Defending Weapon Property [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defending Weapon Property [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tos_shai_hulud
04-04-08, 11:03 PM Here is the scenario:

A 20th level wizard is carrying around a +5 Defending dagger. Obviously, he is just carrying it around so that he can boost his AC by 5 (as the bonus is untyped and stacks with all other bonuses). Now, here is the part that confuses me. What happens if this wizard then decides to cast Greater Magic Weapon on his dagger? It's enhancement bonus is gone (moved to AC), so the weapon was effectively a +0 weapon. Does the weapon become a +5 weapon once again?

Now, according to the Defending weapon, you can only assign where the bonus is going at the beginning of your turn, so you would not be able to eek out an extra +5 to AC, and at the beginning of your next round, the effect ended from the previous round. At this point, you have the weapon's normal +5 enhancement bonus back, plus the spell's +5 enhancement bonus overlapping (not stacking) with it. At the start of the round, you decide to allocate the +5 weapon enhancement over to AC. What is the weapon's enhancement bonus this round? Is it +5 because of the spell, or is it +0 because the spell's effects did not overlap, so when you transferred the bonus over to AC the second round, you lost the spell's bonus, as well?
Balseraph
04-04-08, 11:48 PM It is still a +5 Defending dagger it is just that the enhancement bonus applies to AC and not to hit and damage. At least that's how I see it.
I certainly wouldn't say that the enhancement bonus is gone or moved, simply that it applies differently to make sure that a player cannot double up in the way you describe.
tos_shai_hulud
04-05-08, 12:07 AM I understand your point, and I am not necessarily arguing with you, but I am asking that you consider a variant interpretation:

A weapon's enhancement bonus is a magical property. That magical property provides an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. Greater Magic Weapon does NOT create that property. Instead, it grants an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. If a wizard decides to cast Greater Magic Weapon on the weapon, the weapon's +5 enhancement provides +5 enhancement to attack and +5 enhancement to damage while the spell provides +5 enhancement to attack and +5 enhancement to damage. These obviously do not stack. However, when the wizard transfers the weapon's enhancement bonus property over to his AC, now the weapon's enhancement property provides +0 enhancement bonus to attack, +0 enhancement bonus to damage, and the spell still provides +5 to both. By the stacking rules, it would seem that the Greater Magic Weapon's ability would provide the bonus.

I may be mistaken in my understanding of how these enhancement bonuses work, though. By the way I see it, if this same wizard had a +1 Defending Dagger, then cast Greater Magic Weapon, he would have +5 on his attack and damage, yet he would only be able to transfer +1 to his AC (and still retain the +5 to attack and damage).

I can see it both ways, and I am not necessarily suggesting that my way is right. I am just wondering which interpretation the RAI supports more and why. (or perhaps the RAW if this specific case has been covered somewhere)
runestar
04-05-08, 12:44 AM Also note that as per the Q&A section at the back of the 3.0 PHB (apparently only for later versions), the sage clarifies that defending was meant to work just like combat expertise, and that you must actually be attacking with the weapon to benefit from defending (or at least, spend an attack action to simulate attacking, so you can still get the AC bonus against a foe 100 ft away even if there is no one around you to attack).

This will tie up a standard action for your wizard, leaving him with only swift/move actions. Thus, it is not quite as useful as you might imagine.:)
wrecan
04-05-08, 09:13 AM Let's look at this in order.

1) Wizard casts GMW. This "gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm)" +5. However, since the defending weapon already has a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, so the two bonuses overlap. (Overlapping is discussed in the "Rules of the Game" article "Does it Stack? (Part I)", which for some reason I cannot link right now.

Essentially it works as follows: Bob has an amulet that grants him a +1 enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus. He casts barkskin on himself. This grants a +2 enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus. These bonuses overlap. This means the higher bonus (the spell) operates and the lower (the amulet) is in reserve. Then the spell expires. The amulet kicks back in. In fact, its bonus was always there, but overshadowed by the spell.

