Definition of "Fixed Range" ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Definition of "Fixed Range" ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Matthew77
06-01-07, 01:22 PM Anyone have a SRD or rulebook definition of "Fixed Range" they can point me towards?

Specifically the question is if a range of touch is considered "Fixed".

Since it doesn't change with caster level, I'm inclined to say it is, but that gives persistant spell more options.
Murrdox
06-01-07, 02:14 PM Here are the defined "Ranges" in the SRD:

Personal: The spell affects only you.
Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.
Medium: The spell reaches as far as 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level.
Long: The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level.
Unlimited: The spell reaches anywhere on the same plane of existence.
Range Expressed in Feet: Some spells have no standard range category, just a range expressed in feet.

Basically if a spell's range is "Range Expressed in Feet" as written above, it is a fixed range spell.

Now, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, since you haven't talked about what spell you're looking at, other then you're looking into "Persistent Spell".

I cannot think of any Ranged Touch spells which have a fixed range, off the top of my head. All spells that involve a Ranged Touch Attack are going to have a range of Long, Medium, or Close as expressed above. If you have a certain spell in mind, maybe I can help more.

A spell with a "fixed" range is going to be a spell like "Detect Magic" below. It will simply express the range in feet, with no variable whatsoever.

Detect Magic
Divination
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Matthew77
06-01-07, 02:41 PM Basically if a spell's range is "Range Expressed in Feet" as written above, it is a fixed range spell.

I'd be very grateful for a rules citation that confirmed this.

A specific spell: Bull's Strength.
it has range: Touch.

Touch is a fixed range. It doesn't vary by caster level like Close, Medium and Long ranges do. There is no variable whatsoever.

What makes a range of 60feet more "fixed" than a range of touch ?

If there is a game definition of "Fixed" rather than just trying to translate the english word into game mechanics, that would be greatly helpful.
OGS-Remix
06-01-07, 03:17 PM I could not find any FAQ or rulings that Touch range does not count as a "Fixed Range" spell. However, here is my interpretation:

The actual distance a touch spell could be delivered at varies based on the caster's melee reach. It is possible to have a touch spell delivered at 5 ft, 10 ft or further away. Therefore the effective "range" on the spell is variable and it is not fixed.

In the case of Detect Magic as Murrdox posted, the Range is always 60 ft.

When you can say the base range is always something, then the range is fixed. In the case of Touch spells, since it can change, they do not qualify for Persistent Spell.

Basically if you can convince your DM to accept persistent touch spells more power to you. There's no general consensus and even if there was, your DM always has final say.
Murrdox
06-01-07, 03:40 PM PERSISTENT SPELL - A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Well, I think you've caught Wizards in a bit of a definition loophole. They use language in the "Persistent Spell" feat which is not clearly defined in the rules... mainly the "fixed range" component.

We can analyze this from a few angles to find out what is meant, but I think in the end this is going to be up to DM interpretation, because there is no hard and fast definition of "fixed range". I believe the feat should have said instead "range expressed in feet" as is defined in the spell ranges I outlined above.

The feat gives four qualifiers for a spell that can be made persistent.

1) Personal
OR
2) Fixed Range
AND NOT
3) Instantanous
AND NOT
4) Discharged Spells

Personally, I believe that "fixed range" should mean what I outlined above - a spell with specific feet mentioned as the range.

I would argue that a Touch spell has in fact "NO RANGE" and therefor is not the same as a "Fixed Range" spell. Even a touch spell that is delivered with a familiar or some kind of special reach weapon still does not have a range. You simply used some kind of remote device to deliver a Touch spell.

By this definition, I don't think touch spells qualify for Persistent Spell. They do not have a range at all, and thus they are not 1) Personal, OR 2) Fixed Range.

But, let's say your DM says otherwise, and Touch spells ARE a fixed range. I'll be my own devil's advocate.

In that case, you have to find a Touch spell that is 3) Not Instantaneous and 4) Not discharged, in order for it to be able to be Persistent.

I can't think of any touch spells that meet that criteria. By definition almost - every touch spell is discharged when you touch something to cast the spell... I can't think of any touch spells which break this rule.

Spells like "Bull's Strength" have duration and aren't instantaneous... but the spell is still discharged when you cast it.
Matthew77
06-01-07, 03:54 PM Thanks for the help. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a glossary or something that defined "Fixed."

I think we'll handle it on a case by case basis.

