motif with sensual yet chaotic pictures of dwarven women. How you react to that orc then is determined by your perception of what that orc is doing in your mind. I play a half orc frenzied berzerker who is working towards eye of gruumsh. I see the orc as a potential partner, rival, mate or old friend. The elf in the party might see him as pure evl. The cleric might say he has potential. The paladin might wait to pass judgment. So from it's inception it is a very complicated game. Look at your basic games like poker or twister. there is an easy concept of win or lose, the rules are simple and one paged. There might be a couple of books on how to win. Board games same thing. maybe slightly more complicated rules, maybe more books on how to play, maybe they even write a computer game to beat someone. None of these are as complicated as roleplaying. Why? The world's best supercomputer creates roleplaying. Populates the roleplaying world. Moves the people. Shakes the world. Applies rules to it. In the end justifying a whole universe in a roll of dice, a jot of the pencil and three sentence descriptions that are meant to confer everything to someone else so they can cocreate this universe. This is complicated. it's not just math it's math plus psychology plus sociology plus storytelling. We play a very complex game. Yet it is not too complicated for your mind. however sometimes you can be overwhelmed. Like kursk says draw a line make a map throw in some bad guys you have a dungeon. That is perfectly true and a great way to make a quick dungeon. Unfortunately Immediately your mind stops thinking about that line and those baddies and starts worrying about the GM's curse. What is this Gm's curse? Well as you were creating the dungeons did you hear the whispered voice in the back of your head asking will they like it, would they enjoy the dungeon. is it too easy and if so will they laugh because it is and not want me to GM again. Is it too hard? Will they be ****** at me for making it too difficult? Will they enjoy themselves? What happens if I no longer DM? We all suffer from it, some a little more than others because we feel like they are relying on us for their enjoyment. Don't worry they are. But once they realize that you are there to enjoy something too then you can all enjoy it. Instead of creating the best dungeon ever from pencil scratches and miniatures. I suggest a fluid motion that includes the pencil marks and plot. If you have never read stephen King's on writing pick it up read it and incorporate some of the ideas you learn from that book into your game. Remember the best part of roleplaying is the co-authorship storytelling you are doing, without which it really would just be a dice and minis game. Once you understand the use of plot and climax in a story then you understand exactly why the simple throw in a monster in the middle can be good but is so much more exciting if the orc with glyphs of power inscribed up and down it's tattooed wrists is reading an ancient human skinned bound text. And if all you want them to do is dungeon clearing then remember this trick for figuring EL. Add up the PC levels divide by the number of players. So let's say five players each with one PC level one, divide that by five and you get Level one This is their party level. Throw at them encounters that total 4 times their total party level. But the CR of the most difficult creature or trap should never be more than 2 above their party level (even if the EL is). Example using that first level party. for a good dungeon clear throw at them 4 CR worth of monsters total. So that could be 1 orc, 2 fiendish dire rats, 3 human warrior skeletons, and a lone duergar with a level in adept. That's a complete first level dungeon, heck you could put the adept and the skeletons in the same room and now it's a challenging encounter worthy of their level At level 2 you send about 8 CR worth of creatures after them. 1 ogre, two orcs, and a rogue level 3. Or push the limit and send one carrion crawler and later a barghest at them. Or 5 CR 1 traps and a level 3 rogue. Try to space them accoringly and mix and match to make it really interesting. Once you get more experience you'll learn the best way to shape these encounters to increase excitement make it seem like death is possible while trying your hardest to not kill the PC's is by trusting yourself. Especially since my rule of thumb should never be used after level 5 unless you want a really difficult dungeon for their level. Once you trust yourself the GM's curse also starts to subside. Although even after 15 years of GM I can still hear it at times. Chris
High Octane 07-16-07, 02:58 PM	:P "You don't know chit" I winced at this one so hard my eyes actually hurt.
crashlogic 07-18-07, 08:08 PM	Well I started when DnD used the "First level fighter fights as Man +1, @nd Level Fighter fights as "2 Men" etc. and the whole D20 thing was an option.