2) Wizard invokes the defending dagger. This allows him "to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending)"

Now I can see this going two ways. The dagger, technically, has two overlapping enhancement bonuses to attack and damage. So I think ts_shai_hulud is correct. When the wizard invokes the defending dagger's ability, he transfers some of one of the enhancement bonuses to become and unnamed bonus to AC. The remaining bonuses then becomes the dominant bonus to attack and damage.

Now, I think when allocating some enhancement bonus to AC, the wizard needs to specify whether he is allocating the bonus from the spell or the dagger itself. That ay, if a dispel effect is cast on him, the DM can determine whether the dispel affects the dagger's bonuses to attack or AC.
mvincent
04-07-08, 12:48 PM Here is the scenario:

A 20th level wizard is carrying around a +5 Defending dagger. Obviously, he is just carrying it around so that he can boost his AC by 5Although some people allow this, it does not seem to be the writer's intent. from the 3.0 FAQ (if desired):
"Do you have to actively wield a weapon of defending to
use its power? Or could you hold a longsword of defending
in your left hand, not use it to attack (so you are not
actually using the two weapons) and still wield a sword in
your right hand without penalties? Or is the defending
bonus considered part of the normal parrying that happens
in the background?
Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise
feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t
use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off
hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the
penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t
actually attack with the weapon."

What happens if this wizard then decides to cast Greater Magic Weapon on his dagger? It's enhancement bonus is gone (moved to AC), so the weapon was effectively a +0 weapon. Does the weapon become a +5 weapon once again? No. The weapon technically only has only one enhancement bonus in operation. That bonus is still considered the weapon's enhancement bonus even when being used for defense.

Similarly, the weapon's own masterwork quality (i.e. another enhancement bonus) would not come into effect if it's entire enhancement bonus is transfered to defense.

