Post/Author/DateTime	Post
furby076 03-05-08, 08:29 PM	For party members who have displacement, mirror image, invisibility, blink, etc casted on them, what are the rules for other party members casting spells on them such as healing (a touch spell), or haste, etc? Does displacement, mirror image, blink, invisibility affect touch spells? Does invisibility prevent haste since the spell caster cannot see the target (is this even required)? Opinions welcome, but if you have solid writing from someone that would be even better.
Wih 03-05-08, 10:28 PM	Miss chance only comes into effect when an attack roll is needed - as beneficial spells don't need attack rolls (usually), miss chance doens't apply. However, if it was a touch spell with the Reach metamagic feat or some ability to make it a ray, then it would have a miss chance, as you need to make an attack roll in the situation. If the target is Invisible, the caster would still need to pinpoint the square he's in as usual though.
Tedronai 03-05-08, 11:39 PM	Miss chance only comes into effect when an attack roll is needed - as beneficial spells don't need attack rolls (usually), miss chance doens't apply. However, if it was a touch spell with the Reach metamagic feat or some ability to make it a ray, then it would have a miss chance, as you need to make an attack roll in the situation. If the target is Invisible, the caster would still need to pinpoint the square he's in as usual though. Actually, you need to be able to SEE the target (or use some other equivalent perceptual ability: blindsense/sight, tremorsense, etc.). Hearing them well enough to pick the right square, for instance, isn't good enough to 'target' them for anything other than an effect delivered by touch, ranged touch, or a normal attack roll. Beneficial spells delivered by Touch will merely be delayed, as the charge will, by default, be held, if the touch misses. That could be inconvenient, if the effect being delivered is some emergency healing, for instance, but is not itself disastrous, nor is the spell wasted. Blur and Displacement will make effects delivered by touch or ranged touch a problem, but other effects (such as Haste, which simply specify a target) will not be affected by them. Blink will be a big problem unless the spell is affected the Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat (which is asking a bit much, I'd say), though the Greater version, which allows the user to control the shifts to some degree might not, depending on the DM's interpretation. And Mirror Image is just rife with problems like this (for instance: what happens when you Fireball the area? the Images disappear as soon as they 'take damage', but 'react appropriately' to things like Fireball - a contradiction; disappearing is not reacting appropriately)
furby076 03-06-08, 11:05 AM	Miss chance only comes into effect when an attack roll is needed - as beneficial spells don't need attack rolls (usually), miss chance doens't apply. However, if it was a touch spell with the Reach metamagic feat or some ability to make it a ray, then it would have a miss chance, as you need to make an attack roll in the situation. If the target is Invisible, the caster would still need to pinpoint the square he's in as usual though. Do you have any documentation to reference this? For the miss chance only coming to effect when an attack roll is made.
Merestil Haye 03-06-08, 11:40 AM	And Mirror Image is just rife with problems like this (for instance: what happens when you Fireball the area? the Images disappear as soon as they 'take damage', but 'react appropriately' to things like Fireball - a contradiction; disappearing is not reacting appropriately)This misunderstands what Mirror Image says. The figment disappears if someone "attacks or or casts a spell at it." When you Fireball an area containing a Mirror Image, you are not "casting a spell at" the image. To do that you must select a target (so the spell must have a "Target:" entry in the header) or make an attack roll (for a Scorching Ray, for example). Area effect spells that happen to catch the image do not destroy the image.
furby076 03-06-08, 10:38 PM	According to my DM the PHB says that an ally can always touch their friend. But he is interpreting this as "unless something impedes their way" but he does not include things such as bracers of armor +8, ring of deflection +5 etc as those things, but things like blink, mirror image, displacement as those things. Personally, the PHB is fairly clear "always".
Wih 03-06-08, 10:58 PM	Actually, you need to be able to SEE the target (or use some other equivalent perceptual ability: blindsense/sight, tremorsense, etc.). Hearing them well enough to pick the right square, for instance, isn't good enough to 'target' them for anything other than an effect delivered by touch, ranged touch, or a normal attack roll. Not quite. You need to have Line of Effect for spells, not Line of Sight. See furthur down for more information. Here's where what I said came from: You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. It's only an attack if it's against an opponent. Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. Concealment only applies to attacks. If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). Total concealment also only applies to attacks against enemies. Also, it is possible to have Line of Effect but not line of sight - so any spell works. A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location. You can pinpoint a creature's square by making a listen check - if your buddy asks you to cast a spell on him, then you can hear where they are. And since total concealment only applies to attacks against enemies, once you know where he is you can touch him automatically. Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. You're not an enemy, and you're not attacking. Pretty much what it comes down to is that if you're doing a beneficial spell, the person will want you to touch them, and get tagged of his own will by extending an arm or somethign to get tagged.
Tedronai 03-07-08, 01:50 AM	Not quite. You need to have Line of Effect for spells, not Line of Sight. See furthur down for more information. Here's where what I said came from: AIMING A SPELL You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate. Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. Disagreements as to the effects of concealment aside, the selection of targets DOES require LoS.
Merestil Haye 03-07-08, 04:51 AM	Disagreements as to the effects of concealment aside, the selection of targets DOES require LoS.No, it does not. From the SRD :Target or Targets Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.Emphases mine. You are allowed to substitute touching the target for seeing it.
Tedronai 03-07-08, 11:47 AM	You're being purposefully obtuse, aren't you? All of that in reference and defence of THIS statement: Actually, you need to be able to SEE the target (or use some other equivalent perceptual ability: blindsense/sight, tremorsense, etc.). Hearing them well enough to pick the right square, for instance, isn't good enough to 'target' them for anything other than an effect delivered by touch, ranged touch, or a normal attack roll. emphasis added, of course