Disarm, Trip and the mighty spiked chain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Disarm, Trip and the mighty spiked chain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkNick
04-04-07, 04:45 PM Just been looking up the rules for trip and disarm and was wondering if I could run this past you guys and see if there are any flaws in my understanding. Sorry, lots of questions, just getting my head around things.

If you had a fighter that did not have the disarm feat using a spiked chain they would get a +2 bonus in the attempt (from using a chain) and +4 for it being a two handed weapon - giving a grand total of +6 on the opposed attack role. Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??)

I have a question about trip too - if you have improved trip, on tripping your opponent you get an immediate second attack. For that second attack is the target treated as prone (as they have been tripped) or does the second attack come in before they are actually prone? If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack?

So you can get a fighter with spiked chain and improved trip - some one moves into the fighters threat range trying to attack - the fighter responds with a trip attack and succeeds - foe goes down. Fighter gets a free second attack and makes a disarm attempt (+6 (+10 with improved disarm) vs the prone persons -4 on their attempt) disarms the foe. The foe probably has one standard action left - stand up or pick up their weapon? - they choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?). Fighters turn comes up and they trip the foe again, and get a free attack to waste the foe some.... can you 5foot steep while prone??

Actually spiked chain would be really useful for a fighter with whirlwind attack too...:D Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack?
Marcus Majarra
04-04-07, 05:19 PM 1) If your opponent cannot reach you when you make a disarm attempt, then no attack of opportunity it provoked. And no, your opponent cannot sunder the chain as an attack of opportunity. The best your opponent can hope for is that you do not have Improved Disarm and that you do not beat the opposed check. At this point, he gets to attempt to disarm you at no risk to himself.

2) The attack from Improved Trip comes after you've tripped your opponent, so you get the usual +4 bonus on melee attack rolls against prone opponents. If you trip as an attack of opportunity and you have Improved Trip, you get to make your free attack if you successfully trip your opponent, and the free attack does not count against your limit of attacks of opportunity per round.

3) Your fighter example was correct. A trip/disarm specialist fighter is not easy to get close to (unless you're really big, strong, and can do well without manufactured weapons).

4) You can trip and disarm as part of your whirlwind attack, but you will not be allowed any extra attacks beyond that (such as the one from Improved Trip).
Inigo Carmine
04-04-07, 05:24 PM If you had a fighter that did not have the disarm feat using a spiked chain they would get a +2 bonus in the attempt (from using a chain) and +4 for it being a two handed weapon - giving a grand total of +6 on the opposed attack role.
In addition to all other appropriate bonuses and penalties, yes.

Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??)

If you're not in anyone's threatened area, you can do whatever you like without provoking an AoO. No, they don't get a free sunder attempt against the chain.

I have a question about trip too - if you have improved trip, on tripping your opponent you get an immediate second attack. For that second attack is the target treated as prone (as they have been tripped) or does the second attack come in before they are actually prone?
They are prone.
If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack?
You get the extra attack.

So you can get a fighter with spiked chain and improved trip - some one moves into the fighters threat range trying to attack - the fighter responds with a trip attack and succeeds - foe goes down. Fighter gets a free second attack and makes a disarm attempt (+6 (+10 with improved disarm) vs the prone persons -4 on their attempt) disarms the foe. The foe probably has one standard action left - stand up or pick up their weapon? - they choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?).
Don't forget the +4 bonus for attacking a prone target in melee. Yes, being prone makes you very susceptible to being disarmed.

Yes, the fighter can take multiple AoOs on the foe; one for each action provoked. Note: The fighter needs to have available AoOs (ala combat reflexes and some dex), and movement only counts as a single AoO event no matter how many squares you pass through.

Fighters turn comes up and they trip the foe again, and get a free attack to waste the foe some.... can you 5foot steep while prone??
No. As a move action though, you can crawl 5ft that provokes from anyone who threatens you at any point during the crawl.

Actually spiked chain would be really useful for a fighter with whirlwind attack too...:D Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack?
Yes, but keep in mind you cannot make the extra trip attempt for improved trip; the text of the whirlwind feat explicitly forbids such extra attacks.
tos_shai_hulud
04-04-07, 05:24 PM If you had a fighter that did not have the disarm feat using a spiked chain they would get a +2 bonus in the attempt (from using a chain) and +4 for it being a two handed weapon - giving a grand total of +6 on the opposed attack role. Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??)