Razieliffied 07-18-07, 08:23 PM	The worst thing you can do when entering the game is to read the rules first. The absolute worst thing you can do. It's recommended in the starter set that you play a game with someone who know's the rules already so they can explain things in ways that you can better understand, explain things related to the scenario at hand you are playing and because it's a social game not a game of rules. After you've spent some time playing and you think you have a grasp of how the basics work [Roll D20, Add modifiers, beat the DM's DC, rince and repeat in between roleplaying] then you can take a glance over things in the players handbook. Compare how the class you are playing looks to another class, look at different equipment, twitch at the size of the 'spell's' chapter at the end of the book [you don't have to memorize all of this, I wouldn't recomend trying either, not for a newer player]. When it comes to DMing experience is very essential sadly. Whilst I have no doubts that you could sit and work out everything you need with our help here on the boards you have to understand that good DM's take years to get where they are. I myself have DMed since I was 14 or so, because no-one else in the group wanted to. I barely knew the rules by that point and it's been a very long and difficult process to finally become a moderately good player/DM with an extablished group. All I can really say on top of this is have fun, your playing a game and not playing rules so go out and bend the rules until you understand how they work properly. I find that the roleplaying is far more fun then the combat.
mvincent 07-18-07, 08:27 PM	Well I started when DnD used the "First level fighter fights as Man +1, @nd Level Fighter fights as "2 Men" etc. and the whole D20 thing was an option.Bah! Noob. You know that Ancient Roman d20 (http://www.dicecollector.com/diceinfo_roman.PNG)?... that's right... I was 14th level* even before we started making those dice... * it was called "level XIV" back then
sambudak 07-18-07, 08:29 PM	Well try Castles&Crusades. Its a D20 game but cut-down to basics. Troll Lord Games makes it-- they have a free pdf with a lite version of the rules for test driving.
PenderGrass 07-18-07, 11:50 PM	I have actually fought real monsters and Tiamat, after going through a mystical roller-coaster ride. :dragon: ****
danyc 07-19-07, 02:57 AM	Yes? I needed a 10 to hit AC 0 so I need a 5 to hit AC 5. That took a tenth of a second to work out in my head... THAC0 and Dragons taught me how to do math with negative numbers long before school did :D
Sildatorak 07-19-07, 11:45 AM	Psh...I invented negative numbers when I was in first grade and accidentally subtracted the big number from the small number.
Kurikin 07-19-07, 01:02 PM	Psh...I invented negative numbers when I was in first grade and accidentally subtracted the big number from the small number. I did that exact same thing. I also invented decimals and fractions but my teacher told me (and the rest of the class) that they didn't exist.
dknight100 07-19-07, 08:09 PM	Just relax. Since you're designing the dungeon, I take it you are the DM. D&D mostly has all the things that are driving you nuts to set a baseline for play for the millions of people who play it. There aren't any D&D police waiting to kick down your door if you players have wealth out of line for their level or if the monsters have more or less treasure than they should. Until you get more experience, I'd say just make sure that the dungeon is fairly static. If the PC's can retreat to safety to heal and regain spells you probably won't kill any. Throw in some monsters with CR from 1/2 to 2, put in some treasure for them to find, and call it a day. If it seems like it was too easy, use harder monsters next time, if it seems too hard, use easier ones next time. As long as the group is having fun, you're doing it right. Sure thing... try telling that to the DnDPD :P
DrMorganes 07-19-07, 11:36 PM	THACO???? No. It was "THAC0", with a zero at the end. It was an acronym for "To Hit Armor Class 0". **cue flashback dissolve** Back in the days of AD&D, the Dungeon Master's Guide had two pages of tables in approximately the middle of the book which were detailed matrices of class, level, opponent's AC, and the number one needed to roll on the trusty d20 to land a decent hit. When TSR released the 2nd Edition of AD&D (Phren is misremembering his timeline a bit), they introduced the concept of THAC0. Essentially, some boy genius noticed the pattern in the original combat matrices were based around AC0 (AC in those days went from 10 [totally unarmored] to -10 [nearly impossible to hit]; AC0 was right in the middle). THAC0 advanced at a given rate (the same, actually, as today's BAB progressions) based on your class category: Warrior, Rogue, Priest, or Mage (don't ask). To figure your "To Hit" number, you subtracted your opponent's AC from your THAC0 number. **end flashback sequence** It truly was a major improvement over the blasted tables, and nowhere nearly the evil mechanic many people seem to describe it as being. It was nowhere near the easy "add every bonus to 10 and roll that sucker" method we use now, but it was what we had - and we liked it! Well, some of us liked it. Some folks never did get it...
