Defensive Casting and the Melee Touch Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Defensive Casting and the Melee Touch Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DrTimecode
04-19-07, 02:22 AM Here's something that came up at our table last weekend:

One PC lies unconscious at the base of an attacking Greenvise. The party's cleric wants to cast a healing spell on the PC, but since there's still combat going on; the cleric decides to cast on the defensive.

The question is whether it's reasonable to cast on the defensive, but still make what is essentially a melee attack? It's not a question of the cleric's ability to touch the PC, but if the cleric is trying to avoid an attack of opportunity from the Greenvise while casting, it seems that he shouldn't be leaning in make that touch on the PC. If you fight on the defensive, you are not attacking, so why doesn't casting on the defensive work the same way?

For any other spell type, ranged or otherwise, I have no problem with the defensive casting, it’s just in this case, of a melee touch attack, it doesn't make sense.

Opinions?
tos_shai_hulud
04-19-07, 02:34 AM I am not quite sure what you mean by "...if you fight on the defensive, you are not attacking." This is wrong. You cannot fight defensively if you are not attacking during the round. Instead, you could take a full defense action, but you could not fight defensively. The only way to fight defensively is to make an attack.

Casting on the defensive indicates that during the casting of the spell, you are using concentration to allow yourself to focus on the battle at the same time as the casting of the spell. It has nothing to do with the melee touch to heal the character. Also, touching an object is not an attack on that object. The body of the character would be considered an object.

Not to mention, the melee touch to deliver the touch spell is not part of the casting of the spell, and can even be separated (i.e. cast a spell with a range of touch, make a move action up to a target, deliver the touch spell).

So, what exactly were you asking?
Leilond
04-19-07, 03:10 AM Defensive casting do not change nothing in your combat ability
Defensive casting has to do with the "casting part" of the spell and not with the "attack part"
You can "defensive cast" and then "attack defensively" and in that situation you have -4 to hit
Defensive cast prevento only AoO
DrTimecode
04-19-07, 03:24 AM I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case.

The cleric is in a threatened space, trying to cast his healing spell, while keeping from being attacked, and then leaning in to make his touch, specifically an unopposed melee touch attack (just because its healing doesn't make it work any differently than say a shocking grasp).

I understand how casting on the defensive gives the cleric the ability to concentrate on his spell, but it doesn't make sense that he then gets a free pass on reaching into a combat square to touch one of the combatents.
Leilond
04-19-07, 03:44 AM I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case.

The cleric is in a threatened space, trying to cast his healing spell, while keeping from being attacked, and then leaning in to make his touch, specifically an unopposed melee touch attack (just because its healing doesn't make it work any differently than say a shocking grasp).

I understand how casting on the defensive gives the cleric the ability to concentrate on his spell, but it doesn't make sense that he then gets a free pass on reaching into a combat square to touch one of the combatents.
Infact it doesn't because, as you can read on the touch spell description, the "touch" is "part of standard action you're using"
If you let someone "cast the spell, take a 5 foot step, then touch" your making something like "make a part of a standard action, make a 5 foot step, make another part of a standard action" and that isn't possible by the raw

"Cast and touch" is a single standard action and cannot be "divided".

You can "defensive cast" (that has nothing to do with attack defensively) and do not take AoO, but if you want touch in the same turn (no penalty to hit) you must attack immediately. If you want to move, you must "hold the charge" and use the touch the next round
tos_shai_hulud
04-19-07, 04:01 AM "Cast and touch" is a single standard action and cannot be "divided".

According to the RAW, cast and touch CAN be divided:

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Emphasis mine
Leilond
04-19-07, 04:02 AM Thanks pointing me a rule I completely missed
There always time to learn!

P.S.
But I've to think if I will house rule it or not...
Nom
04-19-07, 08:01 AM I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case.The only similarity is that they both have the word "defense" in their description. "Defense" isn't a keyword.

"Fighting defensively" trades attack to boost your AC (think of it as extra parrying).

"Casting defensively" means you're paying attention to the combat as well as your spell. More specifically, you're paying attention first to the combat and then to your spell. You won't give your enemies an extra opening, but you might botch the spell.

The two mechanics are not the same thing at all.