If they are not within reach, they cannot make an attack of opportunity:

An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

Since you are making a disarm attempt from a non-threatened square, you provoke no attacks of opportunity when attempting a 10' disarm against a creature with a 5' reach.

I have a question about trip too - if you have improved trip, on tripping your opponent you get an immediate second attack. For that second attack is the target treated as prone (as they have been tripped) or does the second attack come in before they are actually prone?

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Since you gain the extra attack only if you trip the opponent, they are tripped when your extra attack goes through, and therefore prone.

If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack?

Since it states that you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt, I would say yes, you still get the extra attack.

So you can get a fighter with spiked chain and improved trip - some one moves into the fighters threat range trying to attack - the fighter responds with a trip attack and succeeds - foe goes down. Fighter gets a free second attack and makes a disarm attempt (+6 (+10 with improved disarm) vs the prone persons -4 on their attempt) disarms the foe. The foe probably has one standard action left - stand up or pick up their weapon? - they choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?). Fighters turn comes up and they trip the foe again, and get a free attack to waste the foe some.... can you 5foot steep while prone??

Yes to everything except the 5 foot step while prone. While prone, you can crawl for an entire action a distance of 5 feet, or you could stand up.

Actually spiked chain would be really useful for a fighter with whirlwind attack too...:D Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack?

Yes, since whirlwind attack allows you to make a melee attack, and trip, disarm, and sunder are all forms of melee attack, you can do any of them.
tos_shai_hulud
04-04-07, 05:26 PM What Inigo Carmine said.
DarkNick
04-04-07, 06:27 PM Excellent, cheers heaps guys. Now I can sleep at night.

Inigo is a great name - like that swordsman from " the Princess Bride".

"Hello, I am Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die."

Oh, one more thought. If someone tried to trip you and you got the upper hand in the rolls and managed to trip them - would you then get your extra attack from improved trip? I think you would.
rmccowen
04-10-07, 04:55 PM Oh, one more thought. If someone tried to trip you and you got the upper hand in the rolls and managed to trip them - would you then get your extra attack from improved trip? I think you would.

Here's the relevant text of the Improved Trip feat:
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

And here's a quote from the section on making trip attacks:
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier)... If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

I would say no, Improved Trip doesn't grant you an attack if you successfully trip an opponent in reaction to his failed trip attempt. You can't make an attack "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt", because you didn't make an attack.
Leilond
04-11-07, 03:20 AM I agree with you
Dazzer
04-11-07, 03:35 AM Actually, the disarm attempt on the way down would have a larger bonus :D

+4 Two-handed, +2 spiked chain, +4 prone target, +4 improved disarm
(+14 total)

and, -4 penalty on attacker for being prone

However!! There is a counter to every awesome thing. If this spiked chain fighter ever encounters the following...his AoP never occurs (although on his round he's still brutal!)

Spring Attack!! I move into melee spring attacking the spiked chain dude, the 5ft move to the side keeping myself in melee after I attack as the last part of the movement of my spring attack. I have moved before, and after my attack, and have not gone above my move action speed. I do NOT draw AoP's from spiked chain dude.

So you can have a guy get into melee with the spiked chain guy really easily, once there it's tough to be sure, but with good opposed checks you'll be fine.

(shield ward, combat stability, ranks in balance, locked gauntlet, balance boots, boots of stability, being a dwarf...all awesome)

Go fighters!

P.S. I hate spiked chain, they should all burn in the fiery pits of hell...with the kytons...if you want one...fight 1000 kytons for it...then maybe...MAYBE I'll let you take the feat for proficiency as well as letting you have one!
Tony Vargas
04-11-07, 07:19 PM Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??)Technically, there's no AoO, because you're not in thier threatened area. However, allowing an AoO to sunder or disarm the chain would be pretty reasonable. If you consider allowing that, also consider allowing it vs a monster with reach making an untrained grapple attempt to provoke - picture a giant trying to snatch up a sword-wielding hero with his bare hands: it's not hard to picture him getting a sword-wound to the hand that spoils the attempt.

For that second attack is the target treated as prone Yes.