I don't see any problem with a cleric persisting a bull's strength, its actually nice to let him help someone else in the party instead of it being a completely selfish ability.

There might be some range:Touch and duration:non-instaneous spells that should not be persistable though.

The "discharge" requirement of touch spells is not something I had considered, and might be worth investigating.
Kouk
06-01-07, 05:08 PM I don't see any problem with a cleric persisting a bull's strength, its actually nice to let him help someone else in the party instead of it being a completely selfish ability.

I am not sure how Bull's Strength would not be of use to other party members. You already can cast it on another person if you walk up and touch him, or you could use the Reach Metamagic if you wanted to do it at a range. You can already Extend it.

No matter which way you end up ruling on Persistent Spell, Bull's Strength will be just as useful to any other character as it is to the caster.
weasel0
06-01-07, 05:42 PM Meta-magic: Reach Spell. Any touch spell becomes a Ray of 30' range. 2 spell lv increase.

** was beat to it
Matthew77
06-01-07, 08:13 PM No matter which way you end up ruling on Persistent Spell, Bull's Strength will be just as useful to any other character as it is to the caster.

My idea was that if you can only persist personal spells, then it is a completely selfish feat.

But if there were some helpful touch range buff spells that could be persisted, other party members could benefit from the feat as well.
Merestil Haye
06-01-07, 08:53 PM Thanks for the help. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a glossary or something that defined "Fixed."

I think we'll handle it on a case by case basis.

I don't see any problem with a cleric persisting a bull's strength, its actually nice to let him help someone else in the party instead of it being a completely selfish ability.

There might be some range:Touch and duration:non-instaneous spells that should not be persistable though.

The "discharge" requirement of touch spells is not something I had considered, and might be worth investigating.The only comment you will find in Wizards documentation is in the 3.0 Main FAQ.Would spells that have touch range, such as spell resistance, be considered to have a fixed range, and therefore be usable with the Persistent Spell feat?

No. Range touch is not “fixed” for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat. The spell must affect the caster’s person (personal range) or have some effect that radiates from the caster’s person (a fixed range, expressed in feet).
Andrew
06-01-07, 09:04 PM There are plenty of spells that can be persisted that are not all selfish without vaguing up what's allowed with touch spells. Mass lesser vigor, for example, can give fast healing to the entire party, or even the basics like Bless or Prayer that help the whole group.
Marcus Majarra
06-01-07, 09:55 PM Touch is a fixed range. It doesn't vary by caster level like Close, Medium and Long ranges do. There is no variable whatsoever.

This would be wrong. The range of a touch spell varies by the caster's reach, which itself is variable. Personal spells and spells with ranges expressed in feet never vary, regardless of circumstances.
Matthew77
06-02-07, 11:51 AM There are plenty of spells that can be persisted that are not all selfish without vaguing up what's allowed with touch spells. Mass lesser vigor, for example, can give fast healing to the entire party, or even the basics like Bless or Prayer that help the whole group.

Wow. We extend the vigor spells all the time, but I hadn't even considered persisting "Mass lesser vigor". Thanks for the idea!

This would be wrong. The range of a touch spell varies by the caster's reach, which itself is variable. Personal spells and spells with ranges expressed in feet never vary, regardless of circumstances.

This is a good argument. My only thought is that you might be able to extend this reasoning to spells like detect magic. A Huge caster with a 60' range spell can just lean forward and effect a farther distance than a Medium caster.

Say they each had to keep their back heel touching a wall. The huge caster's 60' spell will end farther away from the wall than the medium caster's would.

