Death and Dying for Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Death and Dying for Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Singe0255
05-31-07, 02:54 AM The Monster Manual description of the Undead template specifically states that Undead die immediately when they hit zero hit points.

It makes no such concession for any of the other monsterous templates and gives no specific details as to how to treat monsters that are unconscious or disabled.

It was the belief of one of my groupmates that the above restriction on death and dying (that applied to Undead) held true for several other creature types; particularly the ones who have no organs and are immune to critical hits. (Elementals, Oozes, Constructs, etc.) We've found no basis for this assumption in our myriad of source books.

So the question was presented in the following situation and may perhaps carry a different ruling due the nature of the being so affected:

Question: What is the result when an Air Elemental familiar is reduced to fewer than zero hit points? And is there a difference if the Air Elemental is not a familiar?

Please reply with the answer (if one exists), and the source book and page number where the answer can be located for valididty.
Morwen
05-31-07, 04:41 AM The result is the same as it would be for a Human. I have no page reference for this, because the answer comes from the rules for Death and Dying (which you already have access to) and the fact that the Elemental type does not say it is an exception to the normal rules.

In general, things that are exceptions to normal rules will say so. The rules can't specifically write down everything that adheres to normal rules (the book would be humongous if it were to do that :))

In most monster-encounters, this won't matter much. The PCs should, if they're experienced adventurers, coup-de-grace those that are still breathing, unless they want to wake them for questioning.
Singe0255
05-31-07, 06:11 AM Also, on an additional note:

The familiar in question died anyway (whether from hitting 0 or -10), and he had a magical item on him. Does the corpse of a summoned extraplanar creature return to its native plane with all items intact?

Does this outcome change if the creature is called, summoned, or conjured?
Nom
05-31-07, 07:59 AM The familiar in question died anyway (whether from hitting 0 or -10), and he had a magical item on him. Does the corpse of a summoned extraplanar creature return to its native plane with all items intact?A summoned creature ceases to exist when it hits zero hit points (or when the spell ends). Any items possessed by it when it was summoned vanish, and any ongoing spells or effects created by the creature immediately end. Any items it has acquired in the meantime are immediately dropped.

There's an whole 'nother discussion on what a summoned creature is. It might be a likeness of a specific creature, or just the likeness of a conceptual creature. In any case, it's not "real" in the same way that a teleported or called creature is.
Does this outcome change if the creature is called, summoned, or conjured?Very much so. A summoned creature isn't "real", in the sense of an actual individual creature physically transported to another plane. A called creature is real, and is subject to all the normal rules for real creatures.
Phrennzy
05-31-07, 10:39 AM I am also pretty sure you can't use a summoned creature as your familiar (without DM say so).

So an Air Elemental familiar would have to be Called. Then when it dies, it's corpse remains where it fell. Magic Items included.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-31-07, 11:02 AM > The Monster Manual description of the Undead template specifically states
> that Undead die immediately when they hit zero hit points.
>
> It makes no such concession for any of the other monsterous templates and
> gives no specific details as to how to treat monsters that are unconscious or
> disabled.

It does for Constructs. They're also immediately destroyed upon reaching 0 HP.
mvincent
05-31-07, 01:26 PM It was the belief of one of my groupmates that the above restriction on death and dying (that applied to Undead) held true for several other creature types; particularly the ones who have no organs and are immune to critical hits. (Elementals, Oozes, Constructs, etc.) We've found no basis for this assumption in our myriad of source books.As mentioned: this only holds true for undead, constructs and summoned creatures.

What is the result when an Air Elemental familiar is reduced to fewer than zero hit points?It is dying (and will be dead at -10 unless it stabilizes). D&D doesn't address what happens to the bodies of elementals and outsiders, but many DM's rule that air and fire elementals evaporate, as do some outsiders (especially on their home plane, where the plane reclaims their energy).
Marcus Majarra
06-01-07, 12:34 PM Any ongoing spells or effects created by the creature immediately end. Any items it has acquired in the meantime are immediately dropped.
Where's this from?
mvincent
06-01-07, 01:27 PM Where's this from?Per the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning):
"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire."