If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack?Yes.

choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?). Yes. Standing up is a sepparate opportunity from moving. Note that the victim is prone when he provokes, since he hasn't finished his 'stand up from prone' action yet, and suffers the penalties (though, being already prone, he at least can't be tripped again).

can you 5foot steep while prone?Probably not. While prone, you presumably have to Crawl - a form of movement that allows you to move 5' as a move action which provokes - ick!

Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack?Yes. Though, due to the wording of WWA attack and Improved Trip are somewhat at odds. WWA states that you can't gain extra attacks while using it. Improved Trip states that the follow-up attack comes "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." So, you could consider an Improved Trip (trip attempt + follow-up) to be effectively a single attack. Obviously, the safer (more restrictive) ruling is no follow-up attacks in the WWA.
tos_shai_hulud
04-11-07, 07:33 PM Here's the relevant text of the Improved Trip feat:

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

And here's a quote from the section on making trip attacks:

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier)... If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

I would say no, Improved Trip doesn't grant you an attack if you successfully trip an opponent in reaction to his failed trip attempt. You can't make an attack "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt", because you didn't make an attack.

Of course, you are putting the emphasis on the second part of that statement. But, it doesn't trigger when you make an attack. It triggers when you trip an opponent in melee combat. It doesn't say if your attack succeeds and you trip your opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack..., it says that if you trip your opponent in melee combat. The fact that it occurs as if you hadn't used an attack is immaterial. You get an attack from it.
Kirano
04-12-07, 06:57 PM If I'm getting all that was said, please imagine this...

4th-level fighter, medium humanoid (human)
Str 18/+4 Dex 12/+1 Con 14/+2 Int 13/+1 Wis 8/-1 Cha 8/-1
6 Feats (Human, lv1, fighter1, fighter2, lv3, fighter4)
Combat Expertise; Improved Trip; Improved Disarm; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain); Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain); Combat Reflexes

Base Attack Bonus +4, Strength +4, Weapon Focus +1, Materwork +1
Attack: Masterwork Spiked Chain +10 melee (2d4+6)

Trip +14: +10(melee) +4(improved trip)
Disarm +20: +10(melee) +4(improved disarm) +2(Spiked Chain) +4(2-handed weapon)

If Disarm is performed as the free attack granted by Improved Trip, then it's at +24. And he has 2 attacks of opportunity. This build is 28 point-buy.

Is that all good? And scary?
tos_shai_hulud
04-12-07, 07:05 PM Trip +14: +10(melee) +4(improved trip)
Disarm +20: +10(melee) +4(improved disarm) +2(Spiked Chain) +4(2-handed weapon)

Disarm is correct, as that is an attack roll versus the enemy's weapon, but Trip is a Strength check:

Trip +8: +4(str) +4(improved trip)
You don't get to add in base attack bonus. You might be able to add in Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) since I have seen Weapon Focus (Grapple), so it might work to give you an extra +1 on the trip attempt bringing it to +9, but I don't think it makes as much sense for Trip as it does for Grapple.
Septuris
07-28-07, 04:08 PM Disarm is correct, as that is an attack roll versus the enemy's weapon, but Trip is a Strength check:

Trip +8: +4(str) +4(improved trip)
You don't get to add in base attack bonus. You might be able to add in Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) since I have seen Weapon Focus (Grapple), so it might work to give you an extra +1 on the trip attempt bringing it to +9, but I don't think it makes as much sense for Trip as it does for Grapple.