Between this argument and the discharging requirement of touch spells, I'm satisfied that I can fairly apply the restrictions on persistent spell.
Marcus Majarra
06-02-07, 01:15 PM You're making a false correlation between a larger creature occupying a larger space and the spell's range. Detect magic will never work beyond 60 feet off a creature's space. How a creature is positioned has no relevance to the spell's range. This is true regardless of any kind of range the spell might have. Imagine the same situation you presented with a spell vith a variable range, but for casters of identical CLs.
Andrew
06-02-07, 06:03 PM Wow. We extend the vigor spells all the time, but I hadn't even considered persisting "Mass lesser vigor". Thanks for the idea!
The main FAQ can be credited with that, but it also has a less favorable interpretation for the extended vigors that I don't really follow the reasoning on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Matthew77 06-01-07, 01:22 PM	Anyone have a SRD or rulebook definition of "Fixed Range" they can point me towards? Specifically the question is if a range of touch is considered "Fixed". Since it doesn't change with caster level, I'm inclined to say it is, but that gives persistant spell more options.
Murrdox 06-01-07, 02:14 PM	Here are the defined "Ranges" in the SRD: Personal: The spell affects only you. Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels. Medium: The spell reaches as far as 100 feet + 10 feet per caster level. Long: The spell reaches as far as 400 feet + 40 feet per caster level. Unlimited: The spell reaches anywhere on the same plane of existence. Range Expressed in Feet: Some spells have no standard range category, just a range expressed in feet. Basically if a spell's range is "Range Expressed in Feet" as written above, it is a fixed range spell. Now, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, since you haven't talked about what spell you're looking at, other then you're looking into "Persistent Spell". I cannot think of any Ranged Touch spells which have a fixed range, off the top of my head. All spells that involve a Ranged Touch Attack are going to have a range of Long, Medium, or Close as expressed above. If you have a certain spell in mind, maybe I can help more. A spell with a "fixed" range is going to be a spell like "Detect Magic" below. It will simply express the range in feet, with no variable whatsoever. Detect Magic Divination Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Drd 0, Sor/Wiz 0 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 60 ft. Area: Cone-shaped emanation Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No
Matthew77 06-01-07, 02:41 PM	Basically if a spell's range is "Range Expressed in Feet" as written above, it is a fixed range spell. I'd be very grateful for a rules citation that confirmed this. A specific spell: Bull's Strength. it has range: Touch. Touch is a fixed range. It doesn't vary by caster level like Close, Medium and Long ranges do. There is no variable whatsoever. What makes a range of 60feet more "fixed" than a range of touch ? If there is a game definition of "Fixed" rather than just trying to translate the english word into game mechanics, that would be greatly helpful.
OGS-Remix 06-01-07, 03:17 PM	I could not find any FAQ or rulings that Touch range does not count as a "Fixed Range" spell. However, here is my interpretation: The actual distance a touch spell could be delivered at varies based on the caster's melee reach. It is possible to have a touch spell delivered at 5 ft, 10 ft or further away. Therefore the effective "range" on the spell is variable and it is not fixed. In the case of Detect Magic as Murrdox posted, the Range is always 60 ft. When you can say the base range is always something, then the range is fixed. In the case of Touch spells, since it can change, they do not qualify for Persistent Spell. Basically if you can convince your DM to accept persistent touch spells more power to you. There's no general consensus and even if there was, your DM always has final say.
Murrdox 06-01-07, 03:40 PM	PERSISTENT SPELL - A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. You need not concentrate on spells such as detect magic or detect thoughts to be aware of the mere presence of absence of the things detected, but you must still concentrate to gain additional information as normal. Concentration on such a spell is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent spell uses up a spell slot six levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Well, I think you've caught Wizards in a bit of a definition loophole. They use language in the "Persistent Spell" feat which is not clearly defined in the rules... mainly the "fixed range" component. We can analyze this from a few angles to find out what is meant, but I think in the end this is going to be up to DM interpretation, because there is no hard and fast definition of "fixed range". I believe the feat should have said instead "range expressed in feet" as is defined in the spell ranges I outlined above. The feat gives four qualifiers for a spell that can be made persistent. 1) Personal OR 2) Fixed Range AND NOT 3) Instantanous AND NOT 4) Discharged Spells Personally, I believe that "fixed range" should mean what I outlined above - a spell with specific feet mentioned as the range. I would argue that a Touch spell has in fact "NO RANGE" and therefor is not the same as a "Fixed Range" spell. Even a touch spell that is delivered with a familiar or some kind of special reach weapon still does not have a range. You simply used some kind of remote device to deliver a Touch spell. By this definition, I don't think touch spells qualify for Persistent Spell. They do not have a range at all, and thus they are not 1) Personal, OR 2) Fixed Range. But, let's say your DM says otherwise, and Touch spells ARE a fixed range. I'll be my own devil's advocate. In that case, you have to find a Touch spell that is 3) Not Instantaneous and 4) Not discharged, in order for it to be able to be Persistent. I can't think of any touch spells that meet that criteria. By definition almost - every touch spell is discharged when you touch something to cast the spell... I can't think of any touch spells which break this rule. Spells like "Bull's Strength" have duration and aren't instantaneous... but the spell is still discharged when you cast it.
