Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nrg_89 05-25-07, 03:00 PM	How do I calculate the saving throw from a spell when it's used from a wand?
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 03:04 PM	How do I calculate the saving throw from a spell when it's used from a wand? Typically, it will be the same as the crafter's. :dragon: ****
Murrdox 05-25-07, 03:19 PM	Saving Throw from Wand = DC is 10 + the level of the spell + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. So a Wand of Fireball is always going to be a DC of 14. (10 + level 3 spell, +1 from the +1 INT modifier for a 13 INT, which is the minimum needed to cast Fireball) The only way you can get it higher is to apply a Metamagic feat to increase the level of the spell in the wand. However, you won't see this too often with wands, since the maximum spell level is 4.
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 03:50 PM	Saving Throw from Wand = DC is 10 + the level of the spell + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. So a Wand of Fireball is always going to be a DC of 14. (10 + level 3 spell, +1 from the +1 INT modifier for a 13 INT, which is the minimum needed to cast Fireball).... This is not correct. Items listed in the DMG assume the bare minimum, but those created by PCs (or statted NPCs), are done so with their stats, caster level and so on. The only item that operates differently will be staves - which take on the users abilities. :dragon: ****
Murrdox 05-25-07, 05:00 PM	Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC So no, a crafter who makes a wand with an INT of 20 does not add +5 to the saving throw from his Wand of Fireball. He only adds +1, because that is the minimum stat needed to cast Fireball. As the rule states, staffs are the exception.
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 05:33 PM	So no, a crafter who makes a wand with an INT of 20 does not add +5 to the saving throw from his Wand of Fireball. He only adds +1, because that is the minimum stat needed to cast Fireball. As the rule states, staffs are the exception. You are reading/quoting how the DMGs basic items operate - look closely at the section you are pulling that quote from and you will see that it is obviously not in the created item section (which follows further down). Items created by PCs and NPCs will be done with different than the base stats. For instance, a wizard with an intelligence of 20 is not going to dumb himself down to create a scroll, wand or potion. His entire intelligence bonus is conveyed over to the item and counts towards the DC calculation of that particular item. :dragon: ****
Pentar 05-25-07, 05:39 PM	You are reading/quoting how the DMGs basic items operate - look closely at the section you are pulling that quote from and you will see that it is obviously not in the created item section (which follows further down). Items created by PCs and NPCs will be done with different than the base stats. For instance, a wizard with an intelligence of 20 is not going to dumb himself down to create a scroll, wand or potion. His entire intelligence bonus is conveyed over to the item and counts towards the DC calculation of that particular item. :dragon: **** I believe PenderGrass is correct. The rules stated by Murrdox apply only to generic items purchased or randomly found in monster loot tables (assuming the DM hasn't specially crafted the item). If a high level wizard creates a Scroll, the spells written on the scroll are written at his/her highest caster level, unless they specifically elect to make it a lower caster level (perhaps to save on XP/gold costs, for example) and the modifiers for saving throw DCs are based off their current attribute scores.
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 05:48 PM	Just another point, if you look at the item creation feats - you will see text such as: When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. Which also clearly indicates that items created by PCs (or other non-standard sources) are variable in power due to the creator's choices/level/abilities. :dragon: ****
Karui_Kage 05-25-07, 06:36 PM	Yes, the PC sets the caster level. This does mean he can set it lower, if he wants, to the bare minimum, in order to save money. He can set it at his current level, and if it's 20, that would be a +5, but it would cost more. Since the cost for wands is "375 x level of spell x level of caster". However, this says nothing about changing the save DC of the item, just the caster level. According to the DMG, Murrdox's argument is correct. "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect" (determined above) "+ the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast the spell." No where does it say that you can change the Save DC. I imagine this just is part of the mechanics of crafting, which is why casting the spell normally is always better than using it off of a wand.
Nom 05-25-07, 08:34 PM	Saving throws for items are fixed based on spell level: DMG pg 214 (source for the passage Karui Kage quoted). If you want a higher saving throw, you need to use Heighten Spell. This isn't a "default save", it's "the save", and is independent of the creator. The exception, explicitly called out in the above passage, is staves, which use the activator for both caster level (if better than the staff's) and save DC.