Why wouldn't you add the base attack bonus? A melee touch attack is a normal attack, including BAB + STR or DEX + any enhancements if using a weapon, against the opponents touch AC. Therefore a trip attack would indeed be at +14, not +8.
Marcus Majarra
07-29-07, 10:20 PM Incorrect. The trip requires that you first make a melee touch attack (unarmed or with your weapon). This attack receives no bonus from Improved Trip. In the example above, it's made at +10. Once the melee touch succeeds, you need to make a Strength check, opposed by your opponent's Strength or Dexterity check (opponent's choce). Improved Trip grants you a +4 bonus on this check. As an ability check, it receives no help from your base attack bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkNick 04-04-07, 04:45 PM	Just been looking up the rules for trip and disarm and was wondering if I could run this past you guys and see if there are any flaws in my understanding. Sorry, lots of questions, just getting my head around things. If you had a fighter that did not have the disarm feat using a spiked chain they would get a +2 bonus in the attempt (from using a chain) and +4 for it being a two handed weapon - giving a grand total of +6 on the opposed attack role. Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??) I have a question about trip too - if you have improved trip, on tripping your opponent you get an immediate second attack. For that second attack is the target treated as prone (as they have been tripped) or does the second attack come in before they are actually prone? If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack? So you can get a fighter with spiked chain and improved trip - some one moves into the fighters threat range trying to attack - the fighter responds with a trip attack and succeeds - foe goes down. Fighter gets a free second attack and makes a disarm attempt (+6 (+10 with improved disarm) vs the prone persons -4 on their attempt) disarms the foe. The foe probably has one standard action left - stand up or pick up their weapon? - they choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?). Fighters turn comes up and they trip the foe again, and get a free attack to waste the foe some.... can you 5foot steep while prone?? Actually spiked chain would be really useful for a fighter with whirlwind attack too...:D Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack?
Marcus Majarra 04-04-07, 05:19 PM	1) If your opponent cannot reach you when you make a disarm attempt, then no attack of opportunity it provoked. And no, your opponent cannot sunder the chain as an attack of opportunity. The best your opponent can hope for is that you do not have Improved Disarm and that you do not beat the opposed check. At this point, he gets to attempt to disarm you at no risk to himself. 2) The attack from Improved Trip comes after you've tripped your opponent, so you get the usual +4 bonus on melee attack rolls against prone opponents. If you trip as an attack of opportunity and you have Improved Trip, you get to make your free attack if you successfully trip your opponent, and the free attack does not count against your limit of attacks of opportunity per round. 3) Your fighter example was correct. A trip/disarm specialist fighter is not easy to get close to (unless you're really big, strong, and can do well without manufactured weapons). 4) You can trip and disarm as part of your whirlwind attack, but you will not be allowed any extra attacks beyond that (such as the one from Improved Trip).
Inigo Carmine 04-04-07, 05:24 PM	If you had a fighter that did not have the disarm feat using a spiked chain they would get a +2 bonus in the attempt (from using a chain) and +4 for it being a two handed weapon - giving a grand total of +6 on the opposed attack role. In addition to all other appropriate bonuses and penalties, yes. Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??) If you're not in anyone's threatened area, you can do whatever you like without provoking an AoO. No, they don't get a free sunder attempt against the chain. I have a question about trip too - if you have improved trip, on tripping your opponent you get an immediate second attack. For that second attack is the target treated as prone (as they have been tripped) or does the second attack come in before they are actually prone? They are prone. If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack? You get the extra attack. So you can get a fighter with spiked chain and improved trip - some one moves into the fighters threat range trying to attack - the fighter responds with a trip attack and succeeds - foe goes down. Fighter gets a free second attack and makes a disarm attempt (+6 (+10 with improved disarm) vs the prone persons -4 on their attempt) disarms the foe. The foe probably has one standard action left - stand up or pick up their weapon? - they choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?). Don't forget the +4 bonus for attacking a prone target in melee. Yes, being prone makes you very susceptible to being disarmed. Yes, the fighter can take multiple AoOs on the foe; one for each action provoked. Note: The fighter needs to have available AoOs (ala combat reflexes and some dex), and movement only counts as a single AoO event no matter how many squares you pass through. Fighters turn comes up and they trip the foe again, and get a free attack to waste the foe some.... can you 5foot steep while prone?? No. As a move action though, you can crawl 5ft that provokes from anyone who threatens you at any point during the crawl. Actually spiked chain would be really useful for a fighter with whirlwind attack too...:D Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack? Yes, but keep in mind you cannot make the extra trip attempt for improved trip; the text of the whirlwind feat explicitly forbids such extra attacks.