From the Sage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070508a):
"When a summoned creature goes away, so does everything it came with.
If it’s holding or wearing something it didn’t appear with, that item drops to the ground in the creature’s space after it disappears."
Marcus Majarra
06-01-07, 09:45 PM Many thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Singe0255 05-31-07, 02:54 AM	The Monster Manual description of the Undead template specifically states that Undead die immediately when they hit zero hit points. It makes no such concession for any of the other monsterous templates and gives no specific details as to how to treat monsters that are unconscious or disabled. It was the belief of one of my groupmates that the above restriction on death and dying (that applied to Undead) held true for several other creature types; particularly the ones who have no organs and are immune to critical hits. (Elementals, Oozes, Constructs, etc.) We've found no basis for this assumption in our myriad of source books. So the question was presented in the following situation and may perhaps carry a different ruling due the nature of the being so affected: Question: What is the result when an Air Elemental familiar is reduced to fewer than zero hit points? And is there a difference if the Air Elemental is not a familiar? Please reply with the answer (if one exists), and the source book and page number where the answer can be located for valididty.
Morwen 05-31-07, 04:41 AM	The result is the same as it would be for a Human. I have no page reference for this, because the answer comes from the rules for Death and Dying (which you already have access to) and the fact that the Elemental type does not say it is an exception to the normal rules. In general, things that are exceptions to normal rules will say so. The rules can't specifically write down everything that adheres to normal rules (the book would be humongous if it were to do that :)) In most monster-encounters, this won't matter much. The PCs should, if they're experienced adventurers, coup-de-grace those that are still breathing, unless they want to wake them for questioning.
Singe0255 05-31-07, 06:11 AM	Also, on an additional note: The familiar in question died anyway (whether from hitting 0 or -10), and he had a magical item on him. Does the corpse of a summoned extraplanar creature return to its native plane with all items intact? Does this outcome change if the creature is called, summoned, or conjured?
Nom 05-31-07, 07:59 AM	The familiar in question died anyway (whether from hitting 0 or -10), and he had a magical item on him. Does the corpse of a summoned extraplanar creature return to its native plane with all items intact?A summoned creature ceases to exist when it hits zero hit points (or when the spell ends). Any items possessed by it when it was summoned vanish, and any ongoing spells or effects created by the creature immediately end. Any items it has acquired in the meantime are immediately dropped. There's an whole 'nother discussion on what a summoned creature is. It might be a likeness of a specific creature, or just the likeness of a conceptual creature. In any case, it's not "real" in the same way that a teleported or called creature is. Does this outcome change if the creature is called, summoned, or conjured?Very much so. A summoned creature isn't "real", in the sense of an actual individual creature physically transported to another plane. A called creature is real, and is subject to all the normal rules for real creatures.
Phrennzy 05-31-07, 10:39 AM	I am also pretty sure you can't use a summoned creature as your familiar (without DM say so). So an Air Elemental familiar would have to be Called. Then when it dies, it's corpse remains where it fell. Magic Items included.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-31-07, 11:02 AM	> The Monster Manual description of the Undead template specifically states > that Undead die immediately when they hit zero hit points. > > It makes no such concession for any of the other monsterous templates and > gives no specific details as to how to treat monsters that are unconscious or > disabled. It does for Constructs. They're also immediately destroyed upon reaching 0 HP.
mvincent 05-31-07, 01:26 PM	It was the belief of one of my groupmates that the above restriction on death and dying (that applied to Undead) held true for several other creature types; particularly the ones who have no organs and are immune to critical hits. (Elementals, Oozes, Constructs, etc.) We've found no basis for this assumption in our myriad of source books.As mentioned: this only holds true for undead, constructs and summoned creatures. What is the result when an Air Elemental familiar is reduced to fewer than zero hit points?It is dying (and will be dead at -10 unless it stabilizes). D&D doesn't address what happens to the bodies of elementals and outsiders, but many DM's rule that air and fire elementals evaporate, as do some outsiders (especially on their home plane, where the plane reclaims their energy).
Marcus Majarra 06-01-07, 12:34 PM	Any ongoing spells or effects created by the creature immediately end. Any items it has acquired in the meantime are immediately dropped. Where's this from?
mvincent 06-01-07, 01:27 PM	Where's this from?Per the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning): "When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire." From the Sage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070508a): "When a summoned creature goes away, so does everything it came with. If it’s holding or wearing something it didn’t appear with, that item drops to the ground in the creature’s space after it disappears."
Marcus Majarra 06-01-07, 09:45 PM	Many thanks.