PenderGrass 05-25-07, 08:58 PM	Saving throws for items are fixed based on spell level: DMG pg 214 (source for the passage Karui Kage quoted). If you want a higher saving throw, you need to use Heighten Spell. This isn't a "default save", it's "the save", and is independent of the creator. The exception, explicitly called out in the above passage, is staves, which use the activator for both caster level (if better than the staff's) and save DC. Now, I don't allow craft magic item feats in my game (other than potions and scrolls) - so I am not overly familiar with it off-hand. But, it wouldn't surprise me to find that WotC has spell casters creating magic items where - despite having an intelligence of 20 - are limited to using only part of that energy in the creation process. I am not convinced of that moronic ruling being RAW just yet. Either way, I would allow a wand created by a powerful caster to be better than a wand that is created by some barely functional twit. :dragon: ****
Murrdox 05-26-07, 07:29 PM	Yes, as others have pointed out... You can set the CASTER LEVEL of any item you want. You can craft a Wand of Fireball with a caster level of 5, or a caster level of 10. However, since Caster Level does not factor into the formula to determine the saving throw of the spell, this doesn't matter when it comes to saving throws. The reason (in my mind) behind this is so that the spells that a wizard casts are always more powerful and difficult to resist than those which are imbued into items. Essentially this means that YOU cast spells better than any crappy little wand can. Otherwise, there would be every incentive for a wizard to simply purchase or craft magical items and use THOSE instead of casting spells for himself. The exception is staves, which in terms of Fantasy wizard stereotypes, are always viewed as enhancing a wizard's power, and the power of the staff becomes more powerful when a powerful wizard wields it.
PenderGrass 05-27-07, 04:42 AM	Yes, as others have pointed out... You can set the CASTER LEVEL of any item you want. You can craft a Wand of Fireball with a caster level of 5, or a caster level of 10. However, since Caster Level does not factor into the formula to determine the saving throw of the spell, this doesn't matter when it comes to saving throws. As I said, it seems I was in error. The reason (in my mind) behind this is so that the spells that a wizard casts are always more powerful and difficult to resist than those which are imbued into items. Essentially this means that YOU cast spells better than any crappy little wand can. It also means that a village idiot can create a lightning bolt scroll that is just as powerful as your super-intelligent player character wizard. Or, in other words, your super-intelligent wizard can't build a better scroll than some village schmuck wizard. This, to me, seems moronic and since the games I have run for years and years ran the allowable crafted items (i.e., scrolls and potions) in the way I initially thought, we will stick with that method. I will be sure to add it to the houserule list. Otherwise, there would be every incentive for a wizard to simply purchase or craft magical items and use THOSE instead of casting spells for himself. Who's to say that any item on the market is made by anyone other than a barely capable idiot? After all, most ultra-intelligent wizards will rarely part with something they built that they know is more powerful than the basic model. Also, most average wizard NPCs in most worlds are not gonna have better stats than the PCs. But, yes, I can see where some DMs could be intimidated by this becoming a factor - but since the purchase of items is totally under the eye of the DM, it seems more of a non-issue. I can also see where this can be a nice control set for things like RPGA. But none of these are reason enough to change how we have been doing things for years and years. :dragon: ****
Karui_Kage 05-27-07, 05:04 AM	It also means that a village idiot can create a lightning bolt scroll that is just as powerful as your super-intelligent player character wizard. Or, in other words, your super-intelligent wizard can't build a better scroll than some village schmuck wizard. Sure, if the village idiot happens to also be a wizard, of at least 5th level, and possesses an int of 13. I don't know many villages where the idiot is like that though. This, to me, seems moronic and since the games I have run for years and years ran the allowable crafted items (i.e., scrolls and potions) in the way I initially thought, we will stick with that method. I will be sure to add it to the houserule list. Who's to say that any item on the market is made by anyone other than a barely capable idiot? You keep saying this. As I'm sure you can see from the wizard's own spell and craft requirements, no idiot could craft this. After all, most ultra-intelligent wizards will rarely part with something they built that they know is more powerful than the basic model. Why do you think most ultra-intelligent wizards prefer staves? Because they can use their own Int bonus for it. Wands and scrolls were created so that they could use the spell quickly, efficiently, and without having to prepare it. They are not meant to replace their spells, just supplement them. Also, most average wizard NPCs in most worlds are not gonna have better stats than the PCs. But, yes, I can see where some DMs could be intimidated by this becoming a factor - but since the purchase of items is totally under the eye of the DM, it seems more of a non-issue. I can also see where this can be a nice control set for things like RPGA. But none of these are reason enough to change how we have been doing things for years and years. Then don't change them, no one's making you. :) Saying that 'any idiot' can do this though is just wrong, as you still need to be a wizard with considerable intelligence. If a wizard wants to use an int bonus with spells, he either prepares them and casts them, or uses his staff. Wands and scrolls are meant to be accessible not just to the creator, but to everyone. A rogue with a low int could still use magic device on a wand with a higher Int to its Save DC, and a wizard with higher Int would get the same DC. A wand or a scroll is meant to be weaker than what the mage himself could cast, it's reflected in its cheap cost. If it used the mage's own bonus, it would be just as good as any of his normal spells, and should cost more appropriately. :dragon: **** Response in bold.
