Darkvision and Hiding in Shadows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Darkvision and Hiding in Shadows [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sorath
05-05-07, 06:50 PM I cant remember where I saw the rule, but isn't there something somewhere that says you cannot hide in shadows from someone who has darkvision? If anyone knows, can you cite the reference? Or tell me if I am imagining things.
Nom
05-05-07, 07:31 PM By "hide in shadows" do you mean "Hide in plain sight" (shadowdancer ability) or just "Hide"?

If the latter, it's got nothing specifically to do with shadows. You need either cover or concealment to hide. Darkvision treats the area as well lit out to its range limit. Ergo, conventional shadowy illumination provides no concealment benefit against a creature with darkvision. Ergo, you can't Hide from them.

Some effects provide visual concealment not related to natural illumination levels: obscuring mist, for example, or darkness (which explicitly provides concealment vs darkvision). You can use this concealment to Hide.

Note: Hiding is always "from something", even if you don't know what that something is. A halfling is in a pitch-black room, and decides to conceal herself in case anything is watching. The human in the room automatically fails his Spot check, since he can't see anything anyway. The dwarf and the grimlock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grimlock.htm) can see her just fine.

The halfling then triggers a wand of darkness. This has no effect on the human, since he's blind. The halfling now has concealment against the dwarf. Since she's already been spotted, she makes a Bluff check to distract him and then Hides. The grimlock uses blindsight, so can still see her just fine.

Finally, the halfling triggers a silence effect from her magic ring. She now has total concealment from the grimlock, concealment from the dwarf (but is hidden), and total concealment from the human.

Annoyed, the human lights a torch. darkness reduces this to shadowy illumination, providing concealment to the halfling. The human can now make a Spot check to attempt to spot her. The grimlock gains no benefit. Neither does the dwarf, because the torch is no better than his natural darkvision.
Sorath
05-05-07, 07:45 PM Nom, is there somewhere in the rule books that I can cite the information you provided here about not being able to hide in shadows from darkvision (just regular darkness and no HIPS). Or is it a matter of concealment and the fact that if you can see in the dark, there is no concealment. Is it just in the description I am missing?
Timori
05-05-07, 08:46 PM To hide you need cover or concealment (PHB76) except under special circumstances.

Under Concealment (PHB152), a shadowy area or darkness does not provide concealment against darkvision.
Sorath
05-05-07, 09:17 PM Thanks. I found it.

Now, lets say he was hidden and he moves into viewing range of someone with darkvision. Is he hidden to that person? Would there at least be some bonus to the spot check?

Thanks.
tos_shai_hulud
05-05-07, 10:24 PM Thanks. I found it.

Now, lets say he was hidden and he moves into viewing range of someone with darkvision. Is he hidden to that person? Would there at least be some bonus to the spot check?

Thanks.

This is very situational. If the creature who is hiding moves into viewing range of someone with darkvision, but that creature is turned the other way, it would have no way of spotting it. This allows you to sneak up behind someone, but not in front of them. If at any point in time, the creature decides to turn around, the spot check is automatic. Because of this, if the creature's attention is engaged, then it would be some opposed roll to break its attention. Perhaps Bluff vs. Sense Motive. Perhaps Listen vs. Move Silently. Because of the various possibilities of circumstances, this question cannot be answered definitively.
Inigo Carmine
05-05-07, 10:44 PM Sorath, you're not going to find a specific rule for this, it's just a combination of basic rules.

Unless otherwise stated, you need cover or concealment to hide. For people with darkvision, mundane shadows & darkness do not provide concealment.
Sorath
05-05-07, 11:23 PM I get you both. I think in any case, there would certainly be spot checks and listen checks applicable. Most likely rolled by the DM behind screen.

Thanks for all of the help.
Nom
05-06-07, 08:07 PM Note that once a character is using the tactical resolution system, they cannot be "snuck up on" unless the sneaker has cover or concealment (normal or total); the rules assume that even characters in combat check in all directions for threats.

This probably isn't totally realistic, but is mechanically a lot simpler than judging perception and facing, especially since each turn models 6 seconds of movement and activity (just because you're looking in direction X at the moment doesn't mean that you can't have looked in another direction over the previous 6 seconds).
mvincent
05-07-07, 12:45 PM you're not going to find a specific rule for thisFrom the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm):
"A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
DreadArchon
05-07-07, 01:01 PM mvincent beat me to it.

Still, there's always the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness, yes?
Inigo Carmine
05-07-07, 01:35 PM Sorath, you're not going to find a specific rule for this, it's just a combination of basic rules.

From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm):
"A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."