If anything, a cleric "casting defensively" is more able to engage in combat (eg touch spells), since he has been paying attention to the combat as well as his spell.
CharlieRock
04-19-07, 10:57 AM Where are the 'cast defensively' rules at? :confused:
tos_shai_hulud
04-19-07, 12:26 PM See the special section of Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm).
CharlieRock
04-20-07, 09:52 AM Ah, okay. Thanks. :)
starfire311
04-20-07, 11:34 AM I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case.

well, there is your problem, the 2 share absolutly nothing in common.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrTimecode 04-19-07, 02:22 AM	Here's something that came up at our table last weekend: One PC lies unconscious at the base of an attacking Greenvise. The party's cleric wants to cast a healing spell on the PC, but since there's still combat going on; the cleric decides to cast on the defensive. The question is whether it's reasonable to cast on the defensive, but still make what is essentially a melee attack? It's not a question of the cleric's ability to touch the PC, but if the cleric is trying to avoid an attack of opportunity from the Greenvise while casting, it seems that he shouldn't be leaning in make that touch on the PC. If you fight on the defensive, you are not attacking, so why doesn't casting on the defensive work the same way? For any other spell type, ranged or otherwise, I have no problem with the defensive casting, it’s just in this case, of a melee touch attack, it doesn't make sense. Opinions?
tos_shai_hulud 04-19-07, 02:34 AM	I am not quite sure what you mean by "...if you fight on the defensive, you are not attacking." This is wrong. You cannot fight defensively if you are not attacking during the round. Instead, you could take a full defense action, but you could not fight defensively. The only way to fight defensively is to make an attack. Casting on the defensive indicates that during the casting of the spell, you are using concentration to allow yourself to focus on the battle at the same time as the casting of the spell. It has nothing to do with the melee touch to heal the character. Also, touching an object is not an attack on that object. The body of the character would be considered an object. Not to mention, the melee touch to deliver the touch spell is not part of the casting of the spell, and can even be separated (i.e. cast a spell with a range of touch, make a move action up to a target, deliver the touch spell). So, what exactly were you asking?
Leilond 04-19-07, 03:10 AM	Defensive casting do not change nothing in your combat ability Defensive casting has to do with the "casting part" of the spell and not with the "attack part" You can "defensive cast" and then "attack defensively" and in that situation you have -4 to hit Defensive cast prevento only AoO
DrTimecode 04-19-07, 03:24 AM	I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case. The cleric is in a threatened space, trying to cast his healing spell, while keeping from being attacked, and then leaning in to make his touch, specifically an unopposed melee touch attack (just because its healing doesn't make it work any differently than say a shocking grasp). I understand how casting on the defensive gives the cleric the ability to concentrate on his spell, but it doesn't make sense that he then gets a free pass on reaching into a combat square to touch one of the combatents.
Leilond 04-19-07, 03:44 AM	I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case. The cleric is in a threatened space, trying to cast his healing spell, while keeping from being attacked, and then leaning in to make his touch, specifically an unopposed melee touch attack (just because its healing doesn't make it work any differently than say a shocking grasp). I understand how casting on the defensive gives the cleric the ability to concentrate on his spell, but it doesn't make sense that he then gets a free pass on reaching into a combat square to touch one of the combatents. Infact it doesn't because, as you can read on the touch spell description, the "touch" is "part of standard action you're using" If you let someone "cast the spell, take a 5 foot step, then touch" your making something like "make a part of a standard action, make a 5 foot step, make another part of a standard action" and that isn't possible by the raw "Cast and touch" is a single standard action and cannot be "divided". You can "defensive cast" (that has nothing to do with attack defensively) and do not take AoO, but if you want touch in the same turn (no penalty to hit) you must attack immediately. If you want to move, you must "hold the charge" and use the touch the next round
tos_shai_hulud 04-19-07, 04:01 AM	"Cast and touch" is a single standard action and cannot be "divided". According to the RAW, cast and touch CAN be divided: Touch Spells in Combat Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Emphasis mine
Leilond 04-19-07, 04:02 AM	Thanks pointing me a rule I completely missed There always time to learn! P.S. But I've to think if I will house rule it or not...
Nom 04-19-07, 08:01 AM	I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case.The only similarity is that they both have the word "defense" in their description. "Defense" isn't a keyword. "Fighting defensively" trades attack to boost your AC (think of it as extra parrying). "Casting defensively" means you're paying attention to the combat as well as your spell. More specifically, you're paying attention first to the combat and then to your spell. You won't give your enemies an extra opening, but you might botch the spell. The two mechanics are not the same thing at all. If anything, a cleric "casting defensively" is more able to engage in combat (eg touch spells), since he has been paying attention to the combat as well as his spell.
CharlieRock 04-19-07, 10:57 AM	Where are the 'cast defensively' rules at? :confused:
tos_shai_hulud 04-19-07, 12:26 PM	See the special section of Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm).
CharlieRock 04-20-07, 09:52 AM	Ah, okay. Thanks. :)
starfire311 04-20-07, 11:34 AM	I guess I look at casting defensively like using total defense, at least in this case. well, there is your problem, the 2 share absolutly nothing in common.