Matthew77 06-01-07, 03:54 PM	Thanks for the help. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a glossary or something that defined "Fixed." I think we'll handle it on a case by case basis. I don't see any problem with a cleric persisting a bull's strength, its actually nice to let him help someone else in the party instead of it being a completely selfish ability. There might be some range:Touch and duration:non-instaneous spells that should not be persistable though. The "discharge" requirement of touch spells is not something I had considered, and might be worth investigating.
Kouk 06-01-07, 05:08 PM	I don't see any problem with a cleric persisting a bull's strength, its actually nice to let him help someone else in the party instead of it being a completely selfish ability. I am not sure how Bull's Strength would not be of use to other party members. You already can cast it on another person if you walk up and touch him, or you could use the Reach Metamagic if you wanted to do it at a range. You can already Extend it. No matter which way you end up ruling on Persistent Spell, Bull's Strength will be just as useful to any other character as it is to the caster.
weasel0 06-01-07, 05:42 PM	Meta-magic: Reach Spell. Any touch spell becomes a Ray of 30' range. 2 spell lv increase. ** was beat to it
Matthew77 06-01-07, 08:13 PM	No matter which way you end up ruling on Persistent Spell, Bull's Strength will be just as useful to any other character as it is to the caster. My idea was that if you can only persist personal spells, then it is a completely selfish feat. But if there were some helpful touch range buff spells that could be persisted, other party members could benefit from the feat as well.
Merestil Haye 06-01-07, 08:53 PM	Thanks for the help. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a glossary or something that defined "Fixed." I think we'll handle it on a case by case basis. I don't see any problem with a cleric persisting a bull's strength, its actually nice to let him help someone else in the party instead of it being a completely selfish ability. There might be some range:Touch and duration:non-instaneous spells that should not be persistable though. The "discharge" requirement of touch spells is not something I had considered, and might be worth investigating.The only comment you will find in Wizards documentation is in the 3.0 Main FAQ.Would spells that have touch range, such as spell resistance, be considered to have a fixed range, and therefore be usable with the Persistent Spell feat? No. Range touch is not “fixed” for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat. The spell must affect the caster’s person (personal range) or have some effect that radiates from the caster’s person (a fixed range, expressed in feet).
Andrew 06-01-07, 09:04 PM	There are plenty of spells that can be persisted that are not all selfish without vaguing up what's allowed with touch spells. Mass lesser vigor, for example, can give fast healing to the entire party, or even the basics like Bless or Prayer that help the whole group.
Marcus Majarra 06-01-07, 09:55 PM	Touch is a fixed range. It doesn't vary by caster level like Close, Medium and Long ranges do. There is no variable whatsoever. This would be wrong. The range of a touch spell varies by the caster's reach, which itself is variable. Personal spells and spells with ranges expressed in feet never vary, regardless of circumstances.
Matthew77 06-02-07, 11:51 AM	There are plenty of spells that can be persisted that are not all selfish without vaguing up what's allowed with touch spells. Mass lesser vigor, for example, can give fast healing to the entire party, or even the basics like Bless or Prayer that help the whole group. Wow. We extend the vigor spells all the time, but I hadn't even considered persisting "Mass lesser vigor". Thanks for the idea! This would be wrong. The range of a touch spell varies by the caster's reach, which itself is variable. Personal spells and spells with ranges expressed in feet never vary, regardless of circumstances. This is a good argument. My only thought is that you might be able to extend this reasoning to spells like detect magic. A Huge caster with a 60' range spell can just lean forward and effect a farther distance than a Medium caster. Say they each had to keep their back heel touching a wall. The huge caster's 60' spell will end farther away from the wall than the medium caster's would. Between this argument and the discharging requirement of touch spells, I'm satisfied that I can fairly apply the restrictions on persistent spell.
Marcus Majarra 06-02-07, 01:15 PM	You're making a false correlation between a larger creature occupying a larger space and the spell's range. Detect magic will never work beyond 60 feet off a creature's space. How a creature is positioned has no relevance to the spell's range. This is true regardless of any kind of range the spell might have. Imagine the same situation you presented with a spell vith a variable range, but for casters of identical CLs.
Andrew 06-02-07, 06:03 PM	Wow. We extend the vigor spells all the time, but I hadn't even considered persisting "Mass lesser vigor". Thanks for the idea! The main FAQ can be credited with that, but it also has a less favorable interpretation for the extended vigors that I don't really follow the reasoning on.