....of course I could be wrong. ;)

The funny thing is, this is actually incorrect (or at least incomplete). In addition to cover or invisibility, concealment granted from anything other than the darkness can still be used to hide.
mvincent
05-07-07, 01:41 PM The funny thing is, this is actually incorrect (or at least incomplete).Well, the text also implies that say, a Dwarf could not hide within 60 feet of himself. So some interpretation on the context is required.
OneBallJay
05-08-07, 01:44 PM Well, the text also implies that say, a Dwarf could not hide within 60 feet of himself. So some interpretation on the context is required.I believe the dwarf's beard provides their body with concealment from their eyes. :)
sparkster4242
05-18-07, 02:31 AM i feel the urge to point out that as soon as that halfling triggers a wand of Darkness, the human gets to make a new spot check, because the Darkness spell not only provides concealment, but also radiates shadowy illumination - making it possible to hide from the Dwarf, but also possible to _fail_ to hide from the human.

welcome to 3.5 :p
Shigure
01-16-08, 02:49 PM Ring of the Darkhidden takes care of your problem in one easy purchase. Creatures with darkvision cannot see you with the ring on but you are still visible/detectable by other means.:D
PenderGrass
01-16-08, 05:06 PM Note that once a character is using the tactical resolution system, they cannot be "snuck up on" unless the sneaker has cover or concealment (normal or total); the rules assume that even characters in combat check in all directions for threats.

This probably isn't totally realistic, but is mechanically a lot simpler than judging perception and facing, especially since each turn models 6 seconds of movement and activity (just because you're looking in direction X at the moment doesn't mean that you can't have looked in another direction over the previous 6 seconds).
Tactical situation or not, characters in v3.5 D&D are considered to have the same chance of seeing anything approaching from any direction.

In other words, there is never a "facing" and it is impossible for a guard (or anyone else) to be "looking the other way."

:dragon:
*****
celloshane
01-17-08, 01:08 PM i feel the urge to point out that as soon as that halfling triggers a wand of Darkness, the human gets to make a new spot check, because the Darkness spell not only provides concealment, but also radiates shadowy illumination - making it possible to hide from the Dwarf, but also possible to _fail_ to hide from the human.

welcome to 3.5 :p

This is a deliberate misinterpretation of the text, make a save vs sarcasm.

Note that once a character is using the tactical resolution system, they cannot be "snuck up on" unless the sneaker has cover or concealment (normal or total); the rules assume that even characters in combat check in all directions for threats.