Murrdox 05-27-07, 02:27 PM	This, to me, seems moronic and since the games I have run for years and years ran the allowable crafted items (i.e., scrolls and potions) in the way I initially thought, we will stick with that method. I will be sure to add it to the houserule list. Who's to say that any item on the market is made by anyone other than a barely capable idiot? Well, this would allow for some dangerous magical items. You should house-rule (at least in my opinion) a pretty big multiplier for items which are made where you factor in a higher saving throw. Otherwise, if I were a low level wizard, I'd buy a Wand of Disintegrate from a very high-powered Wizard, so that the saving throw to resist it was ridiculously high. As a safer alternative, you could just extend the rule for staves to other magical items. Namely, you could say that no matter what kind of item is being used, the character always uses his own relevant stat score to determine the saving throw. This way a wand is always more powerful in the hands of a powerful wizard. You might consider adding a multiplier to the cost of an item that is made in this way, and then also allow them to use the normal method of crafting. That way, players and NPCs could still make cheap alternatives. Afterall, who needs a Wand of Magic Missile with a high saving throw?
PenderGrass 05-28-07, 02:50 AM	.... Comparatively speaking, a wizard with 20+ intelligence and a wizard with a 13 intelligence is like comparing a Mozart-level composer with a person that can barely play a single instrument. Otherwise, if I were a low level wizard, I'd buy a Wand of Disintegrate from a very high-powered Wizard, so that the saving throw to resist it was ridiculously high. I would say, if I were to allow a low-level wizard to be able to even think about purchasing such an item - with a high save DC or not - I would have far more problems than just something as simple as a saving throw DC. :dragon: ****
Nom 05-28-07, 03:10 AM	The reason for the rule is simple: it removes a variable. You don't need to know who made the wand of fireball. If it's a wand of fireball, it has DC 15 (and a base price of 2250 * caster level). And since caster level is typically the minimum, you don't need to specify that either for common items. If you allow variable DC, then you need to be able to shift the price to account for this. Just as a 9th level wizard pays more if he crafts his wand of fireball at CL 9 rather than CL 5, he should pay more if he crafts it at DC 17 rather than DC 15. (Actually, he can do this already via Heighten Spell)
calronmoonflower 05-28-07, 03:20 AM	If the saving throw for magic items differed depending on the creator it would affect the market price. That would greatly complicate the prices for magic items. If you really want to increase the DC of a magic item there are two solutions under the Rules As Written. 1. Take the Heighten Spell feat and apply it when making the items. The drawback is an increase in price, but it can be used with regular spellcasting. 2. The Enhance Item feat from page 114 of the Epic Level Handbook. Despite the book it is in it is not an epic feat.
Kouk 05-28-07, 05:13 AM	Yes, as others have pointed out... You can set the CASTER LEVEL of any item you want. You can craft a Wand of Fireball with a caster level of 5, or a caster level of 10. However, since Caster Level does not factor into the formula to determine the saving throw of the spell, this doesn't matter when it comes to saving throws. The reason (in my mind) behind this is so that the spells that a wizard casts are always more powerful and difficult to resist than those which are imbued into items. Essentially this means that YOU cast spells better than any crappy little wand can. Otherwise, there would be every incentive for a wizard to simply purchase or craft magical items and use THOSE instead of casting spells for himself. The exception is staves, which in terms of Fantasy wizard stereotypes, are always viewed as enhancing a wizard's power, and the power of the staff becomes more powerful when a powerful wizard wields it. Yep.