tos_shai_hulud 04-04-07, 05:24 PM	If you had a fighter that did not have the disarm feat using a spiked chain they would get a +2 bonus in the attempt (from using a chain) and +4 for it being a two handed weapon - giving a grand total of +6 on the opposed attack role. Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??) If they are not within reach, they cannot make an attack of opportunity: An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Since you are making a disarm attempt from a non-threatened square, you provoke no attacks of opportunity when attempting a 10' disarm against a creature with a 5' reach. I have a question about trip too - if you have improved trip, on tripping your opponent you get an immediate second attack. For that second attack is the target treated as prone (as they have been tripped) or does the second attack come in before they are actually prone? If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Since you gain the extra attack only if you trip the opponent, they are tripped when your extra attack goes through, and therefore prone. If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack? Since it states that you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt, I would say yes, you still get the extra attack. So you can get a fighter with spiked chain and improved trip - some one moves into the fighters threat range trying to attack - the fighter responds with a trip attack and succeeds - foe goes down. Fighter gets a free second attack and makes a disarm attempt (+6 (+10 with improved disarm) vs the prone persons -4 on their attempt) disarms the foe. The foe probably has one standard action left - stand up or pick up their weapon? - they choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?). Fighters turn comes up and they trip the foe again, and get a free attack to waste the foe some.... can you 5foot steep while prone?? Yes to everything except the 5 foot step while prone. While prone, you can crawl for an entire action a distance of 5 feet, or you could stand up. Actually spiked chain would be really useful for a fighter with whirlwind attack too...:D Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack? Yes, since whirlwind attack allows you to make a melee attack, and trip, disarm, and sunder are all forms of melee attack, you can do any of them.
tos_shai_hulud 04-04-07, 05:26 PM	What Inigo Carmine said.
DarkNick 04-04-07, 06:27 PM	Excellent, cheers heaps guys. Now I can sleep at night. Inigo is a great name - like that swordsman from " the Princess Bride". "Hello, I am Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die." Oh, one more thought. If someone tried to trip you and you got the upper hand in the rolls and managed to trip them - would you then get your extra attack from improved trip? I think you would.
rmccowen 04-10-07, 04:55 PM	Oh, one more thought. If someone tried to trip you and you got the upper hand in the rolls and managed to trip them - would you then get your extra attack from improved trip? I think you would. Here's the relevant text of the Improved Trip feat: If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. And here's a quote from the section on making trip attacks: If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier)... If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. I would say no, Improved Trip doesn't grant you an attack if you successfully trip an opponent in reaction to his failed trip attempt. You can't make an attack "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt", because you didn't make an attack.
Leilond 04-11-07, 03:20 AM	I agree with you
Dazzer 04-11-07, 03:35 AM	Actually, the disarm attempt on the way down would have a larger bonus :D +4 Two-handed, +2 spiked chain, +4 prone target, +4 improved disarm (+14 total) and, -4 penalty on attacker for being prone However!! There is a counter to every awesome thing. If this spiked chain fighter ever encounters the following...his AoP never occurs (although on his round he's still brutal!) Spring Attack!! I move into melee spring attacking the spiked chain dude, the 5ft move to the side keeping myself in melee after I attack as the last part of the movement of my spring attack. I have moved before, and after my attack, and have not gone above my move action speed. I do NOT draw AoP's from spiked chain dude. So you can have a guy get into melee with the spiked chain guy really easily, once there it's tough to be sure, but with good opposed checks you'll be fine. (shield ward, combat stability, ranks in balance, locked gauntlet, balance boots, boots of stability, being a dwarf...all awesome) Go fighters! P.S. I hate spiked chain, they should all burn in the fiery pits of hell...with the kytons...if you want one...fight 1000 kytons for it...then maybe...MAYBE I'll let you take the feat for proficiency as well as letting you have one!