Sildatorak 07-20-07, 12:02 AM	THAC0 advanced at a given rate (the same, actually, as today's BAB progressions) based on your class category: Warrior, Rogue, Priest, or Mage (don't ask).The categories were roughly the same, but the progressions were different. Everyone had THAC0 20 at level 1, warrior classes went down by 1/level, rogues (thieves and bards) went down by 1 every 2 levels, priests (clerics, druids) went down by 2 every 3 levels (not by 1 and 1 and 0, mind you), and mage classes went down by 1 every 3? 1 every 4? I can't recall off the top of my head, but it doesn't matter since you can't hit anything if you're a mage.
MyNameForevermore 07-20-07, 01:01 AM	I think I sucked worse than you at my first adventure. 2 level 1 pcs against an adult white dragon = TPK Wait... PCs died against a WHITE dragon?
Feeb 07-20-07, 01:32 AM	The categories were roughly the same, but the progressions were different. Everyone had THAC0 20 at level 1, warrior classes went down by 1/level, rogues (thieves and bards) went down by 1 every 2 levels, priests (clerics, druids) went down by 2 every 3 levels (not by 1 and 1 and 0, mind you), and mage classes went down by 1 every 3? 1 every 4? I can't recall off the top of my head, but it doesn't matter since you can't hit anything if you're a mage. Yeah, mage advancement was 1/3. Still a moot point, since you got that incredibly bad to hit penalty with anything other than a dagger, dart, knife or quarter staff. TSR later revised it a bit in one of the "Player's Option" books and again in the "faith and pantheons" book (I forget the title on the last one, only saw it used once.) the major problem with thac0, imo, was that it kind of artificial constrained things, since -10 AC was the RAW best possible AC, which in turn capped thac0. I vastly perfer the "uncapped" AC system in 3.X Of course, this is the same edition that had 1gp "gained" equaling 1 xp, which of course lead to all kinds of silliness.
meabolex 07-20-07, 01:24 PM	There aren't any D&D police waiting to kick down your door if you players have wealth out of line for their level or if the monsters have more or less treasure than they should. In 1974 a crack rules-lawyering unit was sent home from the gaming store by an authoritarian DM for a rules error they did not commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security basement to the Wizards D&D Forums. Today, still unwanted by any game, they survive as soldiers of slanted rhetoric. If you have a problem, if no one else remembers the PH page, and if they happen to be online, maybe you can hire the D&D Police.
mvincent 07-20-07, 01:49 PM	In 1974 a crack rules-lawyering unit was sent home from the gaming store by an authoritarian DM for a rules error they did not commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security basement to the Wizards D&D Forums. Today, still unwanted by any game, they survive as soldiers of slanted rhetoric. If you have a problem, if no one else remembers the PH page, and if they happen to be online, maybe you can hire the D&D Police.:clap:
Elessar 07-21-07, 12:32 AM	In 1974 a crack rules-lawyering unit was sent home from the gaming store by an authoritarian DM for a rules error they did not commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security basement to the Wizards D&D Forums. Today, still unwanted by any game, they survive as soldiers of slanted rhetoric. If you have a problem, if no one else remembers the PH page, and if they happen to be online, maybe you can hire the D&D Police. Hannibal, I ain't gittin' on no gryphon!
ColonelPanic 07-21-07, 09:46 AM	If you think its bad now you should have seen the 1st edition days. I think the 1st Edition AD&D was pretty clear compared to 3.5 of today. There were about 8 books you needed as a DM, not 50. There was not so many ambiguous rules.
Sildatorak 07-22-07, 08:52 PM	There was not so many ambiguous rules.Bull:censored:. The rules were not as consistent across the board, which led to the most important rule being "the DM should make something up, be it saving throw, ability check, percentile, or whatever." it may have run more smoothly than a DM who looks up every bit of rules minutia now, but the game varied greatly from DM to DM. The rules now may not be as concise, but they are definitely less ambiguous.