Dark Creature Template and HiPS [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dark Creature Template and HiPS [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Meat_Shield
08-15-07, 02:51 AM WAIT! Before you respond to this thread because you saw HiPS PLEASE read the entire post! In Tome of Magic, page 161 the Dark Creature template grants the HiPS ability. The full entry is as follows.

Hide In Plain Sight(EX): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).

The other HiPS abilites have similar text but also include something about not needing cover or concealment. A good example of this is the Shadow Dancers HiPS ability which says "without anything to actually hide behind" which I read, in game terms, without needing cover or concealment.

With the above information, I would assume that one still must have cover or concealment to hide though they can do so even while being observed when using the HiPS ability granted by the Dark Creature template. Am I wrong in my assumption? If so, please elaborate as to why.

*My argument is continued below for those that wish to read on*

The Hide skill in the PHB plainly states that cover or concealment is required for one to use the hide skill. One cannot hide when adjacent (next to) someone and cannot hide while being observed (The exception to these is if they have total cover/concealment in which case a hide check is not needed). The Dark Creature template, as I read it, modifies the hide skill so that it looks something like the following.

"Hide while being observed as long as you have cover or concealment, are not next\adjacent to a creature, and are not in an area of natural daylight, daylight spell, or a similar effect".

No where does it mention in the HiPS ability granted by the Dark Creature template that the cover/concealment requirement are no longer required. I've also sent this request to WoTC's customer service but I wanted to get some other opinons on this as well.

The only real argument or case I can see for allowing this ability to be used without cover/concealment is that either 1) It is assumed that all HiPS abilities allow one to hide w/o cover or concealment (If so where is this information/ruling found?) or 2) That the entry is explicit meaning that it completely overrides the Hide skill description of the PHB and replaces it with the HiPS ability text which would also mean the character could hide while standing next to someone, can hide while being observed, can hide with someone with dark vision (Add the Dark Stalker feat out of Lords of Madness and things get gross), and can hide without cover/concealment. (as long as they weren't in one of the limiting conditions mentioned in the ability text).

Before I go - One last request. List the ways a character can be detected (aside from making listen/spot checks) if using the HiPS ability (as mentioned above) if the character also has the Dark Stalker Feat which says: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense most must a listen or Spot check to notice you just as sighted creatures would make....

In short, what other Senses are their? Life sense but only powerful undead have that (and only some like the Dread Wraith). Detect Thoughts would work to some extent along with other area effect/spells (daylight being obvious). But I'm looking for other "sense" like Life Sense that would detect such a character.

Thanks again!
turalisj
08-15-07, 08:03 AM If a PC has Darkstalker, an impossibly high hide and ms, and HiPS, you are screwed. Throw in sneak attack, and you have just broke the rouge.
Nom
08-15-07, 10:05 AM With the above information, I would assume that one still must have cover or concealment to hide though they can do so even while being observed when using the HiPS ability granted by the Dark Creature template. Am I wrong in my assumption? If so, please elaborate as to why.Fundamentally, the "Hide in plain sight" ability allows you to attempt to hide even while observed. Normally, you cannot hide from a creature that is currently observing you; with HiPS you can.

Many versions of HiPS restrict when this can be done. For example, a ranger can only do it in natural terrain.

In addition, some classes or creatures have the ability to Hide without meeting the normal cover or concealment requirements. For example, the ranger's Camoflage abilty. In the case of the Shadowdancer, these two abilities are combined into a single HiPS ability entry. That this ability combines them does not set a precedent for any other version of HiPS.
Before I go - One last request. List the ways a character can be detected (aside from making listen/spot checks) if using the HiPS ability (as mentioned above) if the character also has the Dark Stalker Feat which says: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense most must a listen or Spot check to notice you just as sighted creatures would make....That's a very open-ended request. As you note, several of the detect spells could locate the creature, though they all suffer from the 3 rounds of concentration requirement. glitterdust, faerie fire and the like will highlight even hidden creatures within their area of effect, making hiding very difficult. Many techniques to detect invisible creatures will also work, though direct detection by see invisibility will not (since the target is not actually invisible, merely hard to spot).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meat_Shield 08-15-07, 02:51 AM	WAIT! Before you respond to this thread because you saw HiPS PLEASE read the entire post! In Tome of Magic, page 161 the Dark Creature template grants the HiPS ability. The full entry is as follows. Hide In Plain Sight(EX): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect). The other HiPS abilites have similar text but also include something about not needing cover or concealment. A good example of this is the Shadow Dancers HiPS ability which says "without anything to actually hide behind" which I read, in game terms, without needing cover or concealment. With the above information, I would assume that one still must have cover or concealment to hide though they can do so even while being observed when using the HiPS ability granted by the Dark Creature template. Am I wrong in my assumption? If so, please elaborate as to why. My argument is continued below for those that wish to read on The Hide skill in the PHB plainly states that cover or concealment is required for one to use the hide skill. One cannot hide when adjacent (next to) someone and cannot hide while being observed (The exception to these is if they have total cover/concealment in which case a hide check is not needed). The Dark Creature template, as I read it, modifies the hide skill so that it looks something like the following. "Hide while being observed as long as you have cover or concealment, are not next\adjacent to a creature, and are not in an area of natural daylight, daylight spell, or a similar effect". No where does it mention in the HiPS ability granted by the Dark Creature template that the cover/concealment requirement are no longer required. I've also sent this request to WoTC's customer service but I wanted to get some other opinons on this as well. The only real argument or case I can see for allowing this ability to be used without cover/concealment is that either 1) It is assumed that all HiPS abilities allow one to hide w/o cover or concealment (If so where is this information/ruling found?) or 2) That the entry is explicit meaning that it completely overrides the Hide skill description of the PHB and replaces it with the HiPS ability text which would also mean the character could hide while standing next to someone, can hide while being observed, can hide with someone with dark vision (Add the Dark Stalker feat out of Lords of Madness and things get gross), and can hide without cover/concealment. (as long as they weren't in one of the limiting conditions mentioned in the ability text). Before I go - One last request. List the ways a character can be detected (aside from making listen/spot checks) if using the HiPS ability (as mentioned above) if the character also has the Dark Stalker Feat which says: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense most must a listen or Spot check to notice you just as sighted creatures would make.... In short, what other Senses are their? Life sense but only powerful undead have that (and only some like the Dread Wraith). Detect Thoughts would work to some extent along with other area effect/spells (daylight being obvious). But I'm looking for other "sense" like Life Sense that would detect such a character. Thanks again!
turalisj 08-15-07, 08:03 AM	If a PC has Darkstalker, an impossibly high hide and ms, and HiPS, you are screwed. Throw in sneak attack, and you have just broke the rouge.
Nom 08-15-07, 10:05 AM	With the above information, I would assume that one still must have cover or concealment to hide though they can do so even while being observed when using the HiPS ability granted by the Dark Creature template. Am I wrong in my assumption? If so, please elaborate as to why.Fundamentally, the "Hide in plain sight" ability allows you to attempt to hide even while observed. Normally, you cannot hide from a creature that is currently observing you; with HiPS you can. Many versions of HiPS restrict when this can be done. For example, a ranger can only do it in natural terrain. In addition, some classes or creatures have the ability to Hide without meeting the normal cover or concealment requirements. For example, the ranger's Camoflage abilty. In the case of the Shadowdancer, these two abilities are combined into a single HiPS ability entry. That this ability combines them does not set a precedent for any other version of HiPS. Before I go - One last request. List the ways a character can be detected (aside from making listen/spot checks) if using the HiPS ability (as mentioned above) if the character also has the Dark Stalker Feat which says: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense most must a listen or Spot check to notice you just as sighted creatures would make....That's a very open-ended request. As you note, several of the detect spells could locate the creature, though they all suffer from the 3 rounds of concentration requirement. glitterdust, faerie fire and the like will highlight even hidden creatures within their area of effect, making hiding very difficult. Many techniques to detect invisible creatures will also work, though direct detection by see invisibility will not (since the target is not actually invisible, merely hard to spot).