However, if a DM wished to rule otherwise, I wouldn't find it particularly unbalancing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tos_shai_hulud 04-04-08, 11:03 PM	Here is the scenario: A 20th level wizard is carrying around a +5 Defending dagger. Obviously, he is just carrying it around so that he can boost his AC by 5 (as the bonus is untyped and stacks with all other bonuses). Now, here is the part that confuses me. What happens if this wizard then decides to cast Greater Magic Weapon on his dagger? It's enhancement bonus is gone (moved to AC), so the weapon was effectively a +0 weapon. Does the weapon become a +5 weapon once again? Now, according to the Defending weapon, you can only assign where the bonus is going at the beginning of your turn, so you would not be able to eek out an extra +5 to AC, and at the beginning of your next round, the effect ended from the previous round. At this point, you have the weapon's normal +5 enhancement bonus back, plus the spell's +5 enhancement bonus overlapping (not stacking) with it. At the start of the round, you decide to allocate the +5 weapon enhancement over to AC. What is the weapon's enhancement bonus this round? Is it +5 because of the spell, or is it +0 because the spell's effects did not overlap, so when you transferred the bonus over to AC the second round, you lost the spell's bonus, as well?
Balseraph 04-04-08, 11:48 PM	It is still a +5 Defending dagger it is just that the enhancement bonus applies to AC and not to hit and damage. At least that's how I see it. I certainly wouldn't say that the enhancement bonus is gone or moved, simply that it applies differently to make sure that a player cannot double up in the way you describe.
tos_shai_hulud 04-05-08, 12:07 AM	I understand your point, and I am not necessarily arguing with you, but I am asking that you consider a variant interpretation: A weapon's enhancement bonus is a magical property. That magical property provides an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. Greater Magic Weapon does NOT create that property. Instead, it grants an enhancement bonus to attack and damage. If a wizard decides to cast Greater Magic Weapon on the weapon, the weapon's +5 enhancement provides +5 enhancement to attack and +5 enhancement to damage while the spell provides +5 enhancement to attack and +5 enhancement to damage. These obviously do not stack. However, when the wizard transfers the weapon's enhancement bonus property over to his AC, now the weapon's enhancement property provides +0 enhancement bonus to attack, +0 enhancement bonus to damage, and the spell still provides +5 to both. By the stacking rules, it would seem that the Greater Magic Weapon's ability would provide the bonus. I may be mistaken in my understanding of how these enhancement bonuses work, though. By the way I see it, if this same wizard had a +1 Defending Dagger, then cast Greater Magic Weapon, he would have +5 on his attack and damage, yet he would only be able to transfer +1 to his AC (and still retain the +5 to attack and damage). I can see it both ways, and I am not necessarily suggesting that my way is right. I am just wondering which interpretation the RAI supports more and why. (or perhaps the RAW if this specific case has been covered somewhere)
runestar 04-05-08, 12:44 AM	Also note that as per the Q&A section at the back of the 3.0 PHB (apparently only for later versions), the sage clarifies that defending was meant to work just like combat expertise, and that you must actually be attacking with the weapon to benefit from defending (or at least, spend an attack action to simulate attacking, so you can still get the AC bonus against a foe 100 ft away even if there is no one around you to attack). This will tie up a standard action for your wizard, leaving him with only swift/move actions. Thus, it is not quite as useful as you might imagine.:)
wrecan 04-05-08, 09:13 AM	Let's look at this in order. 1) Wizard casts GMW. This "gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm)" +5. However, since the defending weapon already has a +5 enhancement bonus to attack and damage, so the two bonuses overlap. (Overlapping is discussed in the "Rules of the Game" article "Does it Stack? (Part I)", which for some reason I cannot link right now. Essentially it works as follows: Bob has an amulet that grants him a +1 enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus. He casts barkskin on himself. This grants a +2 enhancement bonus to his natural armor bonus. These bonuses overlap. This means the higher bonus (the spell) operates and the lower (the amulet) is in reserve. Then the spell expires. The amulet kicks back in. In fact, its bonus was always there, but overshadowed by the spell. 2) Wizard invokes the defending dagger. This allows him "to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#defending)" Now I can see this going two ways. The dagger, technically, has two overlapping enhancement bonuses to attack and damage. So I think ts_shai_hulud is correct. When the wizard invokes the defending dagger's ability, he transfers some of one of the enhancement bonuses to become and unnamed bonus to AC. The remaining bonuses then becomes the dominant bonus to attack and damage. Now, I think when allocating some enhancement bonus to AC, the wizard needs to specify whether he is allocating the bonus from the spell or the dagger itself. That ay, if a dispel effect is cast on him, the DM can determine whether the dispel affects the dagger's bonuses to attack or AC.
mvincent 04-07-08, 12:48 PM	Here is the scenario: A 20th level wizard is carrying around a +5 Defending dagger. Obviously, he is just carrying it around so that he can boost his AC by 5Although some people allow this, it does not seem to be the writer's intent. from the 3.0 FAQ (if desired): "Do you have to actively wield a weapon of defending to use its power? Or could you hold a longsword of defending in your left hand, not use it to attack (so you are not actually using the two weapons) and still wield a sword in your right hand without penalties? Or is the defending bonus considered part of the normal parrying that happens in the background? Using a weapon of defending works just like the Expertise feat. (You have to use an attack or full attack action.) You can’t use the weapon like a shield; if you hold the weapon in your off hand and claim an Armor Class bonus for it, you take all the penalties for fighting with two weapons, even if you don’t actually attack with the weapon." What happens if this wizard then decides to cast Greater Magic Weapon on his dagger? It's enhancement bonus is gone (moved to AC), so the weapon was effectively a +0 weapon. Does the weapon become a +5 weapon once again? No. The weapon technically only has only one enhancement bonus in operation. That bonus is still considered the weapon's enhancement bonus even when being used for defense. Similarly, the weapon's own masterwork quality (i.e. another enhancement bonus) would not come into effect if it's entire enhancement bonus is transfered to defense. However, if a DM wished to rule otherwise, I wouldn't find it particularly unbalancing.