There is a ruling for this, but I forget where to find it at the moment (it may be in Sage Advice or the FAQ). The hiding character can make a hide check to move out of cover/concealment taking a penalty for every 5 feet of movement. I believe the penalty is -5 for every 5 feet. This would allow a character to move from concealment and cross an open area and not be seen (and allows a sneak attack).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sorath 05-05-07, 06:50 PM	I cant remember where I saw the rule, but isn't there something somewhere that says you cannot hide in shadows from someone who has darkvision? If anyone knows, can you cite the reference? Or tell me if I am imagining things.
Nom 05-05-07, 07:31 PM	By "hide in shadows" do you mean "Hide in plain sight" (shadowdancer ability) or just "Hide"? If the latter, it's got nothing specifically to do with shadows. You need either cover or concealment to hide. Darkvision treats the area as well lit out to its range limit. Ergo, conventional shadowy illumination provides no concealment benefit against a creature with darkvision. Ergo, you can't Hide from them. Some effects provide visual concealment not related to natural illumination levels: obscuring mist, for example, or darkness (which explicitly provides concealment vs darkvision). You can use this concealment to Hide. Note: Hiding is always "from something", even if you don't know what that something is. A halfling is in a pitch-black room, and decides to conceal herself in case anything is watching. The human in the room automatically fails his Spot check, since he can't see anything anyway. The dwarf and the grimlock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grimlock.htm) can see her just fine. The halfling then triggers a wand of darkness. This has no effect on the human, since he's blind. The halfling now has concealment against the dwarf. Since she's already been spotted, she makes a Bluff check to distract him and then Hides. The grimlock uses blindsight, so can still see her just fine. Finally, the halfling triggers a silence effect from her magic ring. She now has total concealment from the grimlock, concealment from the dwarf (but is hidden), and total concealment from the human. Annoyed, the human lights a torch. darkness reduces this to shadowy illumination, providing concealment to the halfling. The human can now make a Spot check to attempt to spot her. The grimlock gains no benefit. Neither does the dwarf, because the torch is no better than his natural darkvision.
Sorath 05-05-07, 07:45 PM	Nom, is there somewhere in the rule books that I can cite the information you provided here about not being able to hide in shadows from darkvision (just regular darkness and no HIPS). Or is it a matter of concealment and the fact that if you can see in the dark, there is no concealment. Is it just in the description I am missing?
Timori 05-05-07, 08:46 PM	To hide you need cover or concealment (PHB76) except under special circumstances. Under Concealment (PHB152), a shadowy area or darkness does not provide concealment against darkvision.
Sorath 05-05-07, 09:17 PM	Thanks. I found it. Now, lets say he was hidden and he moves into viewing range of someone with darkvision. Is he hidden to that person? Would there at least be some bonus to the spot check? Thanks.
tos_shai_hulud 05-05-07, 10:24 PM	Thanks. I found it. Now, lets say he was hidden and he moves into viewing range of someone with darkvision. Is he hidden to that person? Would there at least be some bonus to the spot check? Thanks. This is very situational. If the creature who is hiding moves into viewing range of someone with darkvision, but that creature is turned the other way, it would have no way of spotting it. This allows you to sneak up behind someone, but not in front of them. If at any point in time, the creature decides to turn around, the spot check is automatic. Because of this, if the creature's attention is engaged, then it would be some opposed roll to break its attention. Perhaps Bluff vs. Sense Motive. Perhaps Listen vs. Move Silently. Because of the various possibilities of circumstances, this question cannot be answered definitively.
Inigo Carmine 05-05-07, 10:44 PM	Sorath, you're not going to find a specific rule for this, it's just a combination of basic rules. Unless otherwise stated, you need cover or concealment to hide. For people with darkvision, mundane shadows & darkness do not provide concealment.
Sorath 05-05-07, 11:23 PM	I get you both. I think in any case, there would certainly be spot checks and listen checks applicable. Most likely rolled by the DM behind screen. Thanks for all of the help.
Nom 05-06-07, 08:07 PM	Note that once a character is using the tactical resolution system, they cannot be "snuck up on" unless the sneaker has cover or concealment (normal or total); the rules assume that even characters in combat check in all directions for threats. This probably isn't totally realistic, but is mechanically a lot simpler than judging perception and facing, especially since each turn models 6 seconds of movement and activity (just because you're looking in direction X at the moment doesn't mean that you can't have looked in another direction over the previous 6 seconds).
mvincent 05-07-07, 12:45 PM	you're not going to find a specific rule for thisFrom the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm): "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
DreadArchon 05-07-07, 01:01 PM	mvincent beat me to it. Still, there's always the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness, yes?
Inigo Carmine 05-07-07, 01:35 PM	Sorath, you're not going to find a specific rule for this, it's just a combination of basic rules. From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm): "A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover." ....of course I could be wrong. ;) The funny thing is, this is actually incorrect (or at least incomplete). In addition to cover or invisibility, concealment granted from anything other than the darkness can still be used to hide.
mvincent 05-07-07, 01:41 PM	The funny thing is, this is actually incorrect (or at least incomplete).Well, the text also implies that say, a Dwarf could not hide within 60 feet of himself. So some interpretation on the context is required.
OneBallJay 05-08-07, 01:44 PM	Well, the text also implies that say, a Dwarf could not hide within 60 feet of himself. So some interpretation on the context is required.I believe the dwarf's beard provides their body with concealment from their eyes. :)
sparkster4242 05-18-07, 02:31 AM	i feel the urge to point out that as soon as that halfling triggers a wand of Darkness, the human gets to make a new spot check, because the Darkness spell not only provides concealment, but also radiates shadowy illumination - making it possible to hide from the Dwarf, but also possible to _fail_ to hide from the human. welcome to 3.5 :p
Shigure 01-16-08, 02:49 PM	Ring of the Darkhidden takes care of your problem in one easy purchase. Creatures with darkvision cannot see you with the ring on but you are still visible/detectable by other means.:D
PenderGrass 01-16-08, 05:06 PM	Note that once a character is using the tactical resolution system, they cannot be "snuck up on" unless the sneaker has cover or concealment (normal or total); the rules assume that even characters in combat check in all directions for threats. This probably isn't totally realistic, but is mechanically a lot simpler than judging perception and facing, especially since each turn models 6 seconds of movement and activity (just because you're looking in direction X at the moment doesn't mean that you can't have looked in another direction over the previous 6 seconds). Tactical situation or not, characters in v3.5 D&D are considered to have the same chance of seeing anything approaching from any direction. In other words, there is never a "facing" and it is impossible for a guard (or anyone else) to be "looking the other way." :dragon: *****
celloshane 01-17-08, 01:08 PM	i feel the urge to point out that as soon as that halfling triggers a wand of Darkness, the human gets to make a new spot check, because the Darkness spell not only provides concealment, but also radiates shadowy illumination - making it possible to hide from the Dwarf, but also possible to _fail_ to hide from the human. welcome to 3.5 :p This is a deliberate misinterpretation of the text, make a save vs sarcasm. Note that once a character is using the tactical resolution system, they cannot be "snuck up on" unless the sneaker has cover or concealment (normal or total); the rules assume that even characters in combat check in all directions for threats. There is a ruling for this, but I forget where to find it at the moment (it may be in Sage Advice or the FAQ). The hiding character can make a hide check to move out of cover/concealment taking a penalty for every 5 feet of movement. I believe the penalty is -5 for every 5 feet. This would allow a character to move from concealment and cross an open area and not be seen (and allows a sneak attack).