Tony Vargas 04-11-07, 07:19 PM	Normally in attempting a disarm you provoke an attack of opportunity, but if you are 10' away from your opponent and they don't have a reach weapon does this mean their attack of opportunity has no effect? (I suppose they could try to sunder the chain though.....??)Technically, there's no AoO, because you're not in thier threatened area. However, allowing an AoO to sunder or disarm the chain would be pretty reasonable. If you consider allowing that, also consider allowing it vs a monster with reach making an untrained grapple attempt to provoke - picture a giant trying to snatch up a sword-wielding hero with his bare hands: it's not hard to picture him getting a sword-wound to the hand that spoils the attempt. For that second attack is the target treated as prone Yes. If the trip attack was done as an attack of opportunity would the improved tripper still get their second free attack from the feat as an attack of opportunity specifies that it only allows single melee attack?Yes. choose to stand up (if the fighter had combat reflexes could they get another attack of opportunity at this point - it is a new opportunity?). Yes. Standing up is a sepparate opportunity from moving. Note that the victim is prone when he provokes, since he hasn't finished his 'stand up from prone' action yet, and suffers the penalties (though, being already prone, he at least can't be tripped again). can you 5foot steep while prone?Probably not. While prone, you presumably have to Crawl - a form of movement that allows you to move 5' as a move action which provokes - ick! Can you do trip and disarm attacks as part of your whirlwind attack?Yes. Though, due to the wording of WWA attack and Improved Trip are somewhat at odds. WWA states that you can't gain extra attacks while using it. Improved Trip states that the follow-up attack comes "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt." So, you could consider an Improved Trip (trip attempt + follow-up) to be effectively a single attack. Obviously, the safer (more restrictive) ruling is no follow-up attacks in the WWA.
tos_shai_hulud 04-11-07, 07:33 PM	Here's the relevant text of the Improved Trip feat: If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. And here's a quote from the section on making trip attacks: If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier)... If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. I would say no, Improved Trip doesn't grant you an attack if you successfully trip an opponent in reaction to his failed trip attempt. You can't make an attack "as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt", because you didn't make an attack. Of course, you are putting the emphasis on the second part of that statement. But, it doesn't trigger when you make an attack. It triggers when you trip an opponent in melee combat. It doesn't say if your attack succeeds and you trip your opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack..., it says that if you trip your opponent in melee combat. The fact that it occurs as if you hadn't used an attack is immaterial. You get an attack from it.
Kirano 04-12-07, 06:57 PM	If I'm getting all that was said, please imagine this... 4th-level fighter, medium humanoid (human) Str 18/+4 Dex 12/+1 Con 14/+2 Int 13/+1 Wis 8/-1 Cha 8/-1 6 Feats (Human, lv1, fighter1, fighter2, lv3, fighter4) Combat Expertise; Improved Trip; Improved Disarm; Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain); Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain); Combat Reflexes Base Attack Bonus +4, Strength +4, Weapon Focus +1, Materwork +1 Attack: Masterwork Spiked Chain +10 melee (2d4+6) Trip +14: +10(melee) +4(improved trip) Disarm +20: +10(melee) +4(improved disarm) +2(Spiked Chain) +4(2-handed weapon) If Disarm is performed as the free attack granted by Improved Trip, then it's at +24. And he has 2 attacks of opportunity. This build is 28 point-buy. Is that all good? And scary?
tos_shai_hulud 04-12-07, 07:05 PM	Trip +14: +10(melee) +4(improved trip) Disarm +20: +10(melee) +4(improved disarm) +2(Spiked Chain) +4(2-handed weapon) Disarm is correct, as that is an attack roll versus the enemy's weapon, but Trip is a Strength check: Trip +8: +4(str) +4(improved trip) You don't get to add in base attack bonus. You might be able to add in Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) since I have seen Weapon Focus (Grapple), so it might work to give you an extra +1 on the trip attempt bringing it to +9, but I don't think it makes as much sense for Trip as it does for Grapple.
Septuris 07-28-07, 04:08 PM	Disarm is correct, as that is an attack roll versus the enemy's weapon, but Trip is a Strength check: Trip +8: +4(str) +4(improved trip) You don't get to add in base attack bonus. You might be able to add in Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) since I have seen Weapon Focus (Grapple), so it might work to give you an extra +1 on the trip attempt bringing it to +9, but I don't think it makes as much sense for Trip as it does for Grapple. Why wouldn't you add the base attack bonus? A melee touch attack is a normal attack, including BAB + STR or DEX + any enhancements if using a weapon, against the opponents touch AC. Therefore a trip attack would indeed be at +14, not +8.
Marcus Majarra 07-29-07, 10:20 PM	Incorrect. The trip requires that you first make a melee touch attack (unarmed or with your weapon). This attack receives no bonus from Improved Trip. In the example above, it's made at +10. Once the melee touch succeeds, you need to make a Strength check, opposed by your opponent's Strength or Dexterity check (opponent's choce). Improved Trip grants you a +4 bonus on this check. As an ability check, it receives no help from your